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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Stuck Petcock /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1315444624 Message started by ziggy on 09/07/11 at 18:17:04 |
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Title: Stuck Petcock Post by ziggy on 09/07/11 at 18:17:04 Wife needed to switch to reserve last time out and couldnt move it so she had to pull over.I'm riding lead on my bike and knew something was wrong when she didnt come out of the s turn so i turned around and she told me she couldnt turn the petcock thingy.So like a good husband i rolled my eyes shook my head and said to her you just turn it .She said to me you turn it so i said no problem until i muttoned onto it and couldn't budge it.Now this is a brand new S40 2010 with 500 miles on it.I had to get the pliers out of my bike to turn it but now it seems a little better and i can actually turn it with my fingers.Is this because the bike is a year old and never got turned or are they known for sticking? |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Serowbot on 09/07/11 at 18:41:04 You need to eat more red meat... ;D... Naw,.. the stock mechanism is famous for getting sticky, if you don't turn it very often... ... on the good side, it'll wear out faster if you do... That's not a real good side... but it's the only one it's got... :-?... They are also famous for going bad... many people switch to a petcock off of a manual Yamaha 660 Raptor...one third the cost, and smoother mechanism... |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by lukeduck on 09/07/11 at 18:47:27 Don't know if our petcocks freeze-up any more than others. Have never had the problem. To prevent the problem "exercise" the petcock regularly. My method-every 2-3 tanks of gas-leave gas station-set petcock to prime-after 5-10 mins. set to reserve-run 15-20 miles-back to run. The petcock is exercised and you used gas from the bottom of the tank-prevents crud from collecting. That's this lazy old fr##ts method. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by ziggy on 09/07/11 at 19:15:55 I'm going to have to switch the petcock valve to reserve more often for sure |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/11 at 20:04:46 Ziggy, How are you gonna explain to her you left a pre-failure practically brand new stock vac petcock installed on her brand new bike knowing durn well the dead on the roadside heartaches you were leaving her potentially signed up for? (in 5 to seven years from now, anyway) :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ "Darling, you weren't worth the $24 spent or the 40 minutes of time it would have taken me to get rid of that ill-turning unreliable vac sucker that just left you stranded in traffic (although I knew all about it 5 to seven years ahead of time and I even got teased a bit on the list for having left it on your bike and thus proving to the world I had no forethought and I didn't really love you very much at all)." ;) Now Routy and Verslagen can justifiably give me some shite for unjustified "vac petcock scare mongering" -- but if it comes true in 5 to seven years you'll remember this clearly now won't you? |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Routy on 09/07/11 at 21:45:06 6B78767668110 wrote:
That will probably cure the problem. As you have noticed, petcock paranoia has set in for several of the oletimers here. They will blame everything but the kitchen sink on to the vacuum operated petcock, when in reality they seldom give a problem in their 10-20 yr lifespan. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Serowbot on 09/07/11 at 22:31:54 66697368747261636B6572000 wrote:
Wisdom from a guy with with a bike,... how old, Routy?... :-?... Routy... you can learn from the experience of others,... or learn from your own.... Either way,... You learn... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/08/11 at 00:55:55 you can learn from the experience of others,... or learn from your own.... Either way,... You learn... Wink... Ive learned that.. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 05:22:50 Routy, now that you have actually had a real chance (carefully manufactured) to chide me for a real case of petcock paranoia, do you feel any better? Ziggy gets the point, and the next time the vac sucker does his wife dirty (years from now) he will remember -- and he'll keep his mouth carefully shut (like any smart husband does) and order her a Raptor real quick-like, mainly because he really does love her. Of course Routy, you know that the end game on your vac sucker is coming for you soon enough, question is are you gonna be honest about it (like Verslagen has been/will be) or are you like a smart husband and you'll just keep your mouth shut about it? ;) |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by txsizzler on 09/08/11 at 06:10:07 I learned real quick. No fun having the bike basically shut down on you at 70 mph on the interstate in the middle lane at 6pm traffic. Did it to me 4 times before I finally did the petcock test. I ordered the Raptor 660 petcock the very next day. That's why I made a How-To video in the tech section for us noobs. It's unfortunate Suzuki refuses to acknowledge this, along with the cam chain tensioner as a problem/malfunction on their bikes. It's been this way since the first Savage rolled off the assembly line in the 1980s. I just hope these issues don't hurt or end up leaving too many folks stranded. Ian |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 06:19:05 Ian. Justin and I can cast our minds back to all the folks with "mysterious carb / jetting problems" and all the repeated "pull it and clean the screens" and all the "seem to have lost compression at speed" and all the "repeated carb tear down repairs" type thingies we have read over the years and we wonder -- we really do -- how many were really just petcock episodes that were never correctly identified. Not all of them were, but some were .... And now that the petcock goes front and center first thing, many ongoing issues have shown themselves to be vac petcock's throwing up symptoms that were very like carb issues, jetting issues, etc. etc. Like the old rock song says "We won't be fooled again ....." |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Routy on 09/08/11 at 06:52:18 Well, I'll spell it out for you oldtimers,......OP will know more about it also,..... We were speaking of the Petcock "itself". I haven't seen any evidence of the petcock "itself" giving any problem (like diaphram rupture) in less than a 10 yr old bike,....and I'll even go 15 yrs on that now,.....and not to say that it couldn't happen. No matter what you guys try to get new members to believe, the truth is,.....most all times that a "hi speed" lack of fuel problem comes up, it is a lack of vacuum supplied to the petcock, whether it be a bad vacuum hose, clamps, or a lack of vacuum supplied by the engine itself. And of course,.......doing away w/ an automated saftey device,.......changing to a manual shut off style petcock, is going to eliminate any of those potential problems that very likely will not come in the first 5-10 yrs. Why don't you guys admit that when a carb is flooding,.....fuel running out the air intake, that 99% of the time it is the float valve, not the petcock ??! The problem here is that w/ the "petcock paranoia" you guys got going here, is that every little fuel problem that come up gets blamed on to the petcock, and causes an unnecessary change out that seldom fixes the problem. It just seems like you guys would be smart enough to know that if the petcock was even 1/4 the problem that you guys pretend it to be, it would have been replaced by Suzy many.....20+ ?? yrs ago. The newbys can believe what they want to, but they deserve to know the truth......from reading 3 years of this forum,....and other research also does not support what is posted here. Me, I'm headed fishing ! |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Boule’tard on 09/08/11 at 08:31:08 Poor Routy's got Raptor Petcock Paranoia Paranoia (RPPP) :P Aaah, a fishing trip sounds perfect, just what the Dr. ordered. Ziggy, you'll find that any manual petcock (Raptor, Pingel, IMS, whatever) will stay smoother than the vac petcock, mainly because they get exercise. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 08:31:20 Routy, I will completely agree that most of the petcock issues cluster around low vacuum levels, which can occur on all Savages as they go full open throttle and approach higher speeds. I will also freely admit that all the modders and wickers (myself included) have aggravated these low vacuum issues by taking out the stock (restrictive) Suzuki air filter. We are also asking for more gas volume at all speeds to feed our more powerful engines (and that is at these reduced intake restriction removed vacuum levels). I completely agree that the stock vac petcock offers a variable gas flow that is in proportion to the amount of suction that the vac line sees (and I completely agree that the vac line is the first failure item to go too). I will also freely admit that the putt putt around moderately and leave the bike completely stock crowd may never have an issue with the stock vac petcock until they get a whole lot of years on it and the diaphragm stiffens on them. Until then, the putt putt boys may never exceed the variable gas flow the petcock will provide. I don't debate the splitting diaphragm thing as I have never had one go on me personally -- I'll leave that one for Serobot and Verslagen and