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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> synthetic oil? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1330140136 Message started by dozerman on 02/24/12 at 19:22:16 |
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Title: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 02/24/12 at 19:22:16 Hey fellas, I was wondering if I can run synthetic oil in the engine? Being the clutch , tranny, and engine are all using the same oil. Will the clutch slip? If I can use it , what kind of synthetic oil are you using? Thanks, Rich :) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/24/12 at 19:55:01 "Earl, issat you buddy? I think I can hear somebody talking with a Canadian accent but my ears are all gone now." ...... wounded veteran of the list oil wars, hopping around on one leg while groping for the face of the person speaking so he can see who it is .... http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3253C/mini/8120031_sll_5079769_pri_mini.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by SuperSavage on 02/24/12 at 20:29:03 Just like oldfeller's pic, I'm running Rotella T6 in both my bikes and unfortunately, the secret's out - It's always out of stock at the local Walmart! That should be your first clue... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Wake51 on 02/25/12 at 00:09:40 Yes! You can run anything that is non-energy saving.... Synthetic... Conventional... Suzuki...Rotella... Valvoline... 5W-15W-40... If you have a specific that is somewhere in this range you're going to kill the bike before the oil does. Yes I'm a greenhorn.. but I believe my non-bias here serves a heavy purpose before the brand loyal junkies get to ya, ;) Not that there is a thing wrong with that! We stick with what works. But pick an oil that meets specs and spend your time fretting over maintenance issues that matter ocne you do pick an oil. (Which I'm sure you will quickly... synthetic is fine but offers an insurance on this non high performance bike that isn't necessary just like my K&N isn't necessary but makes me feel better) The place to spend your time is carb jetting and when to upgrade to the verslavvy mod. Good luck in your search! ;D *This is a Greenhorn's opinion, I'm not saying to disclaim the oil suggestion of the experts' here, I've used Rotella T and it has worked great. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by 12Bravo on 02/25/12 at 05:39:51 What ever oil you decide to use, make sure that it meets the JASO MA standard for motorcycle use. Unfortunately what oil to use can turn into a very heated discussion around here. There are quite a few of us that do use Rotella T without any problems. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 02/25/12 at 09:08:23 The reason I was asking is I run Amsoil in my Harley , but my clutch has its own oil and so does the tranny. (3 different oils) . I want to use amsoil but I am woried the clutch will slip. I know the amsoil will lubricate the tranny and engine well. I just wondered if the clutch was compatable. Thanks again ,Rich |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/25/12 at 09:12:35 I didn't have any clutch issues with the amsoil I used. but didn't use it beyond a couple of changes. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by SuperSavage on 02/25/12 at 09:52:00 12Bravo is correct, JASO MA is all you need. It could all be in my head, but my s40 was at a dead heat with my buddy's vstar 650, prior to it, I lagged past 55mph. The additive package seems to reduce the friction and the bike definitely ran cooler. I told a few guys and gals at a local Moto get together and now they all use it. Dumb me... Amsoil is great stuff, but it's $$$$$$$$$ |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 02/25/12 at 11:09:39 Thanks guys!!!! Rich :D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/25/12 at 11:12:57 Amsoil for motorcycle would be well worth the extra money,You should always use and oil made for motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/25/12 at 11:13:42 As the folks have mentioned, the Savage doesn't really require the high temp characteristics of a synthetic oil, although many here (including me) do use it as "bulletproofing" on an air cooled engine in case of thermal abuse. Biggest thermal abuse cases have been folks idling the bike at a standstill for over half an hour, btw, which isn't where you would think that you would find the most terrible thermal abuse cases. Use any JASO MA or MA2 rated oil, most of us tend to go with Rotella as it has a good rep as bike oil on many many motorcycle sites. And since a lot of us use it (and abuse it) the collective knowledge is that is is "good oil". It has been proven in our many many oil wars as being as good or better than Amisol or Klotz in our simple motorcycle's engine (which is the only test bed that counts for us). Rotella is less expensive than the big ticket boys stuff by about half and it does "as good or better" in our own oil war testing. ;D ;D ;D ;D Bill, are your fingers broken, or what? Whut ails you, where is you? Now, before any of you go volunteer to do any testing, do you have the thermocouples and test devices to do live temperature recording of head temperature and sump temperature and ambient temperature? Verslagen, we may need a Tech Index listing that points back to that "oil war of all oil wars" so we can simply point each new person back there to review the information instead of hobbling out here in our crutches time after time after time again. Especially if Bill has done quit holding up his other side of things ..... telling the newbie that spending over double for Amisol is "well worth the money" as if it was his money that would be getting spent. Bill is a Klotz man (always has been) and had never ever used Amisol in his Savage ever. Hey Bill, Amisol publishes lots of data, you can at least tell what's in it and it IS good stuff by both ingredients, testing and specifications (unlike Klotz which publishes bupkiss). You might have a fighting chance oil warring with Amisol (mebbe) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/25/12 at 11:25:28 383336366C6D5A0 wrote:
what happened to bill? :-? http://smileyicons.net/s/837.gif Must of sold his stock |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/25/12 at 11:38:21 Consider the one leg, crutches, no ears, completely blast blinded -- and those were the people that won the last oil wars ..... Think of what shape Bill must be in after losing each war, time after time. Plus, he can't ever plug Klotz without supporting facts ever again (that was his sentence). (but he could say lots of factual things about Amisol -- data exists on Bob is the Oil Guy and other sources as well) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by 12Bravo on 02/25/12 at 12:02:14 I have used Amsoil in my bike and then switched to Rotella T and haven't noticed any difference in how the engine runs/performs. And Rotella states on the jug that it DOES meet JASO MA standards. Dozerman, Amsoil won't hurt your clutch at all. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/25/12 at 13:51:23 But I go one step up from Amsoil to Klotz Racing oil,Its 0 wear oil. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/25/12 at 14:15:15 What is zero wear oil? Answer: fresh $13 a quart oil in the sump of a bike that never gets ridden |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/25/12 at 14:28:39 :-? that'll leave a mark |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/25/12 at 14:32:38 Zero means no wear. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Boule’tard on 02/25/12 at 14:52:24 I just scored a 6-pack of Amsoil for 36 bucks 8-) The dude switched from Harleys to Triumphs and wanted to reduce viscosity from 20W-50 to 10W-40, therefore he felt he had to re-buy his whole supply. Amsoil is way better than Klotz anyway. It's a negative wear oil. Yes, a smart oil that intelligently expands the metal in your engine to fill the gaps where needed, restoring it to better-than-factory condition! When people ask me how many miles are on my bike, I reply -3840. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Cavie on 02/25/12 at 15:27:22 Any oil will do fine as long as the the bottom outside ring of the circle stateting what it meets is empty. Do not use energy saving anything. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Borracho on 02/25/12 at 17:12:06 I really like to baby my motorcycle. So I use baby oil in the engine. ;) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/25/12 at 22:28:33 Now oil weight is a good discussion point to hash over. Car makers are really going for CAFE mileage now days by saying you have to use very light super low friction dino 5w20 oil in the newest of the economy cars. Honda and Ford are saying this, so we are talking the biggies going this super light oil route for "the best gas mileage" to meet CAFE and compete in the sticker mpg wars. Oil shear takes place in every new sump of oil, plus some gasoline gets into the chemistry over time too causing most sumps to drop nearly 10 weight points on the big number before you change it out at the end of life. We know this sort of thinking applies to Hurley dino oil because they count on the hot running rear cylinder's natural action when they insist on 20w50 oil for a Hurley. Our Savages don't really get all that hot in high summer heat and do just fine with 10w40 weight dino oils. We do know that 20w50 runs hotter in the head and in the sump by 2-3 degrees but this is a very small fractional change from a 5w40 weight oil and some simply say "so what?" about it as the small change in gas mileage is well within the wrist factor they currently live with. Are we getting any extra wear out of the latest car standard 5w20 oil weights? I dunno. Honda and Ford are also putting "mathematical formula based" oil life sensors on the new light oil cars that monitor rpm, miles driven, injector flow, engine heat and all the other data these new cars collects in the computer to tell you "percent of oil additives used up" out on the dash in a light bar display. They are telling you to keep the oil in the sump longer, in other words as dumping the oil too early is extra pollution and is a bad thing. People are commonly getting 200,000+ miles out of a car now days. Oil is getting better and better plus better engine mgf methods are getting cleaner and better. Nobody sand casts an engine any more, nobody. Heck, I remember seeing sand in the pan on an old V-8 engine, but you aren't going to see many of those any more as we roll forward into the future high mileage future. The energy star mark on the jugs isn't all that obvious any more -- it isn't a sales point any more as it is EXPECTED and REQUIRED on most all car oils nowadays. JASO MA/MA2 jug markings are about the only reliable way to avoid clutch slip causing additive packages. This rating marks the line cleanly between bike oils and car oils, clutches that slip early and those that don't. Any vendor who sells to both cars and bikes will have the correct JASO markings on the bike jugs and all of them will have lots of car stuff sitting right next to it to cause you to goof up if you aren't paying attention. Walmart now has a bike section where the bike oils are kept segregated from the car stuff. Lots of $8+ a quart oils in the bike stuff -- if you are nice and flush then knock yourself out on the pretty cans. Old cagey people like me roll the cart on down to the diesel section and pay less than $4 a quart for dino oil or less than $6 a quart for synthetic by buying the JASO marked Rotella products from the diesel section. Rotella has climbed in price the last 2-3 years because it has become that well known and popular -- it was a good bit cheaper before it became one of the most popular bike oils in the world. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/25/12 at 22:56:26 And now the difficult stuff, the flat tappet situation. Our Savage engine was designed in the 70's-80's and uses the flat rocker tappets that were common in that era. These designs have a contact line that runs across the tappet face as the cam rolls on by that is loaded beyond what any oil film can survive at high RPMS. But this was common back then. ZDDP (zinc/phosphorus boundary film agents) were put in oils at .12 to .18 percent of oil weight so it could bond to exposed ground metal surfaces to give a "failure boundary" that kept galling away in those high load areas where the oil film would fail under high RPM stress. All oils had it, it was expected and required by the early SAE oil rating system designations. Over the next 40 years catalytic converters became common, and they hate ZDDP as it "poisons" them to some undefined but known to be real degree. But so does lots of miles of road use and cat converters do become useless long before the car does. Still, oil makers were told to cut down on ZDDP in car oils to less than .08 percent and to "make it up" with moly and other non-boundary friction modifiers (the star in the energy star on the car oils). Bike clutches began to slip and "wear out early". Cam chains stopped lasting the life of the bike. Flat tappets and cams began to fail. This hit our Savages and we figured out ways to fight it that didn't involve replacing the clutch plates all the time as we were starting to do. We still have the cam chain and cam/tappet issues though -- that isn't readily fixable (although we developed ways to get a second life out of the cam chain). Oil is half of this battle -- don't use car oils in your motorcycle as they are formulated to slip in your clutch plates AND to prematurely wear out your cam chain, cam and the flat tappets with normal car oil use. Use JASO rated bike oils with high ZDDP numbers (over .1% or 10,000 parts per million depending on how they want to state it) .... or simply use Rotella JASO rated diesel oil as it meets all the requirements of Savage use, has all the things you need and does not have any of the things that kill your clutch. Keeps your cam and tappets happy too .... Note that Amisol proudly displays all its additive contents very completely and it IS good stuff -- it is just some very expensive good stuff. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/25/12 at 22:59:11 777A60797061746771150 wrote:
