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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1316185281 Message started by kingart3 on 09/16/11 at 08:01:21 |
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Title: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by kingart3 on 09/16/11 at 08:01:21 Hello, I am having a problem with my 2009 S40. We have been going throught the rainy season in Florida and so it has been sitting in the garage and getting run about once every two weeks. Recently I took it on a short trip and it cut off twice, both times when I cut the throttle to idle to shift. I thought it was low on gas and filled it up from a jug I had in my shed for the lawnmower. The next day, I took it 8 miles to work and 8 miles back plus out to lunch and it ran perfectly. Later that evening, I took it on a short hop (2 miles). It cut off twice on the way there and 5 or 6 times on the way back. I had to hold the throttle partially open at all times. When it cut off it was hard to restart and reeked of gas as if flooded. Not surprising since I had to crank it a lot to get it to fire up again. At first I was afraid I had filled it with old gasoline or gas that might be dirty and had clogged the petcock or fuel filter. This morning I opened the tank and looked in with a flashlight and didn't see anything obvious. I dipped my finger in and the gasoline smells like gasoline, so I fired it up and let it idle. Of course it ran perfectly. I took it around the block a few times and no problems. I am wondering if anyone might have any hints or suggestions? I was going to take it to the shop but now there are no symptoms. I am wondering if something might have been sticking in the caburetor. Perhaps I should buy some carb cleaner and pour it in the tank? Any ideas? Thanks, Hal |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by drums1 on 09/16/11 at 08:11:40 Seafoam. 1 ounce per tankful. Can be had at Wallymart or most auto parts stores. Make sure there are no leaks in vacuum line to petcock. Also, you might want to search for Serowbot's petcock test, to make sure it is working right. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Fish on 09/16/11 at 09:03:44 6361666F697A7C3B080 wrote:
Hey Hal. About 6 weeks ago I was having THE EXACT SAME issues you're describing. Some days going to work (only 2.5 miles each way) the bike would run great. Others it would die out if I didn't give it throttle while downshifting and coming to a stop. On this website you'll hear that our Savages have a notorious petock issue. Here is how to test for that issue: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429 I did Serowbot's test. I sucked on the vacuum line and I it held suction. I plugged the vacuum line with a twig (replaced today with a golf tee) and bought a nipple from PepBoys to cap off the spot where the line connects onto the carb. After bypassing the vacuum line I have not had any fuel starvation issues at all. My new Raptor petcock will arrive Monday :) You can try replacing that vacuum line. I haven't done that. I've just bypassed it and turned my petcock into a manually operated version. This should fix you right up. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by kingart3 on 09/16/11 at 10:40:09 Yes I have heard about the petcock issue. I will definitely test that. I'll also pour some seafoam in the tank, since it can't hurt. Thanks for the suggestions, I will get on it this weekend. Appreciate the help, -Hal |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/16/11 at 18:51:27 Make sure the idle is high enough, |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Boofer on 09/16/11 at 20:38:38 6260676E687B7D3A090 wrote:
I think Seafoam is used at 2oz per gal. I use a medicine cup from some cough syrup for a handy measure. Of course this cup is dedicated to Seafoam only. ;) |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Routy on 09/16/11 at 22:48:39 If the petcock is at fault, it will starve for fuel at hi speed first of all. A problen at low speed when coming back to idle is not a petcock,....or even a vacuum line problem,.......IMO (for Bot & Boof) You are looking at an internal carb problem, very possibly caused from not haveing a fuel filter. Seafoam may or may not help. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Fish on 09/17/11 at 05:29:57 5D5248534F495A58505E493B0 wrote:
I was having the exact same problem he is on and off for a week. I never had any high speed fuel starvation, only intermittent low rpm fuel issues. My idle was high enough, I had to put it waay too high for the bike to not try and cut out when the rpms dropped down for shifting or idling. I bypassed the vacuum and have never had that issue again. Didn't use any Seafoam, didn't take apart my carb. *shrugs* Just my own personal experience with my bike showing the same issues his is. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Routy on 09/18/11 at 07:39:29 547B617A120 wrote:
