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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bigger front pulley... (fail)... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1334871333 Message started by Serowbot on 04/19/12 at 14:35:32 |
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Title: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/19/12 at 14:35:32 Well,... yes, I failed... Bought a Kawasaki LTD454 front pulley (25tooth)... (luckily only $5)... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley12.jpg Ground the front face flat. http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley002.jpg Ground the back face enough to allow the toothed washer to bite on the shaft teeth... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley008.jpg see the teeth?... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley011.jpg with washer... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley012.jpg Had to grind the rear cover bolt shaft for clearance. http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley005.jpg Here's the pulley mounted... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley015.jpg belt tension adjusted to here... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley014.jpg ... and these parts of the cover plate needed a slight grind. http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/pulley013.jpg Anyway... something was still catching somewhere, although I couldn't find it... Pulley spins freely with no rubbing until I put on the belt, then there is a catch every 180 degrees.. more on one 180' than the other... I may have had a bad pulley, (it had some amount of wobble, even though it shouldn't have been possible while mounted on the toothed shaft)... I suspect there is just enough difference in the shaft teeth, that it will allow this wobble... so, I decided not to run with it. Don't want to risk getting the shaft teeth eaten up... So,.. for me, it's a no go... worth a try, and no harm done,.. I just remounted the stocker... MMRanch did it successfully, but I didn't... Interested in hearing results if any others try... 50/50 results so far... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by greenmonster on 04/19/12 at 16:21:08 Was it a Kawasaki LTD454 that MMRanch used? I've been thinking about doing this. I have access to a lathe and a milling machine so other than the sprocket it's only going to cost me a bit of time. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/19/12 at 16:45:15 Yup... LTD454... EN500 is supposed to be the same... PS.. mine definitely slid on to the shaft easier than the stock one... I suspect micro-wiggle... If it does,... it will eat the shaft... :-?... I'm sure MM will report if he develops any problem... Might want to wait and see,... unless you feel adventurous... ...but, hey... somebody has to try these things... ;)... It takes a lot of grinding... lots!... excellent exercise... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Boofer on 04/19/12 at 19:41:11 Thanks, Serowbot. I priced a sprocket when my dealer had my bike pulled up onscreen last summer. About $90. But that was the guy from the back; not the owner, so who knows. Sadly they had trouble getting ATVs and bikes dried up in 2011. They dropped Suzuki and are selling the devil out of Polaris ATVs. Added a little gunshop in the back. Now if they just had recliners.... :) |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by runwyrlph on 04/19/12 at 20:04:12 BuMMER! I was ready to do this! MMRanch: did you notice any "microwiggle" or loosness of the shaft? |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by verslagen1 on 04/19/12 at 20:15:24 $5 ?... you lucky dog I found one for about $20, turned out to be scrap as the teeth were worn. To his credit he made good on it and refunded the entire cost. I may try JB weld on the teeth... later. Did you try to rotate the pulley on the shaft... maybe it's out of round. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Cavi Mike on 04/19/12 at 20:57:37 It's because the back side of the pulley wasn't perpendicular to the shaft. Something like that should be machined. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by MMRanch on 04/19/12 at 21:05:10 Well Guys Serowbot looks like you did a great job on making it fit and the pictures are Great ! I doin't know what to say ... I'm running mine .. At 55 on the speedo I pass everything on the two lane all the way to any of the local towns. I chucked it up in the lathe to take off the excess thickness in the middle , but !!! the thing is made of steel as hard as the tool steel cutter I tried to cut it with. So it was out with the angle grinder. While it was spinning in the lathe I took what I thought was .010 or .015" off the outside dia. kinda "Just to true-it-up sort of thing. The first time I started out with it there was a rub against the outer cover so I put a washer (1/4") between the cover and the case to make it stand out an extra .040" or so. Been happy with it every since. :) I put a new tire on this year : 140/90-15 comander II . There is only an extra .5" in the front right corner of the swing arm. but its plenty. I"m still somewhat perplexed about the noise comming out of the Head. OldFeller might have hit the nail on the head with an idea of Valve timing , I might have it one tooth to fast ??? :-? |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by verslagen1 on 04/19/12 at 21:10:41 one tooth off has been done before, but usually it keeps the speed below 50, maybe you've gone the other way. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by MMRanch on 04/19/12 at 21:16:01 Versey I'll meet ya on the Knock, Knock thread . going there now! :) Serowbot The difference has to be in the depth we took of the middle of the 25 tooth pulley. And it can only be a matter of less than .050" . I didn't do near as neat a job as you did , Just kinda eye-balled it in ! If its rubbing the case on the backside , then how about putting the Kawasaki splined washer behind it and taking the same distance off the front as to break even (minus a miro-wabble). Just guessing ??? :-? |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Routy on 04/19/12 at 22:14:37 Like was said, if the back side of the pulley is not machined true w/ the splined bore, the pulley is only going to run as true the grind job was. It must me machined true w/ the bore. If the pulley is too hard to cut w/ a carbide tool bit, then it must be machined using a tool post grinder. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/19/12 at 23:03:26 My thought is,.. with steel this sturdy,...(and it is just eyeball ground), but if the inner surface angle isn't true, the splined shaft won't allow the pulley to go off kilter... If it does,... it ain't as tight as the stock one... All theory, and guessing,... I just didn't feel comfortable risking it... If the shaft gets buggered,.. the engine is toast. But... I could have gotten a bad one... PSS... I originally went to the scrapyard last week, and the guy said $35... came back on the owners day off, and a different guy said he felt guilty charging me $5 for such a gruddy thing... Shop around,... and re-shop around... ;)... I'm not saying don't try it,... or do.... just relating my experience... I was originally photo-documenting to make a how to... with MM... Hope the pics still help anyone else trying it.. even fail pics might be helpful... Wish I'd had a lathe... I did it clamped in a workmate table walking in circles... Dizzzzzzy!!!.. ;D... PS... grinder boo-boo's really hurt!... much nastier than a straight cut... Tiny dig, on my left pinky... but my band buddies are going to call me a "pu$$y" this weekend... ;D ;D ;D ... and I am... (never run a guitar string into a cut, new realms of S&M...);D... Best luck... if results are good,... I may take another shot at it... Enjoy the experience,... of a bike that isn't a cookie cutter custom... Every mod on this site, is the result of experiment... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Cavi Mike on 04/20/12 at 02:02:12 3B2D3A273F2A273C480 wrote:
Don't make that assumption. The pulley would have to be press-fit in order to be snug enough to prevent it from wobbling due to the back side not being true, and even then, it could(would)) still very easily deform when you tighten the nut down. If the spline was longer, it would have less effect, but not on a spline that short. In this case, it's up to the back of the pulley to keep it spinning true. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by teabowl13 on 04/20/12 at 06:50:47 Serobot... Could you take the pulley you have now to someone who could grind it on a lathe now? What you've done so far looks so very close, it shouldn't take much off to get it just right; might be worth another shot at it, especially if it's working for MM... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/20/12 at 13:15:09 Hey guys,.. I've been out in the shop doing deep thoughts and some measurements... I think the consensus is correct... the inner surface needs to be trued on a lathe... I am surprised that the pulley can be cocked on the shaft, but that appears to be it... So,.. recommend if you try it... you need access to a lathe... I'm going to sit on this project for while and see if a lathe turns up in my sphere of influence... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by verslagen1 on 04/20/12 at 13:50:34 Alternate method chuck a large enough grinding stone in a drill press lay the pulley on the table and go at it hopefully the table is square ;D |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/20/12 at 16:47:34 Good idea, Versy... That sounds easier... What kind of bit?... Is there some kind of super tough metal routing bit?... (This stuff is very hard)... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/20/12 at 17:15:16 Go to a machine shop supply house & toss it on the counter & ask them what kinda tool would ya need in your drill press to do it. Ask if they know of a machine shop owned by a biker type,, sometimes people cut people some slack,, I had a guy drill something for me, took about 1/2 hour to set up & do it, cost me ten whole bucks,, & he had a bridgeport & that thing was struggling,, I had no idea that metal was so hard. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Cavi Mike on 04/21/12 at 00:50:23 A drill press isn't going to help with this. This needs to be done in a mill or a lathe. Without removing those side-plates, I would do this in a mill but seeing as you already ground away the only two surfaces I could have located against, I would have to do this in a lathe. This means the side plates have to come off and then attempt to reinstall the plates afterwards. The unfortunate thing is, unless you're friends with a machinist, this isn't going to be cheap. *edit* Looking at it again, I think I would use a mill. I think those side plates are straight enough to locate on. It would definitely be a LOT easier. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Routy on 04/21/12 at 07:06:14 If,.....as was said, the metal is too hard to cut w/ carbide, it must be ground w/ a very hi speed grinder !! Maybe the drill press idea isn't that far off, but it better be a super hi speed drill press, and even then the stone speed at and near the center is very slow. I have the lathe, and I have a very good die grinder, but I have never thought of making a tool post holder for the grinder,......maybe a good rainy day project ! JOG has the best idea ! |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Routy on 04/21/12 at 07:40:50 6C7A6D70687D706B1F0 wrote:
While you are better off finding a good used US made quality lathe, (good luck) don't underestimate what a China made HF lathe will do. The price is right, and they are cheaply made, but if you don't get in a hurry and "horse it" like you can a good lathe, it will serve the purpose for most projects just fine. I know I use mine far more than I ever expected, and in 8 yrs the only serious thing was I smoked the motor, not hard to do on any china stuff. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/21/12 at 07:49:55 Alrighty,... how about a high-speed router with a grinder stone bit and a flat plate with a hole in the middle mounted against the pulley for level... That stuff,... I got... (if the bit can go that deep)... PS..Routy,... isn't there some way to use my Raptor to fix this?... ;D... PSS... OHH! Neighborhood wide yard sale today! No telling what tools I might find.. :-?... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Boule’tard on 04/21/12 at 08:06:20 49465C475B5D4E4C444A5D2F0 wrote:
+1 I got one of those Grizzlys and it's not too bad. It had a minor oil leak and I had to send back one of the castings for replacement, but it has settled down into a pretty good groove now.. they just take some finessing. Back to the problem at hand.. yep I think the drill press w/grinding stone on a spindle is the best idea. Well, second best, the best being to show up at a machine shop with a 6-pack at about beer thirty.. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Boule’tard on 04/21/12 at 08:12:01 4650475A42575A41350 wrote:
That'd be hilarious if you chucked up the pulley in a lathe and clamped a raptor petcock in the bit holder, take a picture of that as if you were about to use the petcock as a machining tool. "SEE Routy?? The raptor CAN fix everything!!" ;D |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Routy on 04/21/12 at 08:39:15 Hey, what ever will work,...what can I say ! A router ?? better than a dies grinder,......if it has the reach,.....?? |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/21/12 at 08:53:44 Routy... it's better... because it's what I've got... I'd use a light sabre if I had one... (on second thought,.. that wouldn't work, would it)...:-?... (just realised... I'm talkin' routers with Routy)... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/12 at 08:55:36 As REd Green used to say "And remember,, any tool can be the right tool".. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/27/12 at 18:25:32 455A5C5B4641704070485A561D2F0 wrote:
Okay,.. now don't laugh but,.. (well, go ahead n' laugh)... ;D... ...but, I think this worked... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/beltgrind003.jpg http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/rerun/beltgrind004.jpg ... it'll be a while before I can remount it... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by verslagen1 on 04/27/12 at 18:30:01 I don't think you did it right. where's the duct tape? 8-) |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Serowbot on 04/27/12 at 18:34:15 5A495E5F404D4B49421D2C0 wrote:
;D ;D ;D... |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by teabowl13 on 04/27/12 at 19:22:04 Red Green is smiling down on you, brother! He'd be so proud! |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Cavi Mike on 04/27/12 at 20:07:14 2C3A2D30283D302B5F0 wrote:
Priceless. Ever heard of a site called There, I Fixed it. ? http://cheezburger.com/6167133440 |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Boule’tard on 04/27/12 at 20:43:27 7D6B7C61796C617A0E0 wrote:
..and your calipers look very scientific! ;D |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/27/12 at 20:59:52 I needed some washers to be smaller outside diameter, needed 6 of them,, ran a long bolt thru them, put a nut on the end & chucked it up in the drill press,, grabbed the grinder & fired the drill press up & worked them down, all the same diameter, all pretty danged round,This setup, with a grinder on a drill press is AWESOME!! I Love it! |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Sirimbaguayacol on 07/21/12 at 14:13:48 Well , I am new in the forum, but I've been using a kawasaki 454 LTD front pulley (25 teeth) for like 6 months and everything seems to be perfect , no noise from the belt , any false movement; I also put a 90/140 rear tire and with the mix of those two mods the bike runs smooth , faster, without vibration. I checked my speedometer while riding with a friend and when he was at 70 mph I was doing 59 mph at the same speed. For sure the front pulley mod works using a lot less rpms , you also can use a kawasaki en500 vulcan front pulley (1990-1995). And there is something that everyone with a savage or s40 should know, that if a pulley from a kawasaki 454 or en500 can be use in our bikes, we can use also the belt drive from them, wich I believe the one from the 454 is a litter shorter than ours , but the one from the en500 is like 3 or 4 teeth larger with the same pitch and everything. But there's more; I haven't done it yet , but I can bet that both kawasaki's spokeless rear wheels can be use in our bikes also, including rear brake hub and everything(this is gonna be my next mod) |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/21/12 at 14:48:08 Wow, I've got one of those "Make an electric drill into a drill press" thingies rusting away in the back yard. I'll have to rescue it for precision milling. Now to think of a good acronym for "CNC". THis is almost as good as the one from the HAMB where the hot rodder uses an angle sander to make whitewall tires. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Sirimbaguayacol on 07/21/12 at 15:52:44 Hi John, I recommend the work to be done in a lathe where there is no chance of error in the internal and external messurament, every side depth has to be the same as the original pulley to be able to work just fine. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Sirimbaguayacol on 07/21/12 at 16:00:05 I used a bench lathe for everything, the center of the pulley is made by a very hard material, but with pacience I finished the job. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by ralfyguy on 07/21/12 at 17:38:00 0933283337383B3D2F3B233B3935365A0 wrote:
Yes, a carbide lathe tool and a little patience should yield great results. I wish I could afford a real nice lathe. As a machinist with a different occupation, I DO miss running a lathe. If I had one, lots of things would be different on my bike by now. Including doing stuff for others. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by wambr on 07/20/13 at 11:09:03 now I repeated the same way... recently installed the same drive pulley from EN-454. I had to remove metal from both sides of the seat under the motor shaft. and I have no scratches on the cover... now the impression... of course after you install this pulley of the Savage was "less rich" when overclocking... Savage now not so wild. :) |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by wambr on 08/23/13 at 11:06:53 so, i draw a total of approximately 1000 or can more miles after installing bigger pulley.As I said, pulley came without any alterations and mileage is currently about 1,000 km in different speed modes... this upgrade is very good (in my personal feelings), if your trips are mainly outside the city.... inside the city's traffic was not very convenient, because the acceleration times are significantly lower. but at a suburban highway travel was much better. acceleration smooth calm and confident... well something like that... in General "to each his own" |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by wambr on 08/23/13 at 23:51:39 ..corrected some errors ... and about the feeling of an old motor my little Savage "sighed with relief" after such an installation. I do not run to the limit RPM now... about fuel economy(perhaps she is the place to be) I didn't notice because not asked for this purpose so far.. |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Gyrobob on 08/24/13 at 10:25:27 437962797D72717765716971737F7C100 wrote:
So,.. is the Kaw belt the same as an LS650 belt, but longer? (more teeth?) |
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by verslagen1 on 08/24/13 at 10:39:31 594A5D5C434E484A411E2F0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Bigger front pulley... (fail)... Post by Gyrobob on 08/24/13 at 10:51:40 4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:
[/quote] This might be useful on a RYCA bike with the 18" rear tire. -- There is only about 1/16" range where everything works. -- If I move the tire/wheel to the rear far enough for a comfortable amount of clearance on the swingarm, the belt is too tight at full compression of the shocks. -- If I move the tire/wheel far enough forward to make sure the belt won't get too tight, the tire rubs on the swingarm. A larger range of movement would be helpful. |
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