Best post Ive seen in a LOONG time. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/26/12 at 07:11:32 My two cents, for what its worth.. I am an Amsoil dealer, but on older design small engines I'll go with Castrol GTX 10-40 everytime.. It gives me more bang for my buck.. I use the Amsoil in my Cummins, my Jeep, and my TDI, I feel it give me the best bang for my buck there.. After tearing down bike after bike for the last twenty years, I can honestly say that in 99% of the cases of engine damage it is not oil related, but rider abuse... Use what you like, change it every season, and get out and ride... 8-) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Routy on 02/26/12 at 08:01:06 I'm still from the old school belief,......a few ozs of "the racers edge" in every oil change will literally keep engine/camshaft wear to zero. It saved thousands of soft chev camshafts 25 yr ago,......it'll still save'm today. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/26/12 at 08:57:40 Klotz oil needs no additives.Some here put additives in rotella to try to make it work in motorcycle engines. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dasch on 02/26/12 at 09:20:02 Hehehehe, never cave in, never!! :) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/12 at 10:19:34 Wups, Bill done told the truth -- so it's time to give him some positive affirmation. What Bill said was true, btw -- I did use a ZDDP booster on top of Rotella because I have the very hottest cam grind that exists for a Savage engine and it required a break in regimen of 18,000 PPM on the ZDDP for the first 500 miles. Web Cam, the folks that did the grinding stated a preference for 18,000 PPM of ZDDP for a break in oil during the first 500 miles, so rather than buying some dino based racing oil I bought a bottle of synthetic based Red Line ZDDP booster and used a full shot glass per RotSyn oil change until the bottle ran out. This boosted me (fully synthetic) from 10,000 PPM to over 18,000 PPM of ZDDP during like quadruple the required break in miles. Now I use straight stock Rotella T6 and I will continue to do so until somebody identifies something that works better at the same sort of price/value ratio. Bill, we are still waiting fer something better ..... got any candidates? Bang for the buck while meeting the Savage's real world (slightly antique) oil additive requirements .... that's whut defines a good oil fer us. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by thumperclone on 02/26/12 at 10:36:45 amsoil here for th last 8k.. lil marvel mystery in every other tank of gas or so to keep the petcock issues at bay.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/26/12 at 11:26:56 bill sort of told the truth? Klotz does not publish the amount of ZDDP in their oil. So we would need to add twice as much to meet the requirements of Web Cam. RotSyn is JASO MA rated and that is all that is required by suzuki. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/12 at 13:03:56 Bill was trying to refer to what I really actually did with Rotella Syn, not to what he should do (conditional tense) but doesn't plan to do with his Klotz (should he ever happen to have a hot cam that is). Remember, the language he speaks is Billish -- future intent is stated in the present or past tense as in Billish as there is sometimes no difference between future possible intent and fact. Billish statements can sometimes be confusing that way. When he talks in future conditional tense as to what newbies "should do" I can sometimes get really really confused when translating. ======= we can try a direct question if you want to ====== Bill, if you were running a hot cam that requires 18,000 parts per million of ZDDP during break in -- which Klotz product would you use? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by MMRanch on 02/26/12 at 19:46:20 VvvvveeeeeeRrrrrrrYyyyy Intrestterrestiiiiiiing ;D I tend to put the "Racers Edge" in everything I run couse its " REALLY , slick ! " Anybody know what the "Mystery" is in the "Mystery Oil" ? :-? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/12 at 20:18:14 "STP, the racer's edge" jingle dates all the way back to 1968 and it was emblazoned on lots of NASCAR racers since then. It is a great big mass of polymerization that greatly thickened your oil way past any normal oil rating. It used to have a lot of ZDDP in it, but no longer does. Great advertising jingle for a product that is no longer wanted or needed in modern cars (voids your Nissan or Honda warranty if used during warranty period). Old Chevy's certainly needed some help with hydraulic lifters that wouldn't stay pumped up and STP and Lucas Oil Treatment provided it, along with something to help out those thumping worn out main and rod bearings. Hey, put a bunch of standard STP or Lucas into your Savage's sump just to see if your clutch can really slip some for you .... Marvel Mystery Oil and Seafoam and Lucas Fuel System Additive are certainly mysterious, but they sometimes will unplug one of our Savage carburetors from a soft fouling blockage in a jet passage. But lots of times they don't, too. But at least you tried it before you had to take the carb apart. ======================== No modern oil needs "additives" and hasn't for the last decade at least. People who routinely add various stuff to their sumps now days are supporting old 1970's companies who have outlived their "oil ain't so good right now" period and are simply searching for something to sell. Unless you have a specific need (say 18,000 PPM of ZDDP during a high lift cam break in period) you should simply buy the oil product that fits your intended use. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by MMRanch on 02/26/12 at 20:31:00 So Wouldn't it be a good thing to add some "ZDDP's " to the oil regularlly ? You know , Something that keeps the "dry-start" thing from ever happing ? :-? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/12 at 20:44:01 Your Savage cam and tappets cannot "dry start" by design -- the cam lobes dip into the head oil bathtub once every revolution and coat the cam lobe rubbing surface with a fresh coating of oil. You can dry start a plain journal bearing in the head though, if you haven't run the bike in months and months. But this rarely happens. ZDDP does its thing when we are roaring our Savages through the mountains -- temp is up high and contact line pressures on the high RPM tappets and cam lobes go past any oil film's rational ability to hang in there. ZDDP was invented to recover from the low cost flat tappet engine's design flaws, really. Modern engines have bearing rollers to remove this high point load, or else really big smooth flat caps on the valves that get directly actuated by a large wide cam profile (sports bikes use this generally) that once again remove the high point loading. NO ENGINE built today uses the old flat tappets ('cept ours of course). http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/red-81403_w.jpg Having found a good full synthetic base oil ZDDP break-in additive, the temptation is to keep on using it. After all, a 4 year supply is only $12 ..... If we had decent silica control with our air and oil filter system we could use the stuff to run a sump of oil endlessly, just adding oil as needed and putting our shot glass of Red Line in each spring to completely refresh our critical oil packages. But we don't have good silica control in our Savage at all, our silicates build up in the oil because our air filters don't stop all the dust and our oil filters pass all the tiny fine silicates dust right on through (eventually the oil filter plugs up with the little fine metal bits from the tranny and cam chain). So, even with a good full synthetic I still have to change out the oil out every year and swap out my oil filter (super magnet boosted for finer ferrous filtration, btw) every 2 years. I do it simply to get all of the built up silica dust out of the engine. I don't recommend this drain interval to you guys at all -- my bike has a heavily modified air filter system and a very heavily modified oil filtration system that supports this sort of drain interval. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D .... that Red Line bottle looks temping, don't it? Real head crack candy to the "additive addicts" amongst us, ain't it? http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/red-81403_w.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by MMRanch on 02/26/12 at 21:00:46 So is the "More the Merrier" on the ZDDP count ? I suppect my Savage hasn't seen the high side of 4000 RPMs in years And now with the larger front sprocket it may never get over 5000 . Thump , Thump , Thump , Thump . OK so where do we get this "RED LINE" stuff |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/26/12 at 21:21:50 18,000 PPM is the break-in amount Web Cam was hunting for. Highest levels historically found were in out and out real racing oils which currently top out at a whopping 22,000 PPM. Beyond 22,000 PPM it simply doesn't do anything much for the additional amount put in and it can cause a weird form of oil acidification/corrosion up above 22,000 PPM, so yes there is a top limit but I would not know where the top limit would actually be for a Savage engine. I have always shot for the 18,000 to 22,000 PPM range when I bumped with the Red Line stuff. normal modern car oils at 5,000 to 7,000 PPM is way too low for a Savage 10,000 PPM is bare bones minimum for a stock Savage 12,000 to 18,000 PPM is better for a Savage (Rotella products have 12,000 PPM) 22,000 PPM is the max you can buy (Amisol and Royal Purple does a racing oil at this level) To all additive addicts -- you can buy it here or at your local fast car shop. It will not affect your clutch at all. (which may not be true for what you are pouring in there now) http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RED-81403/?rtype=10 http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/red-81403_w.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/27/12 at 01:50:12 Klotz makes a break in oil for motorcycles no need to whip up your own recipe. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 02/27/12 at 05:06:02 I think since I've started using Rotella T6 my decel pops have turned into mini backfires... still no clutch slippage though... I'm just gonna drain it and throw Rotella Triple back in, that stuff seemed to be the smoothest so far... as far as temps and specs it couldn't be worse than the Suzuki brand oil, my clutch was slipping like a pregnant dog with that stuff... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/27/12 at 09:55:03 22292C2C7677400 wrote:
It does? For bikes? Linky linky please. Red Line makes a break in oil too, $16 a quart. Or you can buy the quart of break in booster shown above for the same price and boost like 4 full oil changes of Rotella T6 up towards the maximum ZDDP numbers for the price of just one quart of break in oil. Bang for the buck counts, as always. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/27/12 at 10:14:33 7A6D71746C2A74796B6C2E2E180 wrote:
Only time I have had this pow pow pow decel happen to me the joint at the muffler to header and the one at the header pipe to head had vibrated loose some and were leaking a lot of fresh air into the pipe on the reverse pulse which then ignited the hot rich exhaust gasses. Noticed the symptom when I was headed on back from a Dragon run, both me and the bike were beat up a little bit from that one. If using T6 caused any changes to exhaust notes, somebody else would have noticed it before now I would think. Only thing reported multiple times so far is "smoother shifting" and "less slippage" but that was from people who already had shifting or slipping problems, normal folks really don't see a lot of difference when changing oil brands. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 02/27/12 at 10:46:47 I'm noting it as the oil at the moment because I do keep everything torqued and that's the only change I've made.. but yea no slippage here either.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/27/12 at 13:38:34 04272F2D2E27272E394B0 wrote:
It does? For bikes? Linky linky please. Red Line makes a break in oil too, $16 a quart. Or you can buy the quart of break in booster shown above for the same price and boost like 4 full oil changes of Rotella T6 up towards the maximum ZDDP numbers for the price of just one quart of break in oil. Bang for the buck counts, as always.[/quote] OF keeps the $ stores going. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/27/12 at 16:15:28 4F4441411B1A2D0 wrote:
It does? For bikes? Linky linky please. Red Line makes a break in oil too, $16 a quart. Or you can buy the quart of break in booster shown above for the same price and boost like 4 full oil changes of Rotella T6 up towards the maximum ZDDP numbers for the price of just one quart of break in oil. Bang for the buck counts, as always.[/quote] OF keeps the $ stores going.[/quote] Bill, you done been asked very politely for a link to your Klotz break-in oil for motorcycles. You can't distract us with a little nonsense and banter, a linky linky to the Klotz motorcycle break in oil is requested, please. Jest to show you how its done, here is the link to the RedLine oil that would be used to break in a hot cam if you were buying enough quarts do do the whole sump full at $13 a quart (plus shipping makes $16 a quart). http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=15&pcid=1 Me, I'm cheap -- Rotella T6 bumped up with the RedLine concentrate shown upthread will do the same job for less than $8 a quart (the T6 plus the bump concentrate) with shipping costs included. This way I also get to keep the year long long term use of the sump-load instead of having to dump it out early. NOTE THEY SAY TO CHANGE THIS RED LINE RACING OIL MORE FREQUENTLY THAN NORMAL OIL CHANGES -- remember, pure racing oils have no detergents or surfactants in them as they are supposed to be dumped at the end of the race and they are not intended for long term protection at all as they are supposed to get dumped after several hours of use. .... Hey, whut wuz we gonna change Bill's list moniker to again if he got caught non-factualizing his Klotz again? Wuz it Bullshooter Bill or Bungalow Bill? I ferget. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/12 at 18:28:21 billshutter was his nameO! |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by feelinjunky on 02/27/12 at 18:42:45 Holy nuts, this isn't the 1960s. Oils are G status nowadays so use whatever you want. The only way you can say one oil is better than another is if using a certain oil causes engine damage faster than another oil, which hasn't ever happened and won't happen. Relax. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/27/12 at 20:25:40 3F3C3C353037332C373220590 wrote:
Now we gots us a live one who has done picked up his rife and has done gone to shooting. "if using a certain oil causes engine damage faster than another oil, which hasn't ever happened and won't happen." I think 5w30 & 10w30 energy star car oils cause engine damage faster than you can say "slippy clutch" which has happened and will happen. Or did you mean "a certain oil" and "another oil" that are selected with both within some certain range of parameters? Clarify what you meant a bit, while good ol' Bill searches for his Klotz motorcycle break in oil. I'll be helpful, and give you the written data to pick between using your very own favorite Castrol GTX as the example. http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/images/products/GTX_label180x145.jpg SAE 5W-30: is a premium, super multi-grade that provides maximum cold weather engine protection and can help extend engine life. SAE 5W-30 exceeds API Service SM, SL, SJ and SH, as well as exceeding all the requirements of ILSAC GF-4/GF-3/GF-2 for PI Certified Gasoline Engine Oils and meets Energy Conserving Standards. SAE 10W-30: is a premium, super multi-grade that provides excellent fuel economy and can help extend engine life. SAE 10W-30 exceeds API Service SM, SL, SJ and SH as well as exceeding the requirements of ILSAC GF-4/GF-3/GF-2 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils and meets Energy Conserving Standards. Exceeds GM6094M. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by feelinjunky on 02/27/12 at 23:42:18 4261696B686161687F0D0 wrote:
One would think people would have the common sense to assume that "oil" on a motorcycle forum would mean oil for motorcycles and not cars...I don't believe I need to clarify my wording. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 00:14:48 And it would amaze you that people do use car oils in their Savages and then post here about their clutch slippage issues? Too frequently, too. Ok, so you don't want to specify what you really meant. But it sounds like "motorcycle oils" are the subset you want to limit your point to cover. How does somebody who doesn't know "motorcycle oils" from German potato salad find them at the Advanced Auto Store? Heck, I don't see any Klotz, or Royal Purple or Amisol in there either. All I see is Harley Davidson oil, is that "motorcycle oil"? How about this MX oil I see over here, it has a wheeling dirt bike on the label -- is it "motorcycle oil"? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/28/12 at 05:11:50 3A293E3F202D2B29227D4C0 wrote:
Klotz mx4 is 1400 zddp. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by MMRanch on 02/28/12 at 06:58:32 Builtolast66 wrote I'm just gonna drain it and throw Rotella Triple back in, that stuff seemed to be the smoothest so far... as far as temps and specs it couldn't be worse than the Suzuki brand oil, my clutch was slipping like a pregnant dog with that stuff... Sounds like good advice , with a 1/4 bottle of RedLine thrown in for good mesure. I'll try AutoZone , see if they carry RedLine brand. Thinking about it .... Isn't any break-in-additive gona have the same count of them "Z" things ? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 08:25:29 Oil wars, don't you just love it! Listen real close, you can use whatever oil you want, that is why there is a drain plug and a filler cap. I just know that I have used Castrol for the last thirty plus years in Suzukis, I have never experienced a slipping clutch, or any engine damage that was oil related.. In fact saw virtually no wear on cam lobes, tappet faces, or valve shims using this oil... Please though use what YOU want, I its one of those "I don't care" moments... ;D If anything will help your engine breakin after major rebuild, it is riding it, varying speeds, rolling on and off the throttle, getting them good and hot, and changing oil and filter shortly after.. These bikes are very old engine designs, do not use synthetics for breakins, wait for a couple thousand miles before switching, if thats the oil you want to use... 8-) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/28/12 at 08:37:49 77607C796127797466612323150 wrote:
Watch out for suzuki oil,clutch slips.trans want shift,exhaust pops.makes the seat hard,brake noises,tires wear out fast. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Savage_Rob on 02/28/12 at 11:11:06 I have been using either Mobil1 V-Twin 20w50 or Amsoil 20w50 (both full synthetic) for years and have had no clutch problems at all. Seems like one of them used to be 15w50 and is now 20w50 but I don't recall for sure. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 12:15:10 6B6065653F3E090 wrote:
Klotz mx4 is 1400 zddp.[/quote] Bill, good try but no banana, where is that Klotz break in oil for motorcycles that you promised us with the required 1,800 ppm?? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 12:31:34 Retread, the discussion with Bill is currently circling around high PPMs of ZDDP because that is what Web Cam requires for a break in oil so their weld up style high lift & duration cam profile doesn't shred itself. Gotta separate that point from the normal engine requirements, or you may get confused. We do that a lot around here, get confused .... Savage engines do use flat tappet technology that requires an intention pick on your oil to have enough ZDDP to do the job, especially if you plan to run any additional rpms using a hot cam. Why pick high ZDDP instead of the moderate levels of ZDDP and moly or other friction fighters as are used in most car oils? Wet clutch plates can slip in moly rich oils, this has happened here on the list so we know it is an issue .... But yes, this is America and you can put in any sort of oil you like into your Savage. But is it the best pick? Without thinking about it some, how do you know? For example, you mention Castrol without saying which one (brand family), or even which weight. Castrol does have oils in the brand family groups that ARE NOT SUITABLE for Savage engines .... (see upthread) So how do you narrow it down to the appropriate Castrol oil and weight? .... pick a specific Castrol that you really like and are willing to rest your rifle on for some steady like shoot'n. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/28/12 at 13:35:15 303B3E3E6465520 wrote:
Klotz mx4 is 1400 zddp.[/quote] Is there a link to that data or did you use a weegee board? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Savage_Rob on 02/28/12 at 14:09:16 71525A585B52525B4C3E0 wrote:
Good to know when I get to that point. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 14:26:45 Zddp.. I am to running a webcam (their light grind), saw NO requirement from them to run a high ZDDP PPM oil. The failure in high performance cams with present day dino oils is a situation that can be related to several things, over revving, lugging, improper post installation care, and of course just plain old parts failure.. I sometimes run a light weight non-detergent oil in break in for full rebuilds, this is a very short term break in, up to temp, shutdown, drain, filter, and new run oil in... This prevents cylinder glazing that can sometimes take place with synthetics and high ZDDP's.. I am presently using Castrol GTX 10-40, and plan on draining at 200 miles, inspecting cam lobes, adjusting valves, and changing oil and filter.. I may put in some 0-40 Amsoil, and I may not, all depending on what I find... I gave up years ago worrying about what my oil was doing while riding, I have built and ridden some pretty high performance machines, and oil ingredients, or lack of(even the cheap stuff) have never let me down.. Now riders have! Enjoy.. 8-) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 15:36:04 http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREswNSYG6oifpbwJ5PmbyBSGj-BVRVnOh74GQicWeOa3dp3wC39w SAE 10W-40: is a premium, super multigrade that provides maximum protection in all seasons and can help extend engine life. SAE 10W-40 exceeds API service SM, SL, SJ and SH as well as exceeding the engine protection requirements for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils. ...... and on this side of no-man's land we have the latest contender in the endless oil war, dino based Castrol GTX in the dino 10w40 weight class. Castrol has a long long American history of good car oils and the GTX is their bread and butter grade of automotive dino oil. ;D ;D ;D ;D Retread, have we correctly identified your contender? Have you got him all entrenched and dug in properly, with all your machine gun ammo and mortar supplies properly laid in? Speak now, so we can get the all right stuff installed for the coming discussions. Watta ya say guys? White jug Rotella dino as our contender? Spec on spec, service life, additive packages with purchase price as the final clincher? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 02/28/12 at 16:05:58 When you type in little tiny red fonts I usually almost miss it.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 16:23:36 No you don't miss it because it is a little 9 font and red colored, your eyes naturally gravitate to it as it contains the punch line, generally speaking. ;D ;D Built2last, you said you liked Castrol GTX too, you all happy with this one "as shown" -- about ready to rest your rifle on it and to start the shoot'n? Retread will surely appreciate the company in the home front trench with him, somebody to cover your back is always a good thing to have. Bill will be off to the side somewhere, sniping right along with his one liners to lend you boys a hand (he flat hates a diesel anything, he does). Are you ready to start shooting? As new combatants, you guys get the first shot. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by arteacher on 02/28/12 at 16:36:43 White jug Rottella it is! Ladeeees and gentlemen, Welcome to the fight of the ceeentury! In this conaaaa, wieghing in at 10 w 40, is the middle weight woooorld champion... CASTROL GTX. In the othaaa conaaaa... wighing in at 10 w 40 is the contendaaaa WHITE JUG ROTELLA. (whistles, cheers, shouts etc etc) This bout, in ten rounds, will decide the Suzuki Savage S40 all time best dino oil championship. Gentlemen, I want a clean fight, no hitting below the belt, and no reference to Klotz. Now go back to your corners and come out fighting. DING DING DING DING |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 16:55:50 I can tell you that Rotella would not be my choice in a diesel oil... Good old Amsoil 15-40 would be... Again, I really don't care what oil I use in a break in cycle, after I inspect at 200 miles I'll tell you how the cam lobes look.. You guys are just stirring a non-existent pot... >:( |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by arteacher on 02/28/12 at 16:58:34 7D4A5B5D4A4E4B2F0 wrote:
This pot is stirred frequently here. Its all in fun. ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/28/12 at 17:02:31 2922222B2728293332460 wrote:
The Ali of oils in the black jug KLOTZ is the winner. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 17:02:35 Ok then, I'm going to change to Amsoil after 200 miles... There, now you will all have to go to the Royal Purple/Redline/Amsoil wars.... ;D This is your first shot in an oil war? Are you French by any chance? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by arteacher on 02/28/12 at 17:05:08 595257570D0C3B0 wrote:
The Ali of oils in the black jug KLOTZ is the winner.[/quote] FOUL!! FOUL!! AGAINST THE RULES!! |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 18:37:22 Here here now, Bill cheat? Surely you jest -- according to Billshooter we (everybody else) are the cheaters and the liars. Castrol took a little heat from when GTX stopped being good for flat tappet engines back when SM grades took effect (we are now working on the SN grade changeover, BTW) but they documented a solution for flat tappet engines as follows: Dear James, Thank you for contacting Castrol North America. Castrol always recommends following the guidelines of the original engine manufacturer for the recommended grade and API specific to your application. This information can be found in the vehicles owner’s manual or by contacting the manufacturer directly. Unfortunately we do not have a recommendation for a 1980 Ferrari 308gtsi as requested below. We would recommend contacting your OEM (Original Engine Manufacturer)for further assistance in obtaining the correct oil for your vehicle. With regard to ZDDP issues, the API SM/ILSAC GF-4 engine oil category calls for reduced Zinc and Phosphorus levels to allow extended catalyst life in current model vehicles. There appear to be field issues associated with the SM/GF-4 oil's level of anti-wear in the classic car engines known as flat tappet cam engines. The current late model passenger car engines are not flat tappet cam engines and have no reported field issues related to the level of anti-wear chemistry in the SM/GF-4 oils. Castrol SYNTEC 20W-50 classic car formulation is being replaced by Castrol Edge with SYNTEC Power Technology in the 5W-50 viscosity grade. The 5W-50 grade will also be specially formulated for classic car use and will adopt the 20W-50 claims – designed for use in classic cars. The 5W-50 formulation will contain more zinc additives than the 20W-50 and will also enhance start up ability in cold temperatures as well as enable better fuel economy* *Compared to SAE 20W-50. Again, we do recommend contacting Ferrari for a specific product recommendation for your vehicle. Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we value your patronage! Castrol Consumer Relations 1-800-462-0835 Now if you punch Castrol Classic Car Formulation into your web browser you will see that Castrol freely admits their GTX oil isn't for flat tappet engines any more and you should use this stuff instead. http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644 http://www.castrol.com/assets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/images/products/379x760_EDGE_5W50.