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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Gas leak from airbox vent /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1318547570 Message started by steve73 on 10/13/11 at 16:12:49 |
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Title: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/13/11 at 16:12:49 Hi My wife is the proud owner of a 2001 LS650. We got it a few months ago with 17,000 miles on it. She sat on it once and instantly KNEW it was the bike for her. I did the test ride and it was fine. After I bought it, my wife went for a ride and it stalled every time she came to a stop. Figures :-[ I found this forum and got to work searching. Fantastic site! I figured out it was the petcock so I went online and ordered a Raptor. Meanwhile, we set the petcock to prime and everything was fine... my wife absolutely LOVES this bike... until one morning she told me there was gas under the bike. She stopped riding at that point. Bike was getting hard to start. Raptor hadn't arrived yet. I ordered a bunch of stuff, intending to do the full overhaul on this bike and make most of the mods recommended here. Again, you guys are great! Parts arrived and I got to work: -Raptor petcock (yes I plugged the vacuum port on the other side of the carb... I followed instructions from this forum) -NGK iridium spark plug -new oil filter / synthetic oil -valve adjustment (just had to check - all were between .003 and .005) -pulled carb completely out and apart - and it's pretty clean inside, just a teensy tiny amount of sediment at the bottom of the bowl (on the left side, where the bike leans on the stand) -Dynojet stage 1 kit. Previous owner had already pulled the brass mix plug and had it around 3 turns out. I put it at 1.5 turns per the DynoJet instructions -New crankcase breather tube (old one had a crack at cylinder end) -Adjusted rear brake -Stainless steel front brake line is here but waiting for pads to arrive so I can get the brakes out of the way all at once -Got the red / high-temp sealant for the plug/cap thing - there's a fair amount of oil evident on the cylinder fins but then I was getting tired and wasn't sure if I had to pull the entire engine out and was anxious to get the bike running again (deal with the plug oil leak later) Okay, back to the story. Got everything all put back together, filled up the gas and she fired right up. Took her for a run down the street and she felt better through the range (just up to about 35 mph) and idling was much better. The choke was actually useful (used to just make 'er die). Backfire is now more of a puff/fart at shutdown vs. a louder pop. Feeling pretty satisfied with myself 8-) I left the Raptor ON, not OFF (or FUEL, or whatever it is). Next morning, gas under the bike again. AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! Traced the line and it's leaking out of the airbox vent, which, apparently, is supposed to have a plug. Mine does NOT so it's not pooling in the airbox (it's pooling on the concrete floor). Interestingly, the manual shows TWO vents, but one of mine is plugged at the airbox. Don't know what that's about. Seems the OEM petcock was bad AND I had another problem being masked by the bad petcock. Hoo boy. Came back to the trusty Savage forums here and my best guess is the carb float and/or the needle valve. Found someone saying to test it by pulling the bowl and holding up the float with your finger while you turn the petcock ON... Okay, easy enough... that was successful, meaning if I held the float up, no gas. Let it down and gas came pouring out (I had a rag in place to catch the gas). Float/valve seem to be okay. Now as to whether the float is actually FLOATING, this I don't know. If the valve is working, how do I know if the float will float? It's not binding, it's light and floaty and no gas was leaking out of it and I couldn't find any holes in it. So... how do I test to see if the float is floating and shutting off the valve? I can't very well stick a camera in there while it's sealed up :-/ Pointers/suggestions? Am I off base? Anything else to check? |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/11 at 16:33:21 I hope you checked to make sure the oil wasnt full of gas, The carb vents are supposed to go to open air, not the airbox, |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Boule’tard on 10/13/11 at 16:44:12 Welcome Steve, If you have a clogged vent, or a vent capped that shouldn't be, in some cases that can pressurize the bowl enough to spew gas to the airbox before the float valve can close. That's how it is with the gs500 anyway, see this thread: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=33835.0 It might also be a bit of junk or dinged needle/seat that would cause a slow leak of the float valve that isn't apparent when you try it with the bowl off. Definitely take the needle out and blast the whole path out with carb cleaner. A fuel filter would probably help this prob not come back if there's any junk in the tank. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by verslagen1 on 10/13/11 at 16:48:18 The carb bowl vents aren't supposed to be plugged or connected to anything. the higher you hold the ends the least likely they are to leak. from the factory, they are tucked into a open frame tube right above the carb. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/13/11 at 18:15:13 I'm not talking about the carb vents. I know about the 2 carb vents - they vent up along the frame under the tank. They are, however, higher than the air intake to the carb. I suspect the fuel is rising into the body of the carb and draining back into the airbox before the fuel level gets high enough to spew out of the carb vents. Alas, that would only change *where* the gas is leaking, not *that* the gas is leaking. When I had the tank off, I did blow into them to make sure they were not obstructed. I suppose I could put the bowl back on, take out the air filter, turn on the petcock, and watch to see if my suspicion is correct. I agree that it could be the float valve, but the leak isn't slow... it's a steady drip-drip (2-3 drips per second) when it's leaking. I would notice that much leakage when I did the "push up the float" test. I guess I'm just trying to see what I can do without taking off the carb again. :-/ I did check the oil and I think it's good. Won't hurt to change it again, though. Reluctant to do so until I know I'm not going to risk dumping gas into it again. After digging into this for the past couple of weeks, I'm considering the inline fuel filter... but definitely not a priority until I can figure out why I'm spilling gas on the garage floor. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Serowbot on 10/13/11 at 18:32:14 Since you have a Raptor,... and still have the leak,.. it absolutely has to be in the float bowl... 1. Pull the floats and submerge them in a bowl of water... Watch for any bubbles... Take them out, and shake them,... listen for any liquid inside... Replace if needed... 2. Pull the float needle and seat,... feel that the rubber tip is still pliable, clean them and reinstall... 3. Reinstall the floats,... move them up and down on the pivot and make sure that they move very smoothly... 4. Adjust the float level tab so that the needle seats when the floats are just about horizontal... 5. reassemble the carb,... then blow into the fuel inlet (with your mouth), while tilting the carb from vertical to 90' sideways... you should feel the needle seal in the seat and create serious resistance to the incoming air... 6. If air doesn't shut off,.. replace the needle and seat... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Oldfeller on 10/13/11 at 18:50:50 Now Steve, this is very important ---- immediately go check to see if you got any gasoline into your sump. Unscrew the oil cap and stick your nose up to it and sniff for gasoline odor. Report what you smell and look for any increase in your oil volume to what it normally looks like. Like we said, this is important so go do it now before you run the bike any at all. Get back to us, OK? (we is hoping he was lucky and his intake valves were closed tight at the point where his engine stopped) On that test where you look for bubbles coming from your float bowl -- you start by putting your dry empty float in the freezer for a half hour, then going instantly into a bowl of pretty warm water for no longer than it takes to look good for bubbles. The cold air inside the float will expand (make positive pressure) and bubble some air out if there is a leak -- doing it this way no water gets into your float assembly as you will have positive pressure. Do it temperature/expansion "backwards" can give you a problem as you can/will be sucking water into the float assembly instead of pushing air out. :( Baking your water filled float at 200 degrees for hours to get the liquid water out of it is kinda an iffy proposition when your float is soldered brass or is made out of plastic ..... neither likes the baking action very much. ------------------------ When you pulled your carb all apart earlier, did you have any issues at all putting it all back together correctly? Even very small details (like where the hook part of the pull down spring for the fuel needle valve goes on the float lifter arm) are very very important for fuel shut off issues. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/13/11 at 20:22:33 Hey, guys... I haven't been riding the bike --AT ALL-- since it's had gas leaking issues. My wife parked it in the garage when that happened, as I mentioned in my initial post, and I changed the oil last night and it wasn't leaking this morning until AFTER my wife took it out for a spin and then it sat for a couple of hours (well, she took it out, was happy, went back out a couple of hours later, smelled and saw the gas, so I don't know how long it took). I did open up the oil fill cap and took a good smell... but it's hard to tell. My garage smells like gas from the gas leak, draining the carb myself, the gas-soaked rags (that are dry but stinky now), the gas can from draining the tank a couple of times now... you get the picture. The oil level is where I left it last night - at the upper fill line. So if gas did get in there, it was very little. Before I fire up the Savage again, I am going to change the oil! Promise! [edit: the battery has been out to give me some room to mess with the carb, so I couldn't crank it if I wanted to!] Okay, so here's where I'm at... took a break for food and family time, and now I'm heading back out to do some tests based on your feedback... 1. take off the carb vent lines and make doubly sure they're not obstructed. I read the link from Boule'tard and want to eliminate the vapor lock hypothesis 2. open the airbox, remove air filter, turn on the petcock to verify that fuel is filling up the float bowl and spilling directly into the airbox. Don't want to take anything for granted 3. [sigh] take off the carb again and do the float test and air bubble test (great idea to stick it in the freezer first) 4. While I didn't have any issues putting the carb back together, I'll pay particularly close attention and triple-check reassembly, paying particular attention to the float valve and o-rings for damage. Like I said, the fuel DOES shut off with the "finger lift" test, but I certainly don't want to eliminate something merely out of overconfidence. 5. When reassembled, do Serowbot's blow test to see if the valve seats 6. ??? 7. Profits! :D |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Oldfeller on 10/13/11 at 21:38:03 From what he says, he had all the potential for a sump dumper, but he didn't actually get unlucky on his intake valves being open. whew !!! that wuz close !!! ::) Ya DO gots a carb float / needle valve / mis-assembly issue of some flavor that I hope you can find and identify before it drives you crazy. Do keep us posted up-to-date and appraised -- we is all rooting for you !! |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/13/11 at 22:33:52 Okay, update: 1. pulled both carb vent lines and blew air through them easy as can be. Definitely not vapor lock 2. Put float bowl back on carb, put petcock in Got my new brake pads today so I decided to put 'em on while I was waiting for the float to go awry and leak gas. Also got fancy pink-coated stainless steel brake line from HEL (this IS my wife's bike, after all) and pink air valve covers for the tires, so I installed those while I was waiting (and while I was already futzing with the brakes). Total waiting time: about 90 minutes. Total gas leak: zero >:( For now, she's in Most likely next step is pulling the carb, gas leak or not, and testing the float and doing a thorough inspection of the float valve. Does the intermittent nature give any clues? Or perhaps that I usually have to run the bike before she'll tinkle gas on the floor? |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/14/11 at 05:37:08 Just replace the needle & seat. If the rubber tip of the needle has a wear mark line around it, you can get intermitent leaks because it won't always seal properly. :( |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by ratz on 10/14/11 at 05:53:23 617A676166772521120 wrote:
Uh,does a Raptor petcock have a "Prime"position"? I thought it was off,on and reserve. The point being to turn it "Off" when the bike isn't running,so if you do have a seeping float valve it won't do what yours is doing. I do agree you need to find out why the float valve is letting gas by. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/14/11 at 07:04:23 Maybe it's "reserve," not "prime." My point was that I wanted to make sure I was getting fuel to the carb and the lack of a leak wasn't just because my gas level was low. I agree that while the bike is off, the "OFF" position on the Raptor will (and does) keep this from happening. But what if it happens at a long stop light and the bike stalls and my wife is 30 miles away from home? "OFF" is a band-aid, not a cure. I'm going to spend some time today looking for a new needle/o-ring. If I'm going to take the carb apart anyway, if it's not highway robbery, I may as well swap out the needle and o-ring while I'm in there just so I KNOW that's not the issue. Are there kits for this? Anyone have a link handy? OEM is fine - this one lasted 10 years and 17,800 miles before it went out on me. It will take a looooong time for my wife to put that many miles on it. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/14/11 at 08:27:39 Answered my own question... found a carb repair kit with the float bowl gasket, float valve and associated o-rings on Amazon for $12. Ordered one and I guess I'm waiting 3-5 days. I'll check back in after the part arrives. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Fish on 10/14/11 at 16:28:20 667D606661702226150 wrote:
My Savage is also a 2001. What did you do to order your brake line? I looked on their site and the only line they had was for 86-98 model years. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by Grand Strand on 10/14/11 at 17:09:45 Ok my two cents worth on two things. First be aware that there is an o-ring on the brass seat for the needle valve. When you pull the seat to clean it up be careful about inspection and reassembly. Someone on the site IDK who has mentioned that you can check the float by slipping a clear tube over the drain valve while it is open, holding it up above the top of the carb. Watch the fluid level to see exactly where the fuel level is. It should be level with the top of the bowl. Level with the gasket. Cheers [ch61514] [smiley=lolk.gif](Lots - o - Luck!) [smiley=smiley.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/14/11 at 21:33:09 re:Fish - I went to the HEL website and they didn't have 2001 listed, just like you said. For some reason, a bunch of people and sites think Suzuki stopped making this bike from around 99-03. As we know, they sure as heck didn't! Anyway, I emailed HEL and asked if the part for the '87 - '98 LS650 would work for a 2001, they replied saying they believed it would, so I ordered the HBF7408 and installed it yesterday. Installed fine, but, obviously, won't be able to test for real until I can get the bike running. Fit well, had the rubber parts for the frame clip things, screwed together right, was the right length, not leaking... all systems go. They have lots of colors available, which is pretty cool. I expect the brakes to be MUCH better (new pads, new stainless line, new fluid). UPDATE: fuel wasn't leaking last night. Left it in RES all night and wasn't leaking in the morning. Came home from work around 5pm and gas was leaking again. Before I turned off the petcock, I already had the airbox open and the air filter out. There was a slow waterfall of gas overflowing from the air intake down the front (inner) wall of the airbox and out of the airbox vent, onto the concrete floor. I don't need to do the clear PVC tube level check... I think this pretty much tells me what I need to know. I have some clear PVC but it was actually too large to fit the carb drain line or I would have done this yesterday - this IS a good idea, just didn't have the stuff to do it. Like I said earlier, the carb rebuild kit has been ordered. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by ratz on 10/15/11 at 10:21:01 415A474146570501320 wrote:
Oh yeah,I know it's NOT a cure,like I said I agree you need to find the float valve problem. I know I wouldn't let my wife be in that position either!(I like sleeping INSIDE the house! ;)) |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/23/11 at 20:47:00 **UPDATE** Got the carb kit Friday afternoon, couldn't get to it until today. Took the carb apart, and I'd love to throttle the guy that last took this thing apart because EVERY screw was way way overtorqued. >:( Not cool, man. Anyway, took the carb apart and took out the float valve.
Put the battery on the charger (just in case), drained the oil (just in case gas got in there - new oil is cheaper than a new engine), put everything back together, finally got the brake fluid drained and put back together (the HEL kit for the earlier years worked great on the '01), filled the oil, got the seat back on and took 'er out for a ride! Popping quite a bit on decel, but that's pretty normal for this bike. I haven't done a couple of the mods for the popping on decel, but as long as she runs and doesn't leak gas, I'm good. After a couple of days of no more oil leaks out of the airbox, I'm going to plug the airbox drain. Don't see a reason why I should let air bypass the air filter and the manual says it's plugged. I bet the previous owner knew about this issue and that's why he had the plug out. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by steve73 on 10/28/11 at 10:15:53 One last update - it's been 5 days since I finished doing everything to the bike. Still no more gas leaks - yeah! Wife rode it to work and back (about 25 miles each way) and it was fine. She was also astonished at how much more power it had after the Dynojet kit and the fixed carb and the fuel/air mix adjusted properly. Also, she was very happy with the brakes compared to before - much firmer after the new pads/stainless line/fluid change. Only 3 things left to do - see what I can do to minimize the backfiring on decel, fix the oil plug leak (not sure if I can do this without taking the entire engine off the bike), and give her a paint job befitting the rider (it's black now; wife would like white with pink accents/highlights). Thanks for the help, everyone. This forum is really great. |
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Title: Re: Gas leak from airbox vent Post by paul k on 05/13/21 at 18:44:03 Found the culprit, needle valve seat oring was leaking fuel around it. Replaced o-ring, no more fuel in the air box! Item 21 in diagram |
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