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Message started by genejohnson on 09/06/11 at 14:58:24

Title: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/06/11 at 14:58:24

Got insurance and tags today. Was ready to ride. Gel battery was dead from sitting so long so tried to hot shot it. It will run as long as the jumper cables are hooked up but stops running when you remove them. It was running fine a couple of weeks ago. Could I have shorted out something with the jumper cables? Where and how should I start to find the trouble?

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/11 at 15:06:20

Start simple, take a volt ohm meter and check the battery for resting voltage. If less than 12 volts after resting overnight on the bench after being fully slow charged then look no further until you have a new battery in place.

Or, carry it to Advanced Auto and get the battery stress tested. Free, if they think you might buy a battery from them. Slow charge it first, of course.

The fact your bike runs while attached to a good battery (the big one) and dies instantly when you unhook it mebbe might indicate you have a internally shorted or "totally dead" motorcycle battery.

We are not familiar with folks killing anything about the bike if they jump start it. Jump starts happen all the time.

Your term "hot shot" is unfamiliar -- you mean jump starting with a car battery and jumper cables, right?

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/06/11 at 15:11:07

Right oldfeller, Could shorting the cables fry a Reg/Rect Stator?

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/11 at 15:29:17

Shorting which cables? How, exactly? Try telling us exactly what you did and you might get a more exact answer.

-------------------------------

Your stator to reg/rec condition isn't going to make your bike die when you unhook the jumper cables .....

.... unless you were trying to jump start a TOTALLY DEAD COMPLETELY UNCHARGED BATTERY in which case the behavior is perfectly normal. Dead doesn't jump back to life -- it requires slow coaxing like 12-24 hours on a half amp charger. Passing a BIG jump start voltage and current through a totally dead battery is like using it like a chunk of copper wire, the current just flows through it not changing anything very much.

------------------------------

What kind of bike battery charger do you own?

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/06/11 at 15:38:47

Wouldn"t it keep running off the alternator? I was refering to shorting the hot lead of the jumper cables to ground/frame. My thought was if the Reg/Rect was fried maybe this was the reason the alternator wasnt keeping it running.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Routy on 09/06/11 at 16:22:53

I too would think it would run off the nator, even w/o a battery, but I don't know. But you could check the charging voltage while it is running off the jumpers,......it should show a charging voltage of 13+ volts, 14+ if the batteries were full charged.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/06/11 at 17:41:35

Does the alternator have to have voltage from the battery to operate? I think it is called excited field? I don't have any way of checking anything till tomorrow. Just trying to think of all the possibilities.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/11 at 17:43:02

permanent magnet, so no it doesn't.

but you need 10v to create a spark.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/11 at 19:25:48

Exactly what Verslagen said, you need at least 10 volts to get the black box to even fire the plug -- and what is totally "wrong seeming" is the starter will turn the engine over very slowly at 9 volts so you might think you are gunting & cranking .... but you ain't got any spark plug sparking going on.

However, ..... :-/

You are not even reaching that level -- you pull the jumpers off and it instantly totally dies, so your battery sounds like it isn't even supporting 9-10 volts of output.

And no, whapping the frame with the positive jumper cable makes a hell of a spark and a dead short through the steel of the frame and it might do something bad to your car's electronics due to the strain, but it would have zero effect on the motorcycle as the motorcycle electrics doesn't see that current flow at all. Neg is attached to frame and Pos touched the frame and the frame really doesn't care, it's just a piece of steel.

Second time asked, what sort of charger do you have to charge your motorcycle with?

If your charger output is higher than 2 amps, you may also have a kill battery issue due to that charge rate as jell packs don't like heavy charging rates for very long periods of time.

New question, do you own a volt/ohm meter? If not, drop by Harbor Freight and pick one up for $4 and check the output voltage of your battery and tell us what it says.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Routy on 09/07/11 at 07:17:22

Question still remains,....will our bikes run off the charging voltage,....deciphered as,....will it run w/ a very dead battery once it is jumped started from a good battery, and providing the charging system is charging normally ?
I would say if quits running when the jumpers are removed, the charging is no good.

Test equip everyone should have,....
1 a 12v test lite
2 a hand held volt meter
3 a battery load tester
and in that order.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/11 at 07:30:50

Answered already by both Verslagen and me.

When you unhook those cables, if the little battery offers less than 10 volts on its own the show simply stops. CDI unit won't fire, show's over.