the boys who have had one go dump fuel down the vac tube into the airbox and sump. Give you a clue though, Verslagen thinks fuel washing down the cylinder walls is a engine damage mode that he is willing to discuss as a serious possible failure mode .... So, you got a stock vac petcock that cannot operate on the intake vacuum levels that exist on mebbe half the bikes on the list? And vac suction line rubber tubes that fail pretty wide spread in the 5-7 year time frame? You see, it really doesn't matter to me about the semantics about whether it is a "vacuum level problem" or "vacuum petcock problem" -- it is still a stinkin' problem that needs addressing. Since you want to address it as a "vacuum level issue" then what solution do you propose to increase our vacuum levels at high speeds? :D Routy, I am soooooo much more fun to play with than Bill is with his Klotz and his Seafoam -- I can type really long sentences and I actually try to respond to what you say. (what you say makes good sense BTW and prompts better thinking on my part on the issues at hand). Catch you a nice fish or two for me, and drink you a couple of nice cold beers while you are out there on the lake. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by bill67 on 09/08/11 at 08:42:41 My Suzuki 650 GR went 22 years 18 of those years stored,driven 8 miles once a year,Never had to replace petcock or a hose or change the brake fluid,had 28000 miles on it when I sold it.The Petcock looked just like the S40 petcock. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 08:51:16 Putt putt putt putt putt putt putt putt putt (wait 18 years) putt putt putt putt putt putt putt putt putt putt ...... :D |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/11 at 08:55:31 5271797B787171786F1D0 wrote:
Gas washing down the cylinder lubricants is a serious issue, but my experience comes from leaving the choke on (1st knotch) and riding to work (25 miles at freeway speed) not as the PP crowd will have you believe. I did have 1 petcock start to leak, or may have start to leak (1 drop in the vac line and it was replaced) I believe it was the '88 petcock. This was repaired with the kit that I found. I've pulled out the internal screen and inserted an aluminum tube for reserve and run a fuel filter. I also have a '96 which never worked properly when I got it (05) anyway and replaced it with an '02 petcock. Always needed to run in reserve. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 09:08:00 And Verslagen actually runs a descreened (modified) stock vac petcock on his new increased displacement high compression engine too -- so he exhibits his faith in the basic vac petcock design system in a meaningful fashion, by putting his new built hot-rod engine at total risk according to what he currently believes to be true. Now if Routy is right and it is a "low vacuum level issue" -- would Verslagen possibly be at any risk asking for increased gas volume delivery to feed his new hot rod engine while running a cone air filter system (no stock filter intake restriction)? hmmmmmmmm ....... :-? mebbe, jest a little ?? Me, I think Verslagen has purposefully removed the failure modes he was initially concerned with the vac petcock system. One by one he took them out .... He removed the screen (which varnishes up over time) and he rebuilt the diaphragm (which gets old and stiff and eventually splits) and he runs a better grade of vac line which he periodically replaces to make sure he doesn't lose his suction to any silly vac tube leak. And now, he just keeps a careful watch on things while he is winging it down the freeway at 85 mph. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Serowbot on 09/08/11 at 10:06:48 My 97' leaked viciously when I bought it in '06... before I found this site... Took me ages to figure it out on my own... ... an 04' I bought in 09' had a leaky one too... ... another one I bought, an '01 I think, had chewed up that ridiculous spring under the knob and was impossible to turn... it was stuck in the prime position... I've put about 6 Raptors in Savages, including mine, Jerry's, and former member NickA's... Can't remember how many I've bought and sold in total, (probably 8 or 10),... and four had bad petcocks... That's why the PO sold them, because they, or their mechanic, couldn't figure it out...... Them's bad odds... :-?... Google "vacuum petcock"... and you'll find a buttload of problems in many models of bike.... It's not unique to the Savage, or Suzuki... It is unique to the vacuum operation... I don't have to convince anyone that they go bad... new members have been coming here for years hunting for the solution to this baffling problem... The problem is,.. so many of them have boogered up other things on their bikes while trying to fix it, before they figured it out... You can do a lot of carb damage trying to fix a leaky petcock... I'm trying to save them from that... Always test your petcock, first... ;) How to check your petcock,... (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1) |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by txsizzler on 09/08/11 at 10:52:21 786E79647C69647F0B0 wrote:
Great write-up! That is the guide I used when checking my petcock. Sure enough, it was the culprit, and ordered my Raptor the next day. Getting back to a statment Routy made, about if this was a problem, that Suzy would have fixed it a long time ago, if that were the case, and Suzuki was on top of these things, would they not also have addressed the VERY common Cam-Chain tensioner problem? The way I see it, most manufacturers will not fix a problem, even if they are in full knowledge of it, until a LOT of publicity about the issue comes in play. Typically, it takes tragedy to make these changes occur. Unfortunate, but true. Ian |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/11 at 10:57:16 This may be a problem they aren't allowed to fix. Serow, have you noticed where the premature failures mostly occur? Is it a case of severe temperatures? |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by bill67 on 09/08/11 at 10:58:21 Sea Foam in your gas helps your petcock work easier. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by bill67 on 09/08/11 at 11:03:26 Sea Foam keeps the screen from tarnishing. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Serowbot on 09/08/11 at 11:15:57 495A4D4C535E585A510E3F0 wrote:
Not really... Exposed rubber (vac line)... drys out faster in heat, but the diaphragm is enclosed... ...maybe different regional fuel additives have some effect... but no unusual wear on carb gaskets here.... ...most of the bikes I've personally dealt with were neglected, so perhaps old lacquered gas stiffens the rubber and causes rupture, but I suspect they sat because of the running problems... so, not likely... No idea really... :-?... My personal experience is a higher than average failure rate, but,... I buy bikes that have been sidelined and neglected, to fix them back up... so problems come with the deal... It is most often the petcock or plugged up carb that puts them there... (next most often,... is intermittent contacts on kickstand/clutch cutout switches or connectors)... people think their ignition is dying and sell the bike... |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/11 at 15:03:00 You have to wonder on the effects of 10% alcohol on the rubber compounds used in the petcock and the carb for those earlier bikes, because YOU KNOW DURN WELL they were never intended to sit in a bath of 10% alcohol constantly all the time like they do now. Alcohol can cause swelling in some rubbers, which might help explain the tough to turn petcocks. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/11 at 15:25:27 16353D3F3C35353C2B590 wrote:
On the part that turns, there's no rubber. It's a hard plastic. The problem is that it's on a taper. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/11 at 15:28:57 1A3931333039393027550 wrote:
Who? me? never ;D |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by ziggy on 09/09/11 at 16:57:00 Thanks for all your responses.So besides petcocks and cam chain tensioner she bought a good bike. Shes happy and loves the new bike so ill spend a lot of time reading info on this forum this winter when we have 3' of snow and cant ride but right now the sun is shining and the riding is good. Thanks Ziggy |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by txsizzler on 09/09/11 at 17:01:21 Really, the Savage/S40 bikes are nearly bulletproof, minus the petcock/cam chain tensioner issues. Excellent for both the beginner or the experienced, and just plain fun to ride! Light weight, nimble, easy to work on, very little in the way of overhead costs, cheaply insured, gas misers, are all words that partly describe this great bike. She should be happy with it for a long, long time! Ian |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by built2last66 on 09/10/11 at 01:16:58 don't forget to change the O-ring when you change the oil... according to the manual. i thought i'd just add something to this topic. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Routy on 09/10/11 at 07:24:54 6374686D75336D6072753737010 wrote:
Are you talking about the one almost everyone agrees never needs replaced ? |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Routy on 09/10/11 at 08:03:24 quote: Since you want to address it as a "vacuum level issue" then what solution do you propose to increase our vacuum levels at high speeds? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For you hot rodders and hackers, install a vacuum pump ! For the rest of us that left our bikes mostly stock, as they were intended to be by the OEM, there very likely IS NO PROBLEM. If it really was a problem for the stock cruiser, don't you think Suzy would be swamped w/ warranty problems,.....so much so that they would be forced to do something different. And in the eyes of the OEM, how long do you suppose they guarantee that you can hold WOT for ? I have always said I personally know of 3 stockers.....incl mine, that have no trouble running up to 90 mph on a good day w/o starving for fuel. Will they eventually starve for fuel if they are abusively held there for 5 whole minutes trying for another mph ?? I don't know,...neither do they,....and neither does Suzuki......possibly,.....neither is it designed to do that, or warranteed to do that. Now, let me ask,...how much more fuel percentage wise runs thru a 155 main jet, than a 145 main jet? Do you think it may starve for fuel somewhat sooner because it is using somewhat more fuel thru that bigger main jet ? But then that only makes sense,.....so not sure on that one. ::) And if you really think that the OEM filter is really restrictive, (I don't) how much vacuum is lost there (I know you already acknowledged that) So how'd I do,.....a little more food for thought ? I don't have a problem, but for you OF, I promise you will be the first to know when I do. ;) |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Oldfeller on 09/10/11 at 11:10:35 I gots lots of people telling me about their problems, I gots lots of problems "done gone away" once Raptorized. Verslagen is aware You are aware Ain't no mystery to it any more. And yes, take a stock air filter (new clean one preferably) and try to suck some air through it with your lips -- there is some resistance you can feel even when brand new and clean. Some taste, too -- yuck When you go to a low resistance air filter, you decrease the intake tract suction level accordingly. Fuel amount when you become a real engine modding wicker can change from high 50's mph to high 30's for mpg, which is a significant enough change but can be explained logically as "the extra power had to come from somewhere, so you had to burn more gas to make that extra power". Plus, high HP engines aren't always noted for highly gas efficient usage. Jetting alone isn't the entire story to high performance -- for example I still use the stock jets in my carburetor but I just use a lot more RPMs to make a lot more HP since I have a cam that allows that to happen now. Routy, you putt putt around on a stock bike (that's fine, BTW). Verslagen has a carefully custom modded vac petcock on a high performance engine (that's fine too). Verslagen is likely gonna bite the bullet again before you do (again, that is -- he has already done bit the bullet and done rebuilds, etc already) Now, could all of these fine normal bike engine people who have Raptorized have FIXED their vac petcocks? Yup, Verslagen can even teach you how to fix it to flow enough gas even after you run a cone air filter and you lower your intake suction levels. He knows how to do it. But why would you bother to do all that and still have to watch it all the time for signs of impending screw up? A Raptorization is a bit like having your tonsils or your appendix or your wisdom teeth removed. You CAN wait until you have acute appendicitis and you are in the hospital knocking on death's door before you do anything. Or you can get it removed at the first tell tale signs of trouble .... ;) Vac sucker is the same thing, once it starts to show itself -- pluck it out. |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by Serowbot on 09/10/11 at 12:31:23 There is the (correct) assumption by some,... that factory specialists and engineers know more than we do about building a bike,... and if, in their wisdom, they made it this way, it must be right... Like I said,.. that is correct... ... but,... these engineers are not creating the best bike they can... they are making a bike that will come in at a certain price point, for a customer that they assume will be of a specific type... The Savage is a bike designed for an entry level rider that wants to look like he/she's on a "real bike, but not pay a lot... Turns out,... average Savage owners aren't that at all... They tend to be fairly experienced riders that want a light, simple machine they can work on themselves... A little more performance, and better reliability, and a more distinctive look and character... That's what this site runs on... not people that don't want to touch their bikes... We be tinkerers... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Stuck Petcock Post by ziggy on 09/10/11 at 15:04:01 I'll change the o ring when i change the oil but thanks for the reminder. |
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