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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> this is definitely not a good sign.... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1329776138 Message started by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 14:15:38 |
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Title: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 14:15:38 was dooing my valve seals because I get a heavy cloud of smoke every time I start my bike, but perhaps my seals were fine this whole time... I have no idea what to do, if this is part of my head, if I can leave it, fix it, weld it, replace it,....... :( http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3476/1021477g.jpg |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 14:28:34 further research and inspection describes this piece as a Valve guide, which is supposed to be quite difficult to replace without proper expertise and proper tools. does anybody have any information on this piece and how one can perform the swap themselves? |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Serowbot on 02/20/12 at 14:42:24 You're right,... not a good sign... I think you're gonna' have to find a good machine shop... |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/12 at 15:05:18 & why did it break would be another question Id have. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 15:08:53 beats me. ive just fabricated a punch that fits the inside of the guide, and Im hoping I can order one of these guides. did some more research and you're supposed to toss these suckers in the oven, then pound out the old guides and 'ream', whatever that means, CLOCKWISE, when you are installing the new guide. thats where Im confused. hopefully someones done this before. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 15:24:22 If you have never used a hand reamer before i dont advise doing it for the first time your self on your motor. Find a good shop that can machine ream it or is comfortable hand reaming. If you mess up hand reaming your tolerance will be off or possibly egg oit the bore of the hole. Then you will never get another sleeve in there. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by verslagen1 on 02/20/12 at 15:48:14 I agree... get a shop to do it. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 16:14:23 what exactly is reaming? where would be thhe best place to get it done? a motorcycle shop, machine shop, specialty fabricator, suzuki dealer? is it an expensiv or tedious job, or can they whip it up for cheap and under an hour? |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 16:25:36 Reaming is using a specially HSS precision ground tool that "cuts" the surface of the bore. One that is made to whatever size you need is very exspensive. Unless the bore is a standard size even doing it at a shop can be pricy. Another option is line boring. Find a shop that has a HBM and it will be much cheaper. But deff go to a machine shop. Valve guides require precise work. Think of that guide as you would your piston sleeve. Same principle. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 16:28:48 I would also recomend leaving the removal of the old sleeve to the shop. So you dont score the surface. This is not a one day fix. Will probably have to leave it for a few days. As for price, first it depends on the shop, second, do not pay until job is complete and they measure everything with you present and can show it matches OEM specs. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 16:29:11 i hope the local machine shop can pull something like that off. I was reading up on valve service, and read from a forum member you should NOT clean the valve seats. well I had my entire head soaking in hot water and soap and was just cleaning up all the oil and carbon deposits and gasket sillicone around the mating surfaces decide it would be a good idea to clean up the valve seats and spark plug area. is this a bad thing? should i stick to pedal bikes? :-X |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 16:43:39 By not cleaning they mean no scraping or scrubbing with anything abrasive. If it doesnt come of with the soap and water, dont fret it. Just wipe it with oil. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Serowbot on 02/20/12 at 17:05:22 33292C2C3924292C2C39400 wrote:
;D... Having to go to the machine shop, is not a failure of your abilities... You've just reached a point that requires their expertise... At this point, trying to DIY will put you on a pedal bike... Hey!,.. wait a minute!... what's wrong with pedal bikes?... :-?... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/savlmmn010.gif |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 18:16:24 7F2D212424637D7A797573140 wrote:
I used a brass brush and cleaned them out nice and smooth and clean, something to my understanding shouldnt have been done. Ill go to the bike shop tomorrow to get an opinion then find a machinist whos capable of doing the task. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 18:35:09 If you were in the jax area ide say bring em too me. Could line bore and hone/ machine ream for about 75 bucks. Including press in new guide. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/20/12 at 18:40:53 If possible find a shop that will bore it out instead of pressing or beating the old sleeve out. Boring it will slowly cut away the old one until it becomes so thin it either falls apart or you machine to original size. Pressing it out can ruin the original size of the hole by taking some surrounding metal with it, then the new one doesnt fit as tightly as it should. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 21:17:49 I wonder if one of the local bike shops here would know how to do this or where to successfully do this. in all honesty if this is going to be an expensive fix I'd almost just run the prick on a cheap fix as it was doing fine before :( |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Serowbot on 02/20/12 at 21:33:02 Sorry Silly,... but it won't last long without a proper fix... I think $50 to $100 might do it,.. plus the work of pulling the head... It would be worth it to me... Serow |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/20/12 at 23:08:51 heads already pulled and dcleaned up nicely. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/21/12 at 00:09:01 This isnt a DIY thing unless youre an experienced & well equipped kinda guy, The $$$ to get it done right is low compared to the $$$ you could spend getting it fixed after trying to do it yourself, especially if you buy a reamer, |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/21/12 at 13:55:03 im waiting for a call back from an automotive shop known for doing that stuff. this is starting to look like a lot of money. may as well start looking for a new head, but if I do that then a new engine, or I should just find an entire parts bike.... |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Retread on 02/23/12 at 07:23:39 Used to do it all the time.. Had an oven in my old shop, just heat up the head to about 300', then squirt a little cold water down the guide, they almost fall out.. Have your new guides ready to drop in, sometimes they take a little tap.. Reaming the new guides takes just one pass, take your new valve to the local parts store, they will fix you up with a ream.. Put new valves in with your new guides, don't forget to lap em... But the easy way is to order the new guides/valves and take it to the local engine machine shop, NAPA usually has one on site.. Probably be around fifty bucks.. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/25/12 at 10:36:20 ive got it sent off to the auto shop for a quote, they dont know if they have that size of reamer or not. new valves??? what do they cost and whats the benefit vs leaving them or replacing them? |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Retread on 02/25/12 at 14:55:07 Around $80 for new valves, $50 for new guides.. Parts.. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/26/12 at 04:53:55 Ive watched mechanics do the valves on a car. They dont just replace every valve, they look at them & ditch the ones that need replaced, the valves in your bike are used, but I have a hard time believing theyre all ruined,, |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by MMRanch on 02/26/12 at 20:06:37 I was thinking of , like retread said : alumum head will swell up more than steel valve guide when heated , then shrink the valve guide with a few ounces of cold water , followed by a light blow from a heavy hamer and a good fitting punch The old one should just fall out and while the heads hot , quickly pop the new one in with a light blow from a LIGHT FIBER hammer. Thats if it were mine , however I have a well equipted Tractor-Shop. ;) |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Retread on 02/26/12 at 20:48:14 Just a squirt.. Once the heated head is removed from the oven (use Ma's oven mitt) just have a squirt can (like oil squirt can) filled with cold water, a punch just slightly larger than the valve stem. Have your new guide at ready, quick squirt down the center of the old guide, and a light tap.. Most of the time they fly right out, you can usually just insert the new guide and give it a light tap to seat it.. Let the head cool naturally, I have done it many times.. A little more work on the sixteen valve engines, can only do four at a time between heat ups... :-X |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/26/12 at 21:09:43 The old one should just fall out and while the heads hot , quickly pop the new one in with a light blow from a LIGHT FIBER hammer. Or, bypass the oven completely, & just give it a shot with your Light Saber. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/27/12 at 12:28:39 then whats with all this reaming and alignment talk? how come a few of you are against doing it yourself, while others believe its a piece of cake? Anyway, it's sent off the auto shop for a quote. if it's too much, I can hopefully by the head from LANCER. if all else fails, I have my old powdercoating oven to heat the prick up and try it myself. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Savage_Rob on 02/27/12 at 20:14:45 Retread's idea actually makes sense to me too, even being an amateur myself. Get the whole thing hot, then cause the guide to contract by cooling it quickly, at least enough to free it. If it doesn't work, no harm... go with one of your alternate plans. I know that's kinda how you set the float level in my Amal carb, though I don't need to get it as hot. You immerse the float bowl in boiling water for a bit, remove it and tap the brass float needle seat in the desired direction using a brass rod. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/12 at 20:27:27 betcha brake cleaner would be good way to cool those hot guides quickly. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/12 at 20:31:38 & the chemicals in it will vaporize immediately, dont do it,. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by dasch on 02/28/12 at 00:55:08 Don't they heat the head, freeze the guide, then press it out. I don't think it's hammered out, too risky. There's got to be a handy trick for removal of these, I never done it, though. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by dasch on 02/28/12 at 00:56:51 There! Sorry, I just saw the 2nd and 3rd page :-[ 66514046515550340 wrote:
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by k9500winmag on 02/28/12 at 03:44:41 Just saying. I work in a machine shop/ production facility, and some of the worst jobs that come in are one that people tried to do them selves and failed. Instead if having a clean sheared off bolt to work with, people will grab them with vise grips or pliers, or try to drill them, and tear it up. So when they come to us a 5 minute job becomes an hour. And then we charge a dumba** fee. Depending, sometimes we will just turn people away once they have messed with it. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Retread on 02/28/12 at 08:36:55 Thats like th old shop motto, "Labor is twenty bucks and hour, if you help, fifty!" |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by greenmonster on 02/28/12 at 09:15:58 I wish I could find a place that labour is only twenty bucks an hour. |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 02/28/12 at 10:38:06 still no word from the shop, I can assume they will get back to me some time this week. If not, there's surely gotta be a few heads floating around for sale? |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by sillydilly on 04/05/12 at 12:14:35 I got the head back awhile ago, they did it for $90. Im pretty happy, except I decided to start putting the engine back together and I noticed they didnt use a C clip for the valve guide to hold it in... here's a pic, new one on the right. http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5893/1021586.jpg Did they purposely leave it out? did they not order it in? what do I do |
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Title: Re: this is definitely not a good sign.... Post by Retread on 04/05/12 at 12:40:41 Go back to the shop and ask em about the wire c-clip, they do have a assorted c-clip selection at the local auto parts store.. |
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