I was having the exact same problem he is on and off for a week. I never had any high speed fuel starvation, only intermittent low rpm fuel issues. My idle was high enough, I had to put it waay too high for the bike to not try and cut out when the rpms dropped down for shifting or idling. I bypassed the vacuum and have never had that issue again. Didn't use any Seafoam, didn't take apart my carb. *shrugs* Just my own personal experience with my bike showing the same issues his is. [/quote] Yes, I read your post above. Doesn't change the fact that if we are talking fuel starvinization,:) if the engine is getting enough fuel for hi speed and WOT running, it is for sure getting way more than enough fuel for slow speed running,.....not hard to figure that one out, huh ? So then are we talking about a flooding problem ?? caused by the petcock ??? Ruptured diaphram ?? on a '09 bike ??? |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 09:07:33 Routy, You are ignoring the "variable speed" nature of the vac petcock. When input suction is low, fuel flow is low too. The vac petcock isn't on/off at all, it reacts in a sliding scale from zero to full fuel flow according to the vacuum level it sees. There is nothing to say the vac petcock's rate of delivery just off idle to mid range is enough to keep the engine happy. (probably depends on the diaghragm condition, air filter type, etc) I would say that when the slide starts moving up, the needle comes into play and the main jet kicks in, the carburetor probably uses a ramp up in fuel used that isn't matched by any big increase in vacuum level (or big increase in the vac petcock's fuel delivery to the bowl). The slide just moved up because you got to the venturi point where the slide starts moving up and the main jet begins to ramp up its bigger fuel use at whatever that general input vacuum level/fuel delivery that happens to be. Remember, there isn't any connection between vac petcock diaphragm and what it needs to raise up fully (certainly as it get older anyway) and the main slide diagphragm and what it needs to move the needle up (and ramp up the carb's fuel consumption). Enough of this out of sync and you get fuel starvation ... BTW, expecting a newbie to tell you anything other than what he personally sees or knows about his one personal bike is probably futile -- and you should have rigged youself up a vac petcock to do the suction tests yourself by now so you would know this variable reaction stuff first hand already. The good thing about the Raptor is that it is always on "full flow" and we know that full Raptor flow is very large compared to a vac petcock's total maximum possible flow through the diagphragm valve in the full open (full vacuum) position. That's why wickers and high HP people like the Raptor a lot. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/11 at 09:44:14 On the stock petcock, the vacuum inlet has a damper valve to even out the vac pulses. I yanked mine out cause it was gummy (88). Now get yourself a big bucket and put it under the outlet of the petcock so you can see the pulses, and how far they shoot out. With a full bowl you should be able to run a minute or 2. Now light it up :o I mean start it and watch the gas shoot out. OF, you probably have your ol' petcock tied to an anchor somewhere. pull it out and compare the streams. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 09:58:11 A gummy intake vacuum damper valve (an entire new subsystem of the vac petcock that needs maintenance) -- if it were gummy what would that do to the "total response curve" of delivering fuel? Would it decrease it? :-? ============= Seriously, the more I learn about the vac petcock the more ways it shows that it can possibly not do what you want it to do when you need it to be doing it. Now we need to be factoring intake vacuum pulse frequency and vacuum pulse strength vs fuel valve opening distance and duration just to get to fuel flow delivered .... then it becomes fuel delivered vs fuel required by the bowl to get to potential leaning/stalling. And it can happen at any point in the rolling open of the throttle, buffered only by the fuel sitting in the bowl at the time it starts to take place. Please, tell me you are pulling my leg (pretty please .....) I turned my old vac petcock into a little vac actuated musical instrument that sits on my desk and I play a new tune on it every time I go and learn something new about that vacsucker petcock. Now I need to go train me a woodpecker to suck on it at different RPM pulse ranges so I can compare what makes it out of the fuel tap according to how hard I squeeze the woodpecker's balls and how fast he inhales between screams as he speeds up and up and up ..... :-/ And now, now you are gonna make me take that vacsucker all apart looking for this new valve thingie that you gummied up and then removed as part of your ongoing vac petcock improvement program. You is cruel, you is .... all this work for getting new additional ongoing problems and a constant steam of troubles. All I would make you do is bolt up a simple 2 screw manual petcock assembly you already know how to change out, then you wouldn't ever have to do anything except turn it on (assuming you wanted to keep turning it on and off that is -- most of us don't bother). No more problems, lots of gas whenever you needed it ..... No more F-whatevers sneaking up behind you and trying to mate with your motorcycle ..... :-/ :-/ :-/ That was a female Ford truck, right? :o :o :o |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Serowbot on 09/18/11 at 10:21:23 7C6F7879666B6D6F643B0A0 wrote:
Shoot out?... really?... The fuel is not propelled by vacuum,... it is merely allowed to gravity flow when unblocked by a vacuum actuated stopper...... (I point his out, because many noobies will think that the vacuum somehow propels the fuel)... |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 10:42:40 Aww, cut him a break -- he's on up on his meds right now and he's feeling OK. Later on this afternoon when his meds wear off, then you can talk sense to him (but he'll be too grumpy to talk back to you). We'll just try to keep him entertained and such during his convalescence. If it means sacrificing a male woodpecker or two during testing, that's OK -- just don't go be telling the Feds about it. They will want to know why their woodpecker's cockaded is all red .... >:( They consider that a restricted activity -- according to their signs anyway. http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2008/05/15/15659/size0-army.mil-2008-05-23-144532.jpg |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/11 at 10:45:56 3F293E233B2E23384C0 wrote:
awe come on bot... you've never knocked the stopper off the bottom of a rain barrel to see the water shoot out a couple of feet or more? The distance it shoots out is proportional to the level above the leak. science... weird science... he baffled them with science... |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/11 at 10:54:25 5D4B5C41594C415A2E0 wrote:
hmmmm... now there's an idea. a couple of reed valves and we could convert it to a vacuum operated fuel pump. naw, would require a pressure regulator, more sh!t to fail or wonder if it's working. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 11:21:08 There ya go ... take about two more of them little pills and it will really all start to make sense to you. Simple don't fail -- it ain't got all the parts for it. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/11 at 11:26:51 50737B797A73737A6D1F0 wrote:
so I got 2 more to catch up to you? (only been taken cold meds so far) |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 12:10:50 No, I'm like this naturally ... I'm in a good mood because tomorrow I leave for the mountains for a whole week of screwing around with MMRanch, Bigzuk and Midnight up where the air is thin and there are no speed limits. Repeat the mind enhancing mantra after me .... "Simple don't fail Simple don't fail Simple simply ain't got the parts for it Simple don't fail" etc etc etc until inner peace and understanding fills your mind and spirit (or your brain drops out yer nose, whichever comes first ...) |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/11 at 13:08:57 Im simple,, & I fail, often & spectacularly.. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/11 at 13:13:11 ah ha! simple be the user if he could maintain his bike so that the float valve never failed... and that he could just remember to turn off the petcock every time he got off the bike... we would a few less fire dept. :o |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Oldfeller on 09/18/11 at 13:40:37 oh, beware the counter mantra of death .... complex things screw up .... complex things screw up .... when complex screws up you get screwed up .... complex things screw up .... this applies to petcorks too, btw (interesting that the one burning bike example that people want to point to was a burned up Honda CX500 which has a vac petcork on it stock) (also interesting that the only Savages so far that ever have had loose gas in the airbox and sump were ones equipped with a vac petcock on them -- I'm jest glad there was no spark nearby to ignite the fumes) complex things screw up .... complex things screw up .... when complex screws up you get screwed up .... complex things screw up .... take a deep cleansing breath, let the evil badness flow out of you ommmmmmm ommmmmmmm simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail simple don't fail |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Fish on 09/18/11 at 18:56:42 404F554E525447454D4354260 wrote:
Yes, we are talking about starvation. But yeah, I skipped over the 2009 part. I just related to his plight with my 2001 at 6,500miles because it was too similar. I was just relating with my own anecdotal experience. I don't have 1/50th the experience of you guys though. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Boofer on 09/18/11 at 19:04:29 Fish, my petcock failed at idle also but more at high speed, especially if running through the gears fast. It hasn't had any problems since I installed my new petcock. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Fish on 09/18/11 at 19:33:31 Mine was odd *shrugs* I ride my bike hard as hell and never had any stumbling at high speed that week I was having issues. Just the low rpm troubles. I get my Raptor tomorrow :) |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/11 at 22:55:55 I think we all secretly hope to be Raptored. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by Fish on 09/19/11 at 07:17:59 I've seen Jurrasic Park. I for one, do not want to be Raptored. |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/19/11 at 10:11:44 OUCH! I forgot about that kinda Raptored, |
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Title: Re: Bike Cutting Off, Hard to Restart Post by kingart3 on 10/06/11 at 18:35:34 Hello, I just wanted to let you all know I poured a couple of ounces of Sea Foam into the tank. I've driven the bike on four trips since totally about 80 miles and is been fine. I've bookmarked the petcock test in case I get any more surprises. Thanks for the help and advice, Hal |
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