Let me be blunt -- we have a charging system that can't even handle a set of fog lights or a heated jacket without letting the battery slowly drift down. You know that already.

It "can" charge a discharged battery (if the battery is starting out offering over 10 volts to begin with and it can keep the bike's ignition system running) but it would take for feekin' ever to do so on a weak old battery and you never run the bike that long in town.

Actually, the battery's cell health determines how much of a good reg/rectifier's output would go to charging the battery and how high the "struggle voltage" would be when you take the big jumper cables off. A dead cell, mebbe she could make it -- 2 dead cells no way Hosea (each cell is worth a volt and a half so two cells out puts you below 10 volts)

If you got any form of battery charge issue, SLOW CHARGE IT UP -- set up a pigtail to get to the positive connection (you will need it periodically) and don't try to troubleshoot anything electrical unless the battery is fully charged.

(or you will be chasing butterflies and moonbeams all over the place)

Actually, you can live a very full life simply equipped with a $4 Harbor Freight volt/ohm meter -- Advance Auto will do all the esoteric tests for you for free if you indicate an interest in mebbe buying a battery from them.

Know enough to interpret the results yourself as the freshly hired clerks look at the load tester and always say "Yup, you need a new battery".

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by verslagen1 on 09/07/11 at 07:32:09

Ya need to find someone with a dead battery, not one with a bad cell, but one that won't hold a charge overnight. Then you'll know.

My battery was discharged this tuesday morning after sitting 3 days, must've left the tail light on, we'll see. But I used the charger to spin the starter not touching it to the battery. So I went to work and when I came home, it started normally. When I got home I put on the trickle charger, the green light said it was fully charged.

I would think that as long as the battery wasn't shorted more that a few cells, that the charging system will keep the voltage up over 10v. Put your blinkers on and if it starts backfiring in time with the signal, you got problems. 8-)

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/07/11 at 13:53:21

Checked battery voltage! It was zero. Just put it on a 1 1/2 amp charger/maintainer. The charger says it is charging. The battery has 190 cca but I don't know what the amp/hrs are, just have to see how the charging goes. All I can figure is that the positive battery lead could have been shorted on the battery box for awhile for it to be totally discharged. Thanks everyone for the help. I was really frustrated!

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by genejohnson on 09/07/11 at 18:41:44

Even more confusion now! Charger shut off without showing that the battery was charged. Checked voltage on battery - 16-17 volts and the voltmeter probe wires were very hot to the touch. The charger is only supposed to put out 13-1/2 -14 volts. What gives?

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/11 at 18:59:25

You think You fried sumthin,, Routy got against the pipe & he was wearin shorts!

Awwww, poor Baaaybee..

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/11 at 19:45:26

Take your "fully charged" battery to Advance and get it load tested -- bet it fails.

Or, if that is too much trouble then hook your "fully charged" battery up to your bike and see if it will crank anything -- then immediately check the voltage and report what it dropped down to.

(you load tested it, Savage style)

Gel cells are funny -- you are showing a most excellent surface charge that reflects your battery charger is over charging the shite out of the gel cell battery.

What sort of charger do you have, anyway? You are saying "charger/maintainer" Battery Tenders (maintainers) are no good for charging a dead battery, you can kill them trying to do that.

==============

You did remember to disconnect the battery charger before taking those readings, right? We are looking for the resting charge state of the battery, not the output of the charging system.

For example, if you had just taken the charger terminals off you could get a very high surface charge voltage that actually reflects the output of the charger -- let it sit overnight and test it and you find a much lower "resting charge state" that reflects what is internal to the battery.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by dasch on 09/09/11 at 05:16:58

Interesting... I think you need a new battery. I have a theory explaining 16volts on terminals, but it doesn't really matter. Hook up a light bulb on the bat now, or anything, I bet it'll drop back to zero in 10 secs.

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by dasch on 09/09/11 at 05:18:01

Oldfeller, it seems we think the same way ;)

Title: Re: I think I fried something
Post by Routy on 09/09/11 at 05:37:41

78751F0 wrote:

I mite need help deciphering this one.

I know that a defective battery can throw a charging system voltage into hi ranges.....like 15-16 volts. I have had that happen a few times in my career.

When testing batt voltage w/ a handheld voltmeter, there is no reason for the leads to get even warm, even at any voltage w/ in the scale, unless the meter was on the "amp scale" instead of the volt scale. But then it would blow the internal fuse, or smoke the leads.