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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> fast,fast,fast ...please help. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1331035137 Message started by wolfsgrin on 03/06/12 at 03:58:57 |
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Title: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wolfsgrin on 03/06/12 at 03:58:57 Hi all glad to be a member of the forum. well I was a member a couple years ago but forgot my login info and old email so I renewed. Anyways I have a few questions about some performance mods that I want to do. I'll be coming into some cash and finally get to finish my bobber. It will probably never be finished as I'm always changing something. well here's what the plan is basically like this... 1 - Remove brass idle mix plug and tune to help backfiring/decel popping. 2 - Lancer jet kit/white spacer - tune the bike in stock form like it SHOULD be , not like the factory has it. 3 - Replace stock cannon muffler with something reasonable (Ie better flowing and better sounding) and repeat steps 1 and 2. 4 - Replace stock Air filter with somethign more free flowing to match the new muffler. Repeat steps 1 and 2 5 - Replace carb with Mikuni VM available most cost effectively from Lancer. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 6 - The real mods begin. At this point depending on what you HAVE to do to fix up your engine already you can go with a - overbore/wiseco piston, b - cam stage 1 or 2 available from Lancer, c - Both. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7 - Minimal head porting with a dremel. Probably wont require a whole lot of jetting change if you keep the stock header but you ought to do it anyway. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 8 - At this point you've probably spent more tinkering than you have invested in the initial bike purchase. In for a penny, in for a pound. Replacing stock header with something more open. Gunna have to be a 1 off or $400 Raask system from sweden. Repeat steps 1 and 2 9 - By now you're pushing about 45-50Hp (vs stock 26-30HP) at the wheel and running 0-60 in about 4-5 seconds...maybe a bit less. You're already in for a pound. You're already making every puffed up midlife-crisis Harley rider in your area get real pissed when you smoke 'em. You've got few tried and reliable options at this point. If you went with a stage 1 cam in step 6 you can trade up for a stage 2. If you went with a 95mm wiseco piston you can trade up to a 97mm. You COULD, if your resourceful, patient, and maybe cash laden procure a slightly longer connecting rod which would even further up the compression ratio from your already hi-comp wiseco piston. If you're even more cash laden and/or resourceful you might do an honest to god stroke job. You could have a profession porting job done. By this point you will have also replaced the stock clutch plates and springs with a barnett or OldFellers 6 plate method and are seriously cursing suzuki's stock cam chain set-up. You already know what you're doing now for the most part. We'll probably end up asking you questions as Lancer is the only member here who's gotten to #9. *1-4 done on to 5-9. I plan to have the cylinder bored for a 97mm wiseco-discontinued :( along with the carbide treatment. Install a stage 2 cam from webcam. Have the head polished and ported, intake and exhaust. Grab a Mikuni carb with ufo and dialAjet. Do the chain conversion 16/43. Upgrade to performance clutch and springs. And hmmm did I miss anything? Oh yeah, I know this is probably bass ackwards for the performance mods I'm doing but I'm also going to hard tail it to stretch the rear 4-5 inches and put a springer front end on it. Actually I believe the hard tail would be quicker on take off. But am willing to sacrifice any loss for that look. I basically want a crotchrocket killer. So here's my questions. 1. Can anyone tell me where to get a 97mm wiseco #4597MO9700? I have found one on lukesracing.com but for the clearance it states .003 for the 97, .002 for 96, and .??? for the 95. Am sure this should be .002 for 97mm. 2.Biggest MM Mikuni to fit my bike 36,38,40,bigger? ::) 3.After all these performance mods what do I need to do to my cam chain like the tensioner or chain or anything? 4.Is there any performance valves like wiseco titanium or I think they're called kebblewhite or something? Does this make a difference? 5. Say I would like to get more comp. and find a longer connecting rod and do a stoke job can or has this been done? Being a squared cylinder 94mmx94mm. Any Ideas on where I might find one. 6. Which would be better dialAjet or thunderjet with the two areas for fuel entry. 7. Knife edged crankshaft, what do you think? Or is there anything else in the cases I can mess with to squeeze out more hp or get more throttle response? 8. Is there anything else I can do to get this beast to hit 0-60 in 3-4 seconds? Well I'm sure I forgot something but that should do for now. I'm no mechanic at all, Clymers looks like rocket science to me, so sorry if I didn't call anything right or there's something I misunderstood most parts are a thingymajig to me. Thanks in advance for any help,advice or ideas you guys come up with. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Oldfeller on 03/06/12 at 04:35:14 Sv650 stock will out horsepower a heavily modified Savage. Out handle it too. If your legs are long enough and young enough (flexible) for the crotch rocket seating style that is. Any 600 cc in line four racer-replica bike will kick the ass of a SV650 by the same margin the SV650 will do to a heavily modified Savage. The money you are going to spend on modifying a Savage to that degree (knife edged crank ???) would be better spent on another bike. This would get you closer to fast fast fast much faster. You have read a lot of stuff about how to do it, but first you have to ask yourself the question IF you should do it. Hard fact is that a real Savage Frankenstein bike (Savage very heavily performance modified) has proven here on the list to have a pretty short service life before self-destructing in some varying fashion. We love watching folks build SuperSavage engines and frames and such -- but you need to talk to Lancer if you want to pursue this goal seriously as he has something up in the lab under a sheet you might be interested in buying (to shorten your journey a good bit and get you there much faster faster faster) ;D ;D ;D I loves these young people .... so much energy |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/06/12 at 07:18:07 If I was gonna spend that much time & $$$ on working to drag performance out of something, I think Id spend it on something that will have some real power when I was done. The BEST youll get out of this engine is less than stock in the performance bike market, & then it will puke on your ankles. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Retread on 03/06/12 at 08:09:50 1. Take bike down to local used bike store.. 2. Trade it for an old GS1150E... 3. Mod it and take everything on the street..... 8-) |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wedge98 on 03/06/12 at 08:52:56 I am also going to upgrade my savage engine as I want to get some more power out of it but it will never touch a crotch rocket. Let me tell you why: Here are my three crotch rocket/naked bikes: 2007 Aprilia Tuono 1000R - 1000cc V2 - 122hp/70ft-lbs torque at 450lbs 2004 Suzuki GSX-R 750 - 750cc I4 - 125hp/40ft-lbs torque? at 425lbs 2004 Suzuki GSX-R 600 - 600cc I4 - 100hp/35ft-lbs torque? at 400lbs These are fast bikes but nothing compared to the new stuff below: 2012 Kawasaki ZX-10R - 1000CC I4 - 192hp 2012 BMW S1000RR - 1000CC I4 - 190hp with traction control 2012 Ducati 1199 Panigale - 1200cc V2 - 195hp/98ft-lbs at 415lbs, Traction control, ABS, electornic suspension, and beautiful Savage does not have a chance against any of these bikes but you do not buy a savage for speed. You buy it for fun. My aprilia breaks 60mph in first gear and has 5 more to go after that.... so I can't legally have fun on the street. The savage lets me have fun without losing my license or getting killed. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wedge98 on 03/06/12 at 08:56:12 and for more on the new Ducati(aka the new king of sportbikes right now), here is the wiki entry on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_1199_Panigale Google it for drool worthy images. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Serowbot on 03/06/12 at 08:59:28 23313033316D6C540 wrote:
Yup,... I drive my Metro like a Ferrari at Monza,... and I just barely keep up with traffic... Fun, fun, fun.... I got speeding ticket in it once... Proudest day of my life... :-?... |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/12 at 09:16:07 It seems to me that with all them horses in the stable... you're not looking for HP. The savage is already a torque monster. You ought to be looking to make it light weight. That and a carb, muff, cam, and some mild porting and you'll have a bike that'll rip your arms off. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by teabowl13 on 03/06/12 at 10:33:30 I have to say... for all the work you're planning to do, if real power gain is what you're after, I'd be tempted to pull a SV650 motor out of some kids wrecked bike and stuff that into your bobber frame. I'm sure you cold have one for cheap. Maybe even a DR650? (i don't know how much difference there is between these two, but I know I've seen guys build cafe bikes and street trackers out of them...) But I have to say also; this sounds like a case of Savage Love. If you simply love this machine, and want to get the most out of it you can, then go for it, but bear in mind that what OldFeller said hold true for almost all bikes: There's only so much blood you can get from a stone. "Hard fact is that a real Savage Frankenstein bike (Savage very heavily performance modified) has proven here on the list to have a pretty short service life before self-destructing in some varying fashion." Good luck, and show us the results! |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by 12Bravo on 03/06/12 at 12:12:52 Doesn't the DR650 use the same jug as the LS650? I thought that when people buy over-sized pistons that they are actually buying ones marketed for the DR650. Since the LS650 Savage/S40 has so much low end torque, it seems like trying to make it a fast race bike is about the same as trying to hot rod a tractor. ;D It can be done but is it worth the investment. Shoot, no matter what I could do to my S40 to make it faster, it still wouldn't beat my Suzuki Burgman 650 off the line or on top end speed. And the Burgman is a scooter. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wolfsgrin on 03/06/12 at 13:17:55 Thanks guys. Maybe I should have said harleykiller instead of crotchrocket but I believe once I finish these mods I could put some 250 ninjas down and keep up with the 600's for a lil bit. Yes I love my savage it was my first bike. Everyone says I won't get the money back that I put into it and should just buy another bike. Those people haven't ridden a savage. :). So anyword where to get a 97mm piston? Or how big of a mikuni I can get? Well gotta go to work? I'll check back later. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/12 at 14:02:01 search 4597M* wiseco for all the pistons. lancer has a big bore kit in the marketplace which is really the way to go. I think VM38 is recommended but check out truckinduc's build thread... something like "my savage" think he had a TM40 from a harley. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Oldfeller on 03/06/12 at 14:39:00 Hurley killin' -- yup a Savage can surely do that, especially up in the mountains. Gots a group of Savage riders that goes up there every year to the Dragon and does Hurley's fer breakfast, lunch and supper. Key to the trick is location, location, location. Put the hurley in a curvy place where he has to slow down for every turn and you can eat his ass inside his turn radius at will in every turn where he goes wide due to his excess mass and speed. (and that is every turn, btw) Or you can just run them into the ground as the primary chain sprockets will come off the splines or something else very basic in the hurley design will give up under the constant on-off stress of mountain riding. ;D Savage them durn hurleys any durn way you can, that's our motto .... Deux un coup is the current highest instant kill count that was confirmed by reliable witnesses like MMRanch and Lancer. Sparky Sparky left ... Sparky Sparky right ... Sparky fun fun fun ... The most wonderful thing about hurleys is with Granny there can be only one !! |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wedge98 on 03/06/12 at 15:07:34 7F67646E7B6F7A6166080 wrote:
Yes you will certainly take down 250cc bikes ;) 600s..... you will beat them off the line unless their rider has an awesome start. Once they hit the higher rpms, it's over. I would love to see your bike vs a stock sv650. The sv650 is a really solid bike and I think it would be a very close race. The DR650 is a different motor.....I wish it was the same as they have some huge big bore kits for it and they can be pushed up to 54hp/50ft-lbs of torque. If I had to drop a motor into the frame, I would drop the sv650 or sv1000 motor in there. the sv1000 would net about 115hp/60 ft-lbs of torque. Though you would need dual disk brakes and much better suspension to keep it under control. Actually, that is a really bad idea in general...ignore that thought... |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Oldfeller on 03/06/12 at 16:05:38 The Suzuki 90 degree 1,000cc twin was nicknamed "Widowmaker" for a good reason, you know. It outran its own brakes and handling. The SV650 is a longer wider engine than the Savage that requires a dual tube frame with the 90 degree jugs coming out the frame in two axis -- it ain't ever gonna fit in a Savage frame, ever. SV650 has dual front brakes for a reason, as it top ends circa 120 mph at 74hp stock. The Savage however is a primo granny sickle, just learn to love it for what it is and what it can do. 'Fat ol man on a granny sickle' is a turrible turrible thing up there in the mountains -- other folks instantly believe their bike is faster & better and they ride themselves right on off the road trying to beat it (with really surprised looks on their faces ....) Sparky, Sparky Sparky, Sparky Sparky fun fun fun (the Tiger song) Sparky to the right of him, Sparky to the left .... (stuck in the middle with you) .... very powerful bikes are a hindrance in the mountains, they manage to pass you on the little bitty straights and then they are going way too too fast for the next turn. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/06/12 at 16:21:34 What would you think about a kawa 250? The dont look like a guy would need a chiropractor after 20 miles & you could play hard & not go to jail.OR hospital |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Retread on 03/06/12 at 16:40:39 Rider input has a lot to do with what a bike will do.. You guys are bad mouthing Harley, thinking that the Savage can take one in the twistys, think about one word, "Buell"... I like the little Savage for around town puddle jumping, love the lowend torque, but highway? Anything over 55 is going to wear you out in about 30 minutes.. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by 12Bravo on 03/06/12 at 16:59:30 75425355424643270 wrote:
You are absolutely right, the rider has just as much to do with it as the bike does. I would beat my brother on his 883 with my S40 every time. It's all reaction time. When I REALLY want to mess with Harley riders, I use my scooter ;D About a 3 hour ride is all I can take on the S40 but it handles the super slab just fine for me |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Oldfeller on 03/06/12 at 17:54:05 Buell was Buell before hurley bought it. S&S had more to do with pre-hurley buell engines than hurley did before hurley bough the marque. Hurley has now scrapped the marque and all the existing bikes so now there IS no Buell the marque and Buell the man has a no-compete contract clause that still has 5 years left until the Buell the man's bikes can live again (under a different name, of course). Hurley is left with the 1200 cc Sportster as their hot bike now. Both Lancer and MMRanch have tried Sportsters during Dragon time, the relatively low power relatively heavy 883 wasn't fast enough and the 1200 cc didn't do curves well enough to beat a Savage. Retread, you simply know not of what you speak when you say hurleys can beat a Savage in the mountains. T'ain't so. We beat repeatedly and wore out & broke the 1200 cc Sportster that MMRanch rode to the last dragon run. Open highway yes (if MM could get out of second into third gear he could pull away from a Savage), but on curvy mountain roads, no not a chance to do so. He'd break his rear tire free in second gear trying and have to shut it down. Mrod has never ridden against us, but it has even greater weight and more brutally acting acceleration which plays against it in the fast mountain twisties. We have never even seen an Mrod ridden fast up in the mountains, ever. 100+ hp Mrod would likely smoke itself in second gear and spit you right off the mountain trying to go fast up there. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Retread on 03/06/12 at 19:19:16 Old feller. I know the Buell brand is no longer being made, but IF you tried to run a Savage against a Buell XB or an 1125R you would experience a very short vision of a Buell tailight as it dissapeared in front of you... If you have worked on the Buell powerplant you would find it is a basic Hurley V twin with hot cams, head, and chips.... |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wolfsgrin on 03/07/12 at 00:57:39 Thanks Verslagen. Will this piston work? 97mm, I think it should. It says 3.00mm oversize and I think I got it confused with the bore tolerance .002 to.003. .002 being the right one. http://lukesracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc? Also will this mikuni work? Just bolt straight on with no conversion kit or anything? Were these not like $300-350 a couple years ago. I remember Lancer had the kits for this and cam for a great deal but I missed out. There is a mikuni chart if you scroll down. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mikuni-Carburetor-Cpt-38mm-Spgt-Vm38-9-Round-Slide-Vm-Series-38-Mm-Carburetors-/220950819928?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3371b1f458&vxp=mtr Anything I can do or get for the cam chain setup and where to look? Thanks again for everyone's help. I will post some pics of my build so far tomorrow. I still have to set up a photobucket account. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by LANCER on 03/07/12 at 04:06:32 4E56555F4A5E4B5057390 wrote:
The Dr650 and LS650 shared a common piston in the 90-95 model years, so Wiseco pistons for the DR650 for those model years will work in all LS650 model years. They were produced in 95, 96 & 97mm sizes but the 97 has been discontinued. One will show up on ebay on a rare occasion, otherwise 95 & 96's are all that are available now. The 1996 and later DR650 engines are a new animal with shorter stroke and larger bore. I have seen aftermarket pistons up to 103mm for that engine. Just keep in mind that for the LS650 engine the largest functional bore is 97mm. There is not enough room to go any larger but that is ok, 97mm gives just a hair under 700cc. That alone adds about 0.5 to the compression ratio and with the Wiseco piston with its raised piston crown the effective overall CR is bumped up to the 10.5:1 range...and that is a significant increase over the stock 8.5:1 and adds a very noticeable snap to engine response. Regarding the Mikuni VM carbs. They are the best bang for the buck of any new replacement carb on the market for the LS650. I have spent 10 years testing a bucket full of carbs and a 36mm VM (along with a few Amal round slides I found some years back) is as good a carb as you can put on this engine. It is relatively cheap to buy and jets/parts are easy to find and cheap as well. The 38mm is a few bucks more, but has no power advantage over the 36mm and the 36mm has better low-midrange responsiveness because the smaller carb bore creates higher air velocity of incoming air and thus better responsiveness. The VM carb does require a different rubber mounting flange and a custom throttle cable to match the hand