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 19:10:31 No way will I use another synthetic (being a Amsoil dealer), so you won... Now, speaking from experience, I dare you to poke fun at a French Legionaire to his face... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/28/12 at 19:10:57 I thought this was supposed to be a clean fight? dino vs olive oil. ok, ok... we gotta let bill play too. marques of queensburry rules. state your miles with your preferred oil w/o major repair. upgrades, cam chain and oil leaks don't count. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 19:52:44 Many of the Foreign Legion folks weren't French and the Foreign Legion was forbidden to fight in "domestic" French wars. Anywhoo .... I hadn't even shot at you yet. Castrol Classic Car oil has slippery stuff in it that will kill clutches (carries no JASO rating whatsoever) so it isn't really a solution at all. Castrol Europe has come out with a Castrol Bike Only Oil that looks like this that you can buy mail order at the Motorcycle Superstore. http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/0000-Castrol-ACT-EVO-X-TRA-4T-Engine-Oil---.jpg However, they won't state the ZDDP levels, etc etc --- they just say it is good for wet clutches. No claims for flat tappet use at all. Zip. Nada. ;D ;D ;D ;D Do you begin to get the Catch 22 that the Savage is in ??? We have antique flat tappets AND a wet clutch --- very very few motors like that any more. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/28/12 at 20:16:10 So, whut do ya do to get some proper oil in your Savage? Pick a JASO MA/MA2 rated wet clutch approved motorcycle oil that has 1200 ppm of ZDDP in it. Heck, you can find the stuff all over the place at bike shops and such for $9 to $13 a quart -- all day long you can shell out them sheckles and buy the pricey correct bike rated stuff. Or you can go diesel ..... (Bill jest loves this part) Diesel oils like white jug Rotella dino 15w40 have 1200 PPM of ZDDP along with a terrific detergent and surfactant package that can go 100,000 miles between oil changes in a 20:1 compression supercharged diesel engine. And to finalize Bill's insult and injury --- Rotella has the full approval of the Japanese Standards Organization and has been awarded both JASO MA and MA2 ratings !!! Rotella is good for ANY motorcycle engine any generation with or without a catalytic converter ..... Now, a little salt sprinkled on Bill's aching boo boos White jug Rotella Dino costs a lot less per quart than the Castrol GTX that we started out warring with. To make it REALLY REALLY sting really really bad, Blue jug Rotella T6 full synthetic costs less per quart than the Castrol GTX that we started out warring against. And Blue Jug Rotella T6 beat Bill's $13 a quart Klotz in a data driven comparison in a Savage engine right here on the list ..... (more than once, too) ;) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 21:40:35 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
I think not... If your gonna use a Rotella dino oil (white jug T1?) 100K without a change in a heavy duty diesel engine, your gonna have a piece of junk after that 100K.... You may like that Rotty oil, but it aint that good... 8-) The Leigion fought in Nam, many of them settled there after the French had enough sense to get out.. Like I say, you just wouldn't say that to their face... :o |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/28/12 at 21:44:32 With regard to ZDDP issues, the API SM/ILSAC GF-4 engine oil category calls for reduced Zinc and Phosphorus levels to allow extended catalyst life in current model vehicles. & everybody knows catalysts are much more important than engines. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 02/29/12 at 02:46:13 67444C4E4D44444D5A280 wrote:
Nah, I'm sticking with Rot T6 for the time being.. synthetics = more HP |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 04:47:41 Quote:
Single sump contests ... Truckers I agree it's pushing a dino based oil way more than I'd care to do (I'd use Rot Syn) but you have to understand a few truckerish things that make it possible. First, big 18 wheelers get a lot of miles put on them in a month. 100,000 miles isn't a lot of months for an open road truck driven continuously by a two man team. rough truck math 100,000 miles / 65 mph = 1,539 road hours = 65 double teamed road days Second, oil and air filtration on a big rig involves both primary and secondary filtration systems that remove junk down to the sub-micron level. Big rigs also commonly use secondary bypass oil filtration systems that continuously microfine filter the entire sump over a period of hours. And to a trucker, the oil itself is considered good until shear numbers or silica build up numbers or antifreeze contaminants say you have to change it out. Third, most big truck stops can do a short form oil analysis on your sump load of oil while you are showering and eating. Truckers don't fly blind on the oil in their bread and butter machine. At 15 gallons per oil change, they change it when it needs it (by analysis). Truckers also don't risk a $10,000 engine (rebuilt cost) unnecessarily. Lastly, when truckers do oil mileage pissing contests, the numbers are much much higher and they tend to play those games with the premium synthetics. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 05:08:16 Where does the rotella claim the flat tappet use. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 05:35:12 Bill, you gotta try harder than that .... Rotella doesn't have to make claims for their oil (everybody else does it for them) http://www.google.com/cse?cx=002683415331144861350%3Atsq8didf9x0&q=rotella+flat+tappet+use&ie=utf-8&sa=Search#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=rotella%20flat%20tappet%20use&gsc.page=1 |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 05:56:57 Flat tappets will alway be flat tappets with 0 wear Klotz oil,With rotella oil they will become concaved tappets. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 06:48:45 ;D http://www.google.com/cse?cx=002683415331144861350%3Atsq8didf9x0&q=rotella+flat+tappet+use&ie=utf-8&sa=Search#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Klotz%20flat%20tappet%20use Bill, this is the exact same search that got the 1,580 hits with Rotella, except I substituted Klotz for Rotella --- yielding only 35 hits total with 2 hits that actually talk about Klotz and tappets, with one of those being from Klotz own web pages. Not many folks are buying your red koolaid and talking about it and flat tappets on the web, apparently. ..... and when you actually read the stuff inside the 35 hits, Klotz gets mentioned and Rotella gets recommended. Sad, ain't it? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 07:04:54 OF why doesn't Suzuki recommend Diesel oil instead of motorcycle oil,Don't they know the slightest thing about motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 07:29:50 Dear Bill, I know it hurts your feelings, but the Japanese Standards Organization (of which Suzuki Motor Co., Ltd is a proud member) clearly recommends Rotella diesel oils for use in their motorcycle engines. It sez so right on the JASO MA MA2 rating label. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/29/12 at 08:12:29 183B3331323B3B3225570 wrote:
I think I understand a few "truckerish" things being raised in heavy hauling most of my life... I don't know of one owner operator who would run a dino oil 100K+, now a quality synthetic, maybe, but only with regular filter changes, and oil analysis. 10K is a very conservative cost for todays engines, 20K is about right... A good driver can keep his oil clean for longer periods by keeping a gentle foot (holding down soot levels), but even with a bypass oil filtration system, your going to build up acids much quicker in dino based oil... Ten K was the limit to a dino oil in my day.. Also you have to figure every filter change is costing 2-5 gallons of oil.. Rottela would be the last choice in any of my trucks... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 09:41:22 61424A484B42424B5C2E0 wrote:
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 09:42:54 6B5C4D4B5C585D390 wrote:
I think I understand a few "truckerish" things being raised in heavy hauling most of my life... I don't know of one owner operator who would run a dino oil 100K+, now a quality synthetic, maybe, but only with regular filter changes, and oil analysis. 10K is a very conservative cost for todays engines, 20K is about right... A good driver can keep his oil clean for longer periods by keeping a gentle foot (holding down soot levels), but even with a bypass oil filtration system, your going to build up acids much quicker in dino based oil... Ten K was the limit to a dino oil in my day.. Also you have to figure every filter change is costing 2-5 gallons of oil.. Rottela would be the last choice in any of my trucks...[/quote] +ONE |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 12:07:53 Retread, Bill likes you. You got your mortar working correctly and got one off and he has done run out of mortar rounds long long ago. Bill makes no real points any more and cannot seem to find any real information, so his +1 means a lot when it shows up under your post -- he's rooting fer ya. Keep it up !!! Bill, Suzuki recommends Suzuki oil (duh!) Retread, 10,000 miles / 65mph / 24 hrs = 6.4 open road days. I doubt many people ever played the oil change game out to 100,000 miles with a dino oil very often (it was a braggin' rights stunt and was likely very carefully done) but I also doubt that truckers go around changing out their oil every week, even back in the day when you were driving. And I did say (rebuilt) as in cost to do a good cylinder, pistons, mains, rods and upper end job, not like buying a new motor which most truckers don't do since they generally keep a fresh rebuilt motor around. Keep on shooting guys, eventually you will get around to your Castrol GTX oil to say something good it does in a Savage engine. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 02/29/12 at 12:51:12 The S40 engine is so in love with rotella oil their going to get married,and guess who the best man is, Oldfeller himself. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 02/29/12 at 14:51:16 Wow. I almost.feel bad for asking. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 15:03:23 Do I get to rub T6 all over myself during the wedding, or is that just a Klotz thing that you Klotz guys do? That Royal Purple stuff, if I wuz a fan of that stuff would I become "slippery royalty"? Amisol, what does that do to a girl's skin? ;D ;D ;D ;D [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikjIxqpjFbM[/media] |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 15:12:13 Dozerman, since you provided the excuse for this latest episode of "the endless oil war" I gots me a question or two for you. Do you understand the Catch 22 that the Savage is in, with the antique flat tappet valve train (1200 PPM ZDDP) and the wet clutch slip requirements (JASO MA or MA2 bike oils -- no car oils)? Next, since you know that the synthetic oils seem to be kinda prevalent for the flat tappet 1200 ZDDP part of the issue and that the JASO marking are right in the same place as the weight and SAE ratings are you equipped to pick you out an oil? What oil are you going to choose? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 16:10:42 Back to the extended oil drain interval thingie again, some new information .... Shell Oil achieves INDEFINITE oil drain interval: Shell Oil has utilized GCF By-Pass filters and the GCF P/M Program on their engines within the Gulf of Mexico for over eight years. After two years of rigorous testing and extending oil drains further and further, Shell Oil now only performs an oil drain when laboratory analysis deems it necessary. Some of their equipment have not had a “routine” oil drain in over eight years. Shell personnel now service By-Pass filters and sample their equipment with the portable oil analysis units on a routine basis. Complete laboratory analysis is performed on a quarterly basis. Extending lube oil drains by the use of UF By-Pass filters and this P/M Program has streamlined their lube oil maintenance operations, drastically reduced their downtime, and shown dramatic savings on new oil purchases and disposal cost of waste oil. http://gulfcoastfilters.com/understanding_lube_oil_and_its_j.htm Source of this tidbit comes from the following Gulfcoast Filters source, a bypass filter mgf who is pushing the boundaries on oil life through better filtration, removing all the soot which Retread mentioned as the source for his oil requiring 10,000 mile replacement. Interesting that oil analysis equipment is now hand-held, wonder how much it costs to purchase these days. BTW, THE USA ARMY believes in infinite oil life now, and tests rather than replaces by rote. Things can sure change on you when your back is turned, count on it. NAME: Jeff LEAD FROM: DATE: UNIT ID: JEFRN#1 COMPANY: NOTES: CAT C15 in Western Star 10-7-03- Miles 319366 (copy not mailed) everything normal. 11-18-03 Miles 330,850, mailed copy. 1-30-04- Received report, mailed copy, normal. 2-25-04- Rec’d report, normal, Miles 361,000 3-12-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 370,481, mailed copy. 4-20-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 380,490, mailed copy. 5-14-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 390,056, mailed copy. 6-22-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 400,302, mailed copy. 8-1-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 412, 000, mailed copy. 8-18-04- Rec’d report, normal, soot at 0.3, miles 420,231, mailed copy. 9-21-04- Rec’d report, suspect coolant leak, high copper high sodium, Jeff is suppose to take truck to Cat dealer to try and find problem, Changed OIL – 1st in 430,000 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11-17-04- Rec’d sample, 1st since engine was repaired for coolant leak. Sample is normal, soot at 0.0. Mailed copy. 12-13-04- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy. 1-15-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.0, mailed copy. 2-15-05-Rec’d sample, normal , soot at 0.2, silicon at 22 3-17-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy. 4-22-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy. 5-19-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy. This above is "relatively normal results", for best in class on a dino oil see below. http://gulfcoastfilters.com/1,000,000%20MILES.htm |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by feelinjunky on 02/29/12 at 16:19:03 I'm loading up my sniper and oldfeller's right in my scope. 5C7F7775767F7F7661130 wrote:
That's not what I meant at all. I said "oil for motorcycles." Read it for what it is. "Motorcycle oil" is more specific and NOT what I meant. The user of the oil is the one that ultimately decides if a said oil is for motorcycle engines, hopefully based on manufacturer's recommendations. Although I shouldn't need to say this, but this is based on the assumption that motorcycles should be using oil for motorcycles to run properly. 74575F5D5E57575E493B0 wrote:
This is the best thing I have heard all year. 1231393B383131382F5D0 wrote:
No, it is NOT automotive oil. It is MOTOR oil. It can be used with, but not limited to, automobiles, motorcycles, lawn mowers, chain saws, leaf blowers, tractor trailer trucks and your personal motor home, AT owner's discretion. Perhaps you should consider changing your wording (;)) to be less specific and more accurate. 496A6260636A6A6374060 wrote:
My point exactly. This isn't the 1960s. Now for something more relevant. I have used Castrol GTX 10W-40 for 9000 original miles and I have had no engine problems. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 16:32:24 Feelinjunky feels that he is free to use whatever sort of car oil (if it uses only the car oil SAE symbols on the jug then it is car oil by definition) he wants to, including a car oil that the oil manufacturer (Castrol) specifically does not recommend for the flat tappet style cam actuators having stated in a letter that they removed the required ZDDP at the SM changeover due to government regulations. That's nice. Did the government regulate that your tappets wouldn't wear out or you clutch might slip from the moly that they substituted in for the ZDDP that they removed? ;D ;D ;D I heard the shots but I haven't felt any hits yet -- do keep on shooting though as that is all part of the fun. wwwweeeet !! wwwweeeet !! wwwweeeet !! ::) Next, is he gonna say his cam chain isn't wearing prematurely when he gets to 18,000 miles and has to put in his slavy fix? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/29/12 at 16:39:27 5370787A797070796E1C0 wrote:
I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational... :'( Yes every week is the norm for most OTR team operation oil changes, IF they are using dino oil (Most are not anymore). But filter changes? In the Owner Operator trucks I know of they are taking analysis on their synthetics every 10K, most are not team operations, most are changing filters at 15-20K, this adds 2-5 gallons of fresh oil, then they run the oil to 100K+... I know you couldn't log an avg of over 50mph in my day or the DOT/ICC/ and other officials would rack your butt... I'm sure there have been changes, but most drivers I still comunicate with say they are for the worse.. Like my Dad used to say after driving for 35 years, "If there was any money in it, I'd still be driving." .... ;) I'll let you know (And post some pics) of my cam and tappets upon inspection.. I can tell you this, IF I was running a race engine, I would be using a high quality synthetic. If you want I can order you some Amsoil? 8-) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 02/29/12 at 16:42:10 0F38292F383C395D0 wrote:
I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational... :'( Yes every week is the norm for most OTR team operation oil changes, IF they are using dino oil (Most are not anymore). But filter changes? In the Owner Operator trucks I know of they are taking analysis on their synthetics every 10K, most are not team operations, most are changing filters at 15-20K, this adds 2-5 gallons of fresh oil, then they run the oil to 100K+... I know you couldn't log an avg of over 50mph in my day or the DOT/ICC/ and other officials would rack your butt... I'm sure there have been changes, but most drivers I still comunicate with say they are for the worse.. Like my Dad used to say after driving for 35 years, "If there was any money in it, I'd still be driving." .... ;) Oh almost forgot, a inframe rebuild on a 3406 Cat is running right at 20K right now... I'll let you know (And post some pics) of my cam and tappets upon inspection.. I can tell you this, IF I was running a race engine, I would be using a high quality synthetic. If you want I can order you some Amsoil? 8-) [/quote] |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by feelinjunky on 02/29/12 at 17:16:42 082B2321222B2B2235470 wrote:
It says Motor Oil in caps on the bottle. That doesn't restrict it to car use. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 17:55:21 When you go out into the churned earth of an oil war, it helps to take the other guy's bible with you so you can do some light reading on what he believes. Here is Feelinjunky's source material that he keeps referencing ..... it shows he is going for source information at the very root of the oil industry. http://www.moneybluebook.com/the-3000-mile-oil-change-myth-save-your-money/ They are talking cars here, and when we are talking 100,000 mile oil changes we were talking big diesel rigs, but this here oil war thread is REALLY about a 650cc single cylinder motorcycle engine that has a wet clutch and tappets ...... :D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by 12Bravo on 02/29/12 at 18:25:41 16353D3F3C35353C2B590 wrote:
The US Army has been doing oil analysis (Army Oil Analysis Program AOAP) since at least the late 80's ,when I enlisted. I was in for 7 years and don't remember doing many oil changes the whole time. We changed oil on generators more often than any other equipment. As long as what ever oil each person decides to use: as long as it meets or exceeds JASO MA, MA2 standards then you are good to go. I'll keep using Rotella synthetic. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 02/29/12 at 19:40:15 Probably gonna use Amsoil 10w40 oil for motorcycles. I don't mind paying 15 bucks a quart. My. Wife rides everyday to work and every weekend . The bike only takes two quarts. I run 20w50 v-twin amsoil in my bike and it runs cooler and when I recently did a valve job everything was clean and like brand new, with very little wear (11500 miles) Like I said I was only concerned about clutch slippage. I'm sure that both of the oils mentioned are adequate but I prefer the brand amsoil . Just my two cents Rich |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 02/29/12 at 19:44:43 I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational... Retread, Suzuki references an old spec on purpose -- SE-SF were the heydays of big ZDDP numbers when it was up at or over 12,000 PPM and all was good in flat tappet land. By telling you to get that grade, what is Suzuki trying to tell you? Could it be a top secret code which simply says "Get a high detergent 10W40 oil with a lot of ZDDP in it and completely avoid the nasty moly that comes into play after SF."? When SM came in, ZDDP dropped way down to <8,000 ppm and moly appeared in car oils for the first time as a widespread "normal additive" to try to make up the difference. Your Castrol people admit to this in the letter (it wasn't a secret at the time either). Bikes had lots of problems with SM oils -- bad ones. JASO standards (wet clutch based testing) came into being to sort out the disaster in motorcycle oil land. Your assumption that "newer than SF is automatically better" is severely flawed logic when it comes to flat tappet engines with wet clutches. Your implied logic that that the new SN is going to get even better yet is LUDICROUS ... we are looking forward to new levels of bureaucratic nonsense to show forth with that new standard which is intended to support the new CAFE regulations. Hey, you guys go pour some Castrol GTX SN grade into your Savage and tell us all about how great it is .... Go ahead, we know you and Feelinjunky are jest gonna have to go do it. Hells Bells, Bill has better sense than that !!! "It ain't a motorcycle oil" sez Bill ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D And the winner of this here oil war is $15 a quart JASO MA MA2 rated Amisol 10w40 ..... everybody fires their klashnikovs up into the air in celebration, the war is over fer now. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 03/01/12 at 03:43:16 Hey Bill67.. Sea Foam > Klotz.. yeah I said it.. what you gonna do? I just bought a gallon for $45.. I'm selling shots of it for $5 + you get a free can of Pabst Blue Ribbon... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/01/12 at 04:48:07 Good boy Built 66 |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/01/12 at 07:26:02 You can lead to some common sense, but you can't get em to drink it.... You can get on this box and find a failure linked to every brand and weight of oil out there, every oil soaked blogger in cyberland has one or two.. According to my sources, just stay away from fuel saving 0- dinos and you'll be OK.. Like I stated before I am using the GTX for a breakin oil, and might change it to Amsoil before I sell this machine in a couple months.. I do NOT have a racing engine, just a light cam and some port work.. http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html The basic API testing procedures have not changed over the years, just become MORE stringent.. "For all gasoline engines" definition is still the same, even if ZDDP levels are lower.. And the levels of this will continue to drop in all.. Pretty quick we all will have to refine out own from our own source of teradactyl poop... Thanks for the memorys, but a shot over the bow has not won the war.... ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 08:06:56 No, but $15 a quart Amisol is what the newbie picked. It was the only oil he had confidence in that met the conflicting requirements of the Savage engine to his satisfaction. And with its published specs -- it is arguably the best oil out there (just very expensive). You are right about getting men to change their minds -- we tend to be set in our ways and stubborn. Retread, you understood the opposing points and shrugged some of them off. Which is fine, you made valid points right back and you moved your position when something convinced you and it was a good discussion that was worth having. Oil is important to our semi-antique motorcycle engine, which is why we go through oil wars several times a year --- we keep getting new people and they will all watch & read the big oil war fuss because it is fun (and they soak up some education along the way). I am not sure Feelinjunky ever really connected that car oils have changed to suit 2010-12 cars and the current crop of car oils simply don't fit our old bike engine any more. He still feels he can put 2 quarts of anything in there and be just fine long term. I hope he is. Anyhow, our newbie got his oil question answered and he picked a good one (arguably the best one out there). Men do love an oil war, sometimes we even learn a little bit out of them. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by feelinjunky on 03/01/12 at 09:14:26 Well, some people may WANT engine damage in the "long term." Hence why I said "use any oil you WANT." If someone really wants to be technical and say "Does that include olive oil that I cook my food with?" my answer is: Well, that IS an oil! If that's what you want to use, no one is stopping you. Some people just can't read on this forum... Rotella, klutz, mobile1 castrol...use what brand you want as long as you think it's suitable for the motor. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by teabowl13 on 03/01/12 at 09:36:43 It's like I woke up on Groundhog day with the strangest sense of deja-Vu.... Haven't I read all this somewhere before? Now let me think... where's my glass of Kool-Aid? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 09:52:45 Teabowl, wuz it you that set off that oil war two oil wars in front of this one? ;D ;D ;D Yep, same deja vu every year. Same points, same shocked disbelief. My "you name it favorite oil brand name" wouldn't do that to me jest 'cause the guvment told them to -- I have always trusted "you name it favorite oil brand name" fer over 40 years. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by SuperSavage on 03/01/12 at 11:44:14 I guess that Red Line breakin additive really solves a lot of issues associated with our scoots. A good Jaso MA oil coupled with a shot of ZDDP should be a good elixir for what ails ye bike. Personally, I'll keep using Rotella T6, as long as I can find it. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/01/12 at 11:51:10 The problem with using a diesel oil its designed for low rpm engines,Most diesel engines don't run over 4000 rpm. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 12:53:46 You guys don't want to get all hung up over that ZDDP booster, the only reason I used it temporarily was to make sure a $250 hot cam grind was happy for the first 500 miles as per Web Cam's recommendation to the distributor (Lancer). To be honest, they recommended a dino racing oil but it was easy to back the ZDDP back out by checking the amounts in the recommended oil. For a stock Savage motor Rotella T has plenty (1,200 ppm) of ZDDP. And Bill, diesels can rev just fine -- ask any BMW or Audi or VW diesel engine owner. But it is interesting that you put the same RPM number out there that the Savage begins to top out at .... were you doing it intentionally jest to make Rotella look better? ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/01/12 at 13:03:28 Hate to be the bearerer of bad news Oldfeller, but Amsoil 10-40 MC oil is 11.55 a QT retail, my price is lower of course.. All diesels can rev just fine, however reving over a certain RPM is a waste of power, peak torque is usually down there in the RPM range, so turning the higher RPM is just wasting fuel, and engine... All engines have a sweet spot (depending on cam grind and build), the small TDIs are around 2K, this is where you'll get your best mileage.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/01/12 at 13:57:22 50737B797A73737A6D1F0 wrote:
OF your s40 tops out at 4000 rpm,Thats good I wouldn't want to go over 4100-4200 rpm on diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 14:52:36 That's right Bill, I am jest a pokey 'ol Grandpa on a puny antique silver Grandma one lung motorsickle .... pitiful, to be sure. ;D ;D ;D ;D I work hard at that image, makes it hurt worse when pokey 'ol Grandpa passes them on the inside of a turn. Truth is, my bike revs up until the valves float, just like everybody else's Savage can do if they can get past the stock cam and stock jetting. Bill, did you replace that bad battery and are you getting ready to ride it some this spring (since it is almost here already)? Ready to let the red out of it some? Vrooom ... Retread says he can get you some Amisol 10W40 for over a dollar less a quart than Klotz costs, are you interested? ;D Me, I'll buy a blue gallon jug of T6 for less than the price of two quarts of either one of your two mail-order brides. and that is without counting the shipping costs, too |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by teabowl13 on 03/01/12 at 15:30:20 684B4341424B4B4255270 wrote:
NNNOOOOOO!!! That wern't me!! I've read through too many of these for too many years to ever do that... Have FUN Y'all!! ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/01/12 at 16:35:44 How does your Rottelli hold up? http://www.amsoil.com/graphs/g2089_10w40_viscosity_600.jpg Darn it didn't even make the list? ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 17:29:57 Retread has just broken one of the main rules of oil warfare -- always state your source, give the link to get to it and always explain your graph. Cp, (since apparently I get to define it) is the Crap Profile index number and if I wuz a guessin' man I would say this is some sort of Amisol test data sheet showing mainly who Amisol considers to be their competitors (in decreasing order of threat level of course). Now once Retread gives us the link to the real data and we can go check it out, then he will get a real response. You know, Bill did this to us once -- turns out the information he quoted referred to a 1984 Moto Guzzi but it sure sounded good when he plopped it down the first time. ------ and now that I think about it, you could buy a whole big white gallon jug of Rotella Triple Protection 15w40 on sale for what just one quart of Amisol costs. And once Retread explains his graph and where it lives and all, we shall see how it stacks up against that white gallon jug as far as performance and value goes. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 03/01/12 at 17:48:58 The poise (symbol P, /[ch712]p[ch596][ch618]z/) is the unit of dynamic viscosity in the centimetre gram second system of units. It is named after Jean Louis Marie Poiseuille (and not related to the ordinary word poise, even though its meaning might seem connected). 1\ \mbox{P} = 1.00\ \mbox{g}\cdot\mbox{cm}^{-1}\cdot\mbox{s}^{-1} The analogous unit in the International System of Units is the pascal second (Pa·s): 1\ \mbox{Pa}\cdot\mbox{s} = 1\ \mbox{kg}\cdot \mbox{m}^{-1}\cdot\mbox{s}^{-1} = 10\ \mbox{P} The poise is often used with the metric prefix centi-. A centipoise is one one-hundredth of a poise, and one millipascal-second (mPa·s) in SI units. (1 cP = 10[ch8722]2 P = 10[ch8722]3 Pa·s = 1 mPa·s) Centipoise is properly abbreviated cP, but the alternative abbreviations cps, cp, and cPs are also commonly seen. Water has a viscosity of 0.00899 Poise at 25 °C and a pressure of 1 atmosphere. (0.00899 P = 0.899cP = 0.899 mPa·s) [1] All I gotta say is... I'm underwhelmed by your graph. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/01/12 at 20:00:29 While we wait for Retread to fix his stuff, here is an additional informational nugget which is a section clipped from a long article in Dirt Rider Magazine. http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=146867 The entire article is worth reading as the guy is trying to make a point about JASO being a wet clutch test & gearbox test and that's all -- it doesn't get into valve train wear per se or any other "bike specific" wear item (such as our cam chain issues). He kinda sorta slams some of the over-expensive bike oils in the process, but you gotta read the whole thing as the whole article has a pretty good overall balance to it. When we consider use of engine oil in a racing four stroke dirt bike, we must realize that there are certain factors that must be accounted for. First and foremost is the fact that oil that is used in both the engine and clutch assembly will see far more contamination than any other sort of engine. This contamination that is primarily created by the clutch materials is far more than the detergent/dispersant qualities of any oil can withstand for extended periods. There is simply too much contamination for the oil to handle. And as a result, we must consider changing out the oil on a frequent basis. And changing the oil frequently in a dirt bike can get expensive, especially if you are using high priced oil. But what about the oils used in diesel engines? These oils are normally the best at providing contamination control. A diesel engine produces lots of carbon and contamination, and the oils used in them have very high levels of detergents and dispersants to fight wear and degradation caused by contamination. These types of oils also typically contain high levels of additives to help protect the metals in the severe-service, high-torque diesel engine. There really is no such thing as “diesel engine oil”, but rather oils that are formulated for use in a severe service engine that are called “Universal” or “Heavy Duty” engine oils. These oils can carry an additional service category certification for such extreme duties. The latest service category for heavy duty engine oil applications is the ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee) is the GF4 certification. Let's compare the two standards, SAE SM standard first, then the GF4 requirements for the diesel heavy duty oils. 14 tests are called for by this standard http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c268/Jaybirdmx/SMcertificationstandards.jpg Now let’s take a look at what is required of GF4 certified oil, a much more lengthy and rigorous set of requirements. over 20 tests are called for by this standard http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c268/Jaybirdmx/GF4CertificationStandards.jpg It should be clear to you from the above certification requirements that the GF4 standards are far more stringent than that of either SM or JASO certifications. Heavy duty engine oils are just that…heavy duty. And they are formulated in a way that will serve the needs of four stroke dirt bike engine just fine. This is why we see so much evidence of riders having great luck with the heavy duty engine oils such as Shell Rotella T and Mobil Delvac. Not to mention that the prices of these HDEO’s are very reasonable .... and the sharp eyed amongst you may have noticed the diesel standard includes measuring real things like stuck rings, piston wear, ring end gap, bearing wear, cam & tappet wear and valve train wear and other real things that the bike oil standards DON'T even mention or address at all. And they have to protect at this level for a lot more miles than anyone ever dreams of running a bike oil between changes. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/02/12 at 03:19:42 04332224333732560 wrote:
Klotz wasn't on there because the chart only goes to 4.8,They didn't have big enough paper for it. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by spacepirates on 03/02/12 at 05:22:35 Oldfeller, If heavy-duty "diesel" oils are so much better (and cheaper!) why aren't they used in cars, or why aren't they used exclusively over other oils? If a higher quality product exists, that is cheaper, how can other oils even compete? or am I missing something where you can't use a heavy-duty oil in your normal car? different markets or something like that? p.s. don't read that as combative, it is early here and i'm just hazy in the head till i get some caffeine in me. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/02/12 at 08:02:42 That graph came off an Amsoil site.. I have no doubt the Rotteli is a good oil, would I use it? No, because I have seen and driven heavy duty diesel engines on a steady diet of Rotteli.. We are talking about what is best for a flat tappet engine, not what is cheaper.. TSB: MO-2007-08-08 Date: 8/8/07 Revision 2: 5/2/11 Product Description: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Subject: Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication Technical Service Bulletin OBJECTIVE: Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of fl at tappet camshaft engines and the importance of higher levels of zinc and phosphorus. ISSUES: Flat tappet camshafts undergo extreme pressure and loads, thus requiring an engine oil that is fortifi ed with antiwear additives to provide premium protection. The severity of higher spring pressure in racing engines also creates the need for additional wear protection. To preserve catalytic converter life, phosphorus levels in motor oil have been reduced. Concerns have risen that oils containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide insuffi cient protection in high-pressure areas of fl at tappets and camshaft lobes found in many older and high performance engines. TECHNICAL DISCUSSION: The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide anti-wear protection, and is most important during cam “break-in” procedures. Proper break-in lubes should be used during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with fl at tappets. These lubricants provide the extra protection required to reduce wear at the point of contact during break-in and help the fl at tappet face properly mate with the cam lobe. Once the break-in phase is completed, AMSOIL motor oils, which are formulated with high levels of zinc and phosphorus, will provide premium protection to fl at tappet cams. The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) have mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter life. However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise protection to engine components, most notably in fl at tappet camshafts. Current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 specifi cations for gasoline engines have maximum Submitted By: DP Reviewed By: DP Approved By: AA Approval Date: 5/2/11 Distribution: Internal All X Page 1 of 2 AMSOIL INC., 925 Tower Ave., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2011 and minimum phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm, respectively, for SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30 motor oils. All engines, especially high-performance modifi ed engines, benefi t from oils with superior fi lm strength and antiwear properties. The fl at tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one area in an engine that has extreme contact load. Since this load increases signifi cantly when non-stock, high-pressure valve springs are employed, the use of properly formulated motor oils is extremely important to reduce wear and extend fl at tappet/camshaft life. RECOMMENDATION: AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of zinc/phosphorus for superior protection. The following tables list many of the AMSOIL synthetic motor oils that are formulated with high levels of anti-wear additives: Primary Recommendations Phosphorus Level (ppm) Zinc Level (ppm) Z-ROD™ 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (ZRT) 1320 1440 Z-ROD™ 20W-50 Synthetic Motor Oil (ZRF) 1320 1440 Secondary Recommendations Phosphorus Level (ppm) Zinc Level (ppm) Premium Protection 10W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil (AMO) 1265 1378 Premium Protection 20W-50 Synthetic Motor Oil (ARO) 1266 1379 Series 3000 5W-30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDD) 1266 1379 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil (AME) 1267 1377 Submitted By: DP Reviewed By: DP Approved By: AA Approval Date: 5/2/11 Distribution: Internal All X Page 2 of 2 AMSOIL INC., 925 Tower Ave., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2011 Ãôk |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 09:52:53 494A5B595F4A53485B4E5F493A0 wrote:
Well, I just woke up too (work nights nowadays) so I'm sorta philosophical and mellow right now, too. All oils use to be sorta like Rotella T dino -- heavy on detergents, lots of ZDDP. Flat tappet engines were very common back then. Then the government got involved with pollution control and the catalytic converter was invented. Cat converters didn't last very long (40,000 miles) but it was the only answer folks had back then to pollution control. "Make them last longer" sez the guvment -- so the reaction was the then new SL and SM and soon to be SN oil grades which took out over half the ZDDP and replaced it with moly. Flat tappet engines started dying all over the place and the new cars were redesigned with roller tappets. Can you run Rotella products in any engine that does not have a catalytic converter (assuming the weight matches the need)? Pretty much yes -- Justin does just that. I run T6 in a set of old Acuras that have totally shot catalytic converters (both are over 150,000 miles now so the cats don't work anyway). Yes, it is tempting oil. Lots of folks use it in places that the guvment sez you should not use it. I would not use it in a newer modern car with a cat converter that sees a tailpipe test every year. That would be a very bad idea. Will current car oils work in current car motor designs? Yes .... they are designed to use the oils that are available. Would I use Rotella in a Savage or motorcycle engine that has no cat converter? Absolutely and so say many many bike people on every bike forum you look at -- it is great oil for a motorcycle engine. Value for dollar spent it is hard to argue with the Rotella stuff if you aren't dealing with a catalytic converter equipped engine. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 10:36:54 Retread, Amisol posts information that shows they outspec everyone on everything. I've visited their site before, so I have no shock and awe at seeing their claims. Furthermore, I have seen new oil VOA analysis at Bobistheoilguy that shows that Amisol's claims are mostly real, that the 1265 and 1378 numbers are in the oil as purchased. So I even believe the Amisol claims. Here's the rub, for a few hundred extra PPM of ZDDP (beyond what diesel oils carry by specification) Amisol charges 4 times as much for the dino oils and over 2 times as much for the full synthetics. That is highway robbery for what you are getting. Remember -- I can EQUAL OR EXCEED the specs that Amisol offers by adding a single NyQuil cap full of Redline ZDDP booster to an oil change of Rotella T6, but I have to question the need to keep on doing that after the cam is settled in for a whole year. The cost of the cap full is less than $3 so my whole oil change costs less than a shipped and delivered price of a single quart of Amisol. But still, our newbie in this thread was willing to pay $15 a quart for his Amisol oil change because he loves his wife and she gets the very best. So, based on the newbie's choice AMISOL WON THIS OIL WAR and we all shouted and celebrated with shooting our guns up into the air. That doesn't mean we will all run out and start using Amisol ..... Remember, we have head to head tested Amisol in our Savage engine and Verslagen and his temperature sensor couldn't tell the difference between it and Rotella T6. In a Savage, they perform equivalent to each other, with no advantage either way. Given a functional equivalent situation, why would you pay over 2x price for Amisol? Nobody on this list rips at their Savage engine more than the Dragon crew does -- Rotella dino survives just fine on those runs. T6 may even be a bit of overkill in a Savage engine (but I can afford it) so where does that leave the "need" to pay 2-4x the price for Amisol? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Boule’tard on 03/02/12 at 11:27:32 This has been great info-tainment Oldfeller ;D I too raise my AK to the smashing VICTORY Amsoil has achieved, and will continue to run it until my supply runs out, and I can't find more for half off. Amsoil CRUSHES its enemies, MUAHAHahahAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh. ;D Question: If you buy say, the Redline zddp supplement and add it to the blue jug Rotella, is there a maximum beyond which your clutch will start slipping? If not (and for cost purposes) what is a good point of diminished returns. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 03/02/12 at 11:31:13 O'fella... you keep sellin' Rotella and the price keeps going up. Let the bills of the world do what they do... buy klotz, amsoil... whatever. Just leave the rotsyn to the dragon crew. wanta amsoil sticker fer yer bike? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/02/12 at 11:49:12 You guys keep buying your $ store oil just keep the rpms below the 4000 rpm cut off point. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 12:03:27 4C415B424B5A4F5C4A2E0 wrote:
Boule, if you are running a stock cam you don't need the booster at all as you are only a couple of hundred ppm off from Amisol from the get go and you don't really need the excess anyway in a stockish engine. If you jest want to use it on top of T6 to equal Amisol, just use a Pepto Bismol or Nyquil plastic cup full (that is all you need as you are only bumping up a little bit). I used a full shot glass of the stuff to get up to the 2200 ppm break in oil range, which is more than folks use normally for anything. ZDDP doesn't cause clutch slippage at any rational amounts ever used. ZDDP can be over done, it can cause oil acidification if used above 2400 ppm levels. Furthermore, it has decreasing additional benefits beyond 2400 ppm (more simply circulates endlessly as all exposed metal is already fully coated to the point it simply won't accept any more). Lastly, huge ZDDP levels never stay around long enough in a motorcycle engine to get used up over time -- we change out at about 5,000 - 8,000 miles even on a yearly oil change basis. ;D Remember, even Retread says truckers got 10,000 miles out of standard white jug dino Rotella T back in the day when he was driving. Verslagen, I gots some purty Redline stickers but I won't ever use them -- the granny sickle flies low under the radar until it is time to pass 'em and grin at them. The whole fat old man on the granny sickle requires worn paint, bad clearcoat, the whole 10 year old neglected bike look. Makes a Ducati rider look right sick when he comes in behind you and gets off his bike at the Dragon Lodge and stops and studies the bike. "I got beat by this ???" |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/02/12 at 12:22:25 http://www.oilextreme.com/tech2.html Interesting.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 12:44:31 Yes it is interesting. I was looking at Walmart Supertech 5w30 synthetic on Bobistheoilguy (wife has a new Nissan Cube that she jest loves) and they are using this calcium carbonate technology. Calcium carbonate ---- Bromo selzer? Tums? :D Tum de tum tums ... I think it is relatively new and must prove out over time that it protects engines over the entire life span, but it is available now and it meets catalytic converter requirements in roller tappet car engines. Will it take over the role of ZDDP in all roller tappet modern car engines -- mebbe, I dunno. Seems to be headed that way. Will it take over the antique plain tappet role in Savages, old Corvettes, VWs, Porches, Corvairs, etc --- so far it has not even made a dent. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/02/12 at 13:00:34 Klotz is a paraffin based oil. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Boule’tard on 03/02/12 at 14:13:28 33383D3D6766510 wrote:
http://www.klotzwarehouse.com/printable.php?show_aux_page=6 Group one oil: These are the old high paraffin base oils. They are not used for modern engine oils anymore but can still be found in those little bottles of all-purpose household oil you buy at the hardware store for stuff like oiling door hinges. ;D Sorry I couldn't help it.. too funny.. ;D will resist better next time.. ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by arteacher on 03/02/12 at 14:39:08 Most car service people use ATF to lubricate car door hinges, but I made up some stuff with 75% 30 wt non det oil and 25% brake fluid. works a charm as a general lube for just about anything. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 15:09:18 Bill is kinda sorta right after a fashion, in as much as he ever is. Rotella uses a base oil that is made from a homogeneous oil byproduct called slack wax that is dual processed into a uniform single molecule base oil that is the same oil that is used by Lamborghini as the base oil for their car oil. It sorta fits into class III and is sometimes called class IV depending on who is doing the picking, although it has some abuse resistant characteristics that throw it more towards the "unique chemical makeup" class in some folks eyes. The base oil works really well holding its viscosity and resisting shear, which is one of the strong points of T6. So, Bill can inappropriately razz us that he thinks it is made from some really lazy toilet ring wax (he can remember that, I think) source is: http://205.243.146.146/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2169022 quote is: Rotella T6 is based on Shell's XHVI base oil. Its a Group III derived by processing slack wax and performs as well as, better in some respects, than a Group IV. It is indeed sometimes called "group III+" base stock. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/02/12 at 16:17:37 Rotella group 3 not a real synthetic oil Klotz group 5 real synthetic oil. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 16:37:42 Hey Bill, see what you can misconstrue out of this one .... ;D Me, I think running the same oil base as Lamborghini and Ferrari use in their formula 1 race cars is "A-OK" by my book. But it isn't dyed red, so it isn't good enough for Bill. source: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1367272 quote: "It is true that ROTELLA T Synthetic is Group III (not PAO) based, but you must keep in mind that not all Group III base oils are created equal. ROTELLA T Synthetic is made with Shell's XHVI base oil, which unlike other Group IIIs does not begin as distilled crude oil, hence of all Group III base oils, XHVI is truly the only one that can legitimately be called "synthetic." XHVI is a wax isomerate, meaning that it is made from the slack wax removed from distilled crude in normal solvent dewaxing. This slack wax is catalytically transformed (isomerized) and hydrofinished into a chemically pure base oil which rivals PAO in virtually every category. There are other "synthetic" oils out there based on Group III, but Shell's is unique in that it uses XHVI base oil. Chevron and Petro-Canada produce Group III base oils that come close to XHVI, but even though these oils are all hydroprocessed and utilize the same type of isomerization technology employed in the making of XHVI, they are not the same thing. Only XHVI is made from pure petroleum slack wax and its CAS number is 92026-09-4. The CAS number for the more typical all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils is 64742-54-7. If you want to know what your "synthetic" oil is made from, take a look at the MSDS and look for these numbers. (The CAS number for PAO is 68037-01-4). In brief, don't be so quick to dismiss Rotella T Synthetic as just another "synthetic pretender." It's made with the same base oil as Shell's Helix Ultra, and everytime you see Ferrari win a Formula 1 race, that's the oil in the engine." Guy's, my secret is out -- I use Ferrari/Lamborgini magic in my sump, which is why I can beat all them various various vehicles up there in the mountains. ;) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/02/12 at 17:21:49 OF if you like shell you should be using helix Ultra that would get you one step closer to Klotz. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/02/12 at 17:26:18 Bill, are ya sure you want to claim Klotz is a group 5 oil? That's the "Special Olympics Group -- we ain't really sure what it is or what it's good for" oil classification .... Group III Hydroprocessing and Refining: Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oil products have become more common in America during the past decade. Examples of Gr. III oils are Mobil 1, Castrol, Pennzoil, etc Group IV = Chemical Reactions( All polyalphaolefins-PAOs ): Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications. Examples of Gr. IV PAO's are Amsoil entire line except for their XL oils and the PCO Synthetic Blend diesel, Red Line and Royal Purple. And by definition the chemically engineered oils produced by chemically catalyzing & reacting a group III fully refined slack wax into a superior class of mono-molecule shear and heat resistant full synthetic oil such as Rotella T6, Shell Helix Ultra and the Ferrari/Lamborgini Formula 1 racing oils) Alias "the good stuff" Group V = All others not included in Groups I, II, III or IV (Esters): Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils exhibit a wide variety of properties specific to each individual oil's formulation. Group V base oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils. Includes all the miscellanious red "magical oils" such as Klotz and Pixie Power Plus but with the noted exception of Marvel Mystery Oil which is not oil at all, but a mix of kerosene and naptha with a red #2 added for some mysterious reason or another. Sorry guys, I wuz jest pokin' at Bill some so he won't get all ignored & lonely. Whut is blue is true, whut is red is mostly true but is carefully doctored with some extra nettles and rock salt jest fer Bill to choke down dry .... Gotta have us some fun, occasionally ... :D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Gyrobob on 03/09/12 at 05:38:30 klotz schmotz. Rotella is the best lube for aircooled motorcycles available. The fact it is so cheap is nice, too. I'm getting ready for the trip to Daytona,... just changed the oil. hmmmm, I think I used Rotella. Yup,.. Sure did. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/09/12 at 05:47:47 You finally got something right,Rotella is cheap.So are Macdonald hamburgers. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/09/12 at 07:15:29 I'm changing to KY jelly, the only lube I'm sure of anymore...... ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by LANCER on 03/09/12 at 08:59:07 7C4B5A5C4B4F4A2E0 wrote:
Hmmm, it DOES work well in certain circumstances. However, I do prefer KY Silk. 8-) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 11:57:08 Let's see .... Bill has gone and done made a correct analogy that Rotella is inexpensive and good, like McDonalds is inexpensive and good. Lots & lots of people eat at Greasy Mac's every day because it is readily available, inexpensive and good. (just like the Rotella oil products are readily available, inexpensive and good) I eat there, you eat there, we all eat there, so we all understand the analogy Bill has made. Rotella is the Big Mac of motorcycle oils .... What Bill needs from us is a little help on the other side of the analogy. If Rotella is equal to McDonalds, then Klotz is equal to ....? (hint: what sort of food type do you generally have to mail order, that is ridiculously expensive and that you never can find anywhere in your local town?) Nutra system? Jenny Craig? Tofurky®? ;D Tofurky® = a fake turkey made from tofu (processed soy bean curds) What other types of mail order food meet Bill's analogy? ====================== Since Bill seems to be heading towards losing this oil war too, we need to start talking about executing his sentence from the last oil wars that he lost. How about we rename his list name to Tofurky® in remembrance of this and the prior oil wars. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsKHQtMM40&feature=related[/media] |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 13:40:08 Now, to get that ugly ugly mental image of tofurky's bald head all roasted brown and sliced up on a plate from out of your personal private mind's eye ... Rotella T6, alias the good stuff (as denoted by Bill hisself) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-svlRdTZ9M[/media] Play through this video 2-3 times until the smell and sight and thought of whatever it was that little black & white kitty cat was planning to do to tofurky's hot sliced brain leaves your mind completely and forever ...... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/09/12 at 15:41:28 58555A5751460603340 wrote:
Hmmm, it DOES work well in certain circumstances. However, I do prefer KY Silk. 8-)[/quote] I am not going to start a KY fight!!!!! :o |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 15:53:06 mmmmm? ..... and Retread, what circumstances might that be ???? (curious minds might NOT want to know) ;D glad I'm on the opposite side of the no-man's land from this one ... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by built2last66 on 03/09/12 at 16:12:02 74575F5D5E57575E493B0 wrote:
I don't think that cat would even touch that tofu turkey crap... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 16:27:19 Upon request this post has been sanitized with Clorox and Ajax http://www.head-hunter.com/images/9head.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by LANCER on 03/09/12 at 17:00:30 0B2820222128282136440 wrote:
Be nice...no personal stuff ok, I sanitized it with some Clorox and Ajax -- didn't make him look any prettier, believe me |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 18:08:46 As is normal with most oil wars, towards the end they tend degenerate into nonsense. This one has degenerated into KY jelly wars and mummified heads. The one before that was hillbillies and big fishhooks The one before that was Ulma Thurman coming to KILL BILL .... so, on that note, unless somebody has something to say about motorcycle oil, mebbe this one has run its course too. Bill, did you say Bill? http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/k/kill_bill-10066.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/09/12 at 18:21:57 And just like a Savage with Rotella in it, this conversation went downhill fast! ;D ;D ;D ;) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/09/12 at 20:17:49 Yep, and all the participants will spend the next few weeks healing up their wounds and stocking up on rocket grenades and mortar shells, all the while waiting fer the next foolish newbie to ask that one critical question ..... "Hey fellas, I was wondering if I can run synthetic oil in the engine? Being the clutch , tranny, and engine are all using the same oil. Will the clutch slip? If I can use it , what kind of synthetic oil are you using? Thanks, Rich" |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by dozerman on 03/10/12 at 11:33:53 I thought that running oil without knowing if it was compatible would be foolish. Not asking a question on Suzuki savage FORUM about my SUZUKI SAVAGE!!!!! Rich |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Serowbot on 03/10/12 at 11:48:59 Dozer,.. It's not that the question is foolish... The question is smart... ... It's our answers that get foolish.. When it comes to oil,.. we're not of one mind... In fact,... all combined, we're barely of half a mind... :-?... ;)... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by SuperSavage on 03/10/12 at 22:16:34 I'm willing to run JASO-MA, Amsoil or Klotz in my Suzi if someone wants to purchase and ship to me gratis. I will be non-partisan in my research. If no takers, I will continue to use JASO-MA Rotella T-6 and reap the rewards. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/11/12 at 00:06:45 Newbies are not foolish, (sorry, my stupidity for ever saying so) Questions are not foolish, The Endless Oil War, now that might be foolish :D (but its fun, and marginally entertaining and educational all at the same time) Fact is, you NEVER change a guy's mind simply by telling him something just once. Letting him express his beliefs and then letting him have time to change them (for what he considers sufficient reasons) now that can change a guy's mind some of the time. So far most of those involved in these wars have made intelligent decisions based on facts presented during the what, ?12 fold? endless oil war. Here's a fact for Bill and Retread, Amisol isn't bad oil at all (and we know what's in it, too). It is just too too expensive for what you get. Klotz is still a big unknown as their base oil "Estorlin" is a completely undefined registered trade mark, not a description of an actual oil base. Klotz's claim to be made completely of group 5 oil is likely bogus too, as esters do not make up a complete base oil at all (unless you would want one that dissolved all the rubber in your engine over the first oil change that is). Last real fact for this latest issue of the oil war -- Savage engines will keep on running on any form of oil much better than not having oil at all -- running out of oil is what kills more Savages than any thing else. Preventing "running out of oil" on longer trips is VERY important, so carry some with you and check it frequently while on your trip. All Savages with over 15-20,000 on the clock will likely use some oil. The "Suzuki oil check method" puts you with very little reserve oil carried in your sump, so please do keep a close check on it. The "List oil check method" is superior to the "Suzuki oil check method", but that's another brand of oil war entirely .... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/11/12 at 04:15:33 7257505656415B594C0A080909380 wrote:
Just remember SS you reap what you sow.The better the sow the better the reap. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/11/12 at 08:20:45 7B7075752F2E190 wrote:
Just remember SS you reap what you sow.The better the sow the better the reap.[/quote] Oh no Mr. Bill !!! Not reap'n the sow again !!! http://www.akidsphoto.com/pht01/critterspht/pig07.jpg Uh oh --- Bill's been playing banjo music over next to the pig pen again. Twice no less .... (Has the one on the right even got a tail? The one on the left certainly has Bill's ears, don't cha think?) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Retread on 03/11/12 at 08:36:11 Steady diet of Rotella.. http://www.swineline.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fat-Pig.jpg ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/11/12 at 08:46:08 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEPksCPHHeo&feature=related[/media] These are the Rotella Ferarri racing pigs, that ugly fat sloppy thing up above is a real Klotz of a pig (you can see the synthetic hormone estorlin crusted all over his nose). ================= and, for Retread's personal enjoyment The Amisol pigs http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kHpAP39uhMw/Sq08OYYKQAI/AAAAAAAAA-A/9cNmeon0dp8/s400/2661280198_b0e4dd0a5f_b.jpg They only come in a matching set for only $150,000 per quart (plus shipping of course) ;D |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Boule’tard on 03/11/12 at 10:41:01 193A3230333A3A3324560 wrote:
Egads, 12 battles?? That almost deserves a stickied index at the top of RSD. ======== :D What oil should I get? (an index of oil wars) "This thread serves as a place for noobies to find answers to the age old mother of all questions: "What oil is best?" Also, veterans can recount their thrilling victories.. and crushing defeats. Oldfeller and others will often pepper up these threads with hilarious war metaphors and other jokes while serving up a heapin' helpin' of oil info. These threads are both educational and fun to read. Feel free to suggest new threads for the index if they were missed, or when new ones come up. This thread is not an oil war itself, it is just the index. The whole thread does not have to be an oil war, skirmishes of only a couple pages can be included too. We'll link to the correct pages here." ======== But then I looked at the 1st instances of the phrase "oil war" on the site.. those threads, starting about 2005, make reference to OTHER oil wars, with comments like "our oil wars always seem to get deleted around here.." http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Templates/Forum/default/cry.gif Sadly, we won't be able to chronicle the whole saga. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by verslagen1 on 03/11/12 at 11:08:23 bringing the skeletons out of the closet? might want to lock the old threads least they go on to haunt us forever. Oil temps and usage comparison (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283117891/215#215) |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/11/12 at 13:07:03 That's where I left my Bill hook .... (done been looking for that ever since Bill started wiggling like a squirmy worm again) ;D ;D ;D ;D http://www.blueoceantackle.com/Shark_Hook_004.jpg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by bill67 on 03/11/12 at 14:09:29 4261696B686161687F0D0 wrote:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/eyeball.jpeg She caught me but didn't want to kill me,I can't say what she wanted. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/eye2.jpeg |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by cornfuzed on 03/14/12 at 18:51:43 Umm so ok its been a while since i posted anything but had to... Versy / Ol Feller... Dam you two are scary smart when it comes to this oil stuff ... Like who the crap knew what cP was? Thats usually what i du after some beers... 8-) Any who i just roll with T6 with a coupla ounces of MotorKote and the ol girl seems happy so hey i stay with it...no none nadda clutch slippages no more! >:( Psst! Dooont use Schaffers 20w50 in our bikes... You will NOT like the results...least yer clutch wont! Their ad says its safe for common Sump trannys ... As bugs bunny usta say... DOOONT YOOU BEELIEEVE IT... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/15/12 at 10:46:34 https://www.motorkote.com Additive junkies -- ya jest gotta love them. This stuff doesn't even say what it does to help your engine. Description sounds a lot like STP's historical 1960's stuff or the Slick 50 adds from the 90's. This sounds sorta like a boundary film PTFE type of additive, which would be stone bad news for a wet clutch if this is the true case. IF -- once again it is all a secret. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by cornfuzed on 03/24/12 at 11:08:25 16353D3F3C35353C2B590 wrote:
All i can attest to my friend is that ive been using the stuff for over what 2 years and better than 6k miles on both my S40 an 10k on the royalstar and both have been improved in clutch and performance. Before i tried it back in '09 i followed some posts at my royalstar forum.. have a peek if yer instrested... so far nothin but good results as it does not blend with the oil whatsoever... im sold on it for one... now there is a threat on BITOG about TUFOIL/Motorkote but doesnt appear to affect motorkote whatsoever... talks more about TUFOIL and chlorine...I know motorkote states in their advertising No cholrine and its been around fer years an no lawsuits from the FEDS about false advertising like some of the other additives ... but hey like anything its what floats yer boat... Anywho check out these if yer interested... http://venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39828&highlight=motorkote An thats WITH using Rotella T6 Oyl... 8-) Good Stuff fer me... |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/24/12 at 11:36:57 Whatever it really is ..... However it really functions ..... You likes it. We hereby award you with the 2012 Bill award for "unquestioning faith in an oil additive" subset "contradictory and unsupported marketing claims" Congratulations !! |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/12 at 13:48:41 Ill start usin a SYN Thetical oil when I get me a SYN Thetical Motor,, |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by cornfuzed on 03/24/12 at 14:13:18 6E4D4547444D4D4453210 wrote:
;D ;D Eh... What the hell do i know anyways? ;D ;D You DIDNT havta award me a Bill award though... .Sheesh :P |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Gyrobob on 03/27/12 at 17:29:38 If you were a chemical engineer with years and years of experience developing and testing motor oils for air-cooled motors (IOW, a REAL expert, not a forum-opinionater), you'd know that putting additives in a name-brand oil developed for that purpose would only degrade the performance of the oil. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/12 at 17:56:36 Heck Fire! Mite as well dump wheat germ in it.. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/27/12 at 20:38:26 Me happy cave man camper !!! Me throw no rocks at innocents, me actually have used "additive" called ZDDP Booster which contains high quality (high vapor temperature) ZDDP concentrate cut with a known good group III based synthetic base oil. Me used it according to mix recommendations, to achieve a certain PPM level as requested by Web Cam through research done by their distributor (Lancer) in order to give happy 500 mile break in period to hot assed new Stage II cam. Me know what is in it, why it should work and what it does for me. Me might throw a bone or two at people who use what they know not what it is for reasons they can't explain -- me give Bill awards out only as needed. ugh .... :D Old Cave Feller |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/12 at 21:34:43 ZDDP Used to be common in oil,removed for EPA regs, right? I dont think using that even qualifies as an additive, just puttin back what otta been there in the first place, IMO. If you want your Guzzi to run long, youll add it to the rear end, |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by SuperSavage on 03/27/12 at 21:40:23 4F5056514C4B7A4A7A42505C17250 wrote:
I believe it clogs the catalytic converters on cars. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/12 at 22:33:31 Thats what I was thinking I remembered,, surely we cant Both be wrong, right? |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by Oldfeller on 03/28/12 at 09:09:19 Ain't got no catalytic converters on a Savage to clog up -- got some flat tappets though that need the ZDDP or they will flat fail on you over twenty something thousand miles. |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by cornfuzed on 03/28/12 at 13:20:39 4678736E636E63010 wrote:
8-) You could say Ive tried "chemical engineering" I found out that the chemicals in beer dont mix well with the chemicals in cornsqueezins... Well the chemicals in my body when i was younger didnt mix well with Everclear either... Sheesh those were INTERESTING TIMES! .. :o |
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Title: Re: synthetic oil? Post by cornfuzed on 03/28/12 at 13:21:09 7E5D5557545D5D5443310 wrote:
;D ;D I enjoyed that one! ;D ;D |
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