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Message started by LarryC on 08/22/11 at 19:48:13

Title: Super Magnet (a little magnet war at the end)
Post by LarryC on 08/22/11 at 19:48:13

After reading the info on the super magnet, I was impressed by the quality of the folks who contribute here. I am eager to know if there is a consensus on the magnet to buy and filter to use in conjunction with it.

Thanks in Advance!

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Oldfeller on 08/22/11 at 21:51:26

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1175727064

contains the historical development of the magnet on the oil filter trick. You will need to source an appropriately sized supermagnet from somewhere, but the Supermagnet Man isn't providing the specific SUPER BIG FAT STRONG magnets that were