throttle on the bike (there are 3 different types for different model years of the LS650) and the carb end of the cable. Of course, different jets are needed for this carb to work on the LS650 as apposed to the standard jets included in the carb as it comes new from Mikuni. The jets needed for the LS650 varies depending on the setup of a particular bike; like muffler, header/muffler, bore, camshaft, compression ratio, head porting, etc. That's why I put the Performance Carburetor Kit together; folks kept asking for something they could use to make the same type of mod for themselves. There are: Performance Carburetor Kits Stage 1 & 2 Performance Camshafts High Compression Big Bore Kits JETSETS ** Prototype header being manufactured for testing; will post info, photos, etc when I have it in hand. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by teabowl13 on 03/07/12 at 08:04:46 If you haven't found it already, you should check out this guy's build.... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1264727267/0 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wedge98 on 03/07/12 at 08:18:04 I used to own a 2000 Suzuki TL1000R (the predecessor to the SV1000). It was one heck of a machine and with upgraded brakes from braketech, it stopped better than any machine I have ever owned. However, the bike was unstable and tank slaps were as common as tar snakes. The bike and I had a love-hate relationship. I loved her to death and she hated me. I ended up on the ground three times(2 high-sides, 1 low-side) on that bike and should have been down many more times if not thanks to my aftermarket steering stabilizer and luck. That all being said, I now own the best handling bike I have ever ridden(I've ridden 30+ bikes thanks to demo rides at bike week), an Aprilia Tuono. The bike is another 1000cc V-twin but handles like a 600. Super smooth, flickable, and confidence inspiring(spinning the rear wheel on a turn going up a hill just puts a smile on my face now as I ride it out). If you ever get a chance to demo ride one, do it. You wont regret, though your wallet might. ;) |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by wedge98 on 03/07/12 at 08:50:47 4372767578607B2624170 wrote:
wow....that is a very talented guy. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by Finney138 on 03/07/12 at 12:42:15 wolfsgrin that 97 from lukes is not available, i put in the order and got an email2 days later saying it wasnt there. your going to have to find a place that has one on their shelf which is easier said than done. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by dr1445 on 03/07/12 at 15:05:10 if you want more info on the mikuni tm or keihin fcr pumper carbs there is a ton of info over at thumper talk on the dr suzuki site. there is even info on efi setups for your 650 4t single. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/25-dr/ just use the search function. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by KellyKrameyK on 04/22/12 at 20:28:55 63717073712D2C140 wrote:
Yes you will certainly take down 250cc bikes ;) 600s..... you will beat them off the line unless their rider has an awesome start. Once they hit the higher rpms, it's over. I would love to see your bike vs a stock sv650. The sv650 is a really solid bike and I think it would be a very close race. [/quote] Currently I ride a CBR1000RR, but previously had a CBR600 and a Ninja 650R, which is very similar to the SV650. I'm in this forum because I'm now building a Savage cafe, a bike I first had at 15 in 88. I hate to tell ya, but there's no way the Savage could beat a 600 sport bike off the line..unless the 600 rider missed a gear or stalled it. If the SV was anything like the 650R, and I think it was, the Savage would probably beat it off the line but the sv would come back in 'bout 4th gear and that Savage would bite the dust on that top end. I appreciate the Savage for what it is...but a "killer", HD or otherwise, it's not. |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by teabowl13 on 04/22/12 at 20:46:49 I have to add also, that no matter what the TOP speed, I've always enjoyed riding the most on twisty back roads going 55-60 or so MPH. I rode a 2000 Kawi ZRX1100 (Eddie Lawson Replica) for 7 years and loved it, but I never reved it anywhere near its redline. Sure I ran it up to 100mph once or twice, just to say I did it, but that's about it. I've really been thinking about that in terms of my Savage build; and where the real strength of this engine lies is in the torque; low and middle range power. That's the whole reason I wanted to build my bike out of a Savage in the first place! Sure, I'm going to do a few simple upgrades to my Roadster, but if I really wanted a crotch-rocket, I'D GO BUY ONE!! |
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Title: Re: fast,fast,fast ...please help. Post by KellyR on 04/22/12 at 20:57:12 0C3D393A372F34696B580 wrote:
Exactly. This is a case of "It is what it is" being a good thing. It's a great lil bike that's easy to repurpose and a blast to work on, even here in the early stages of my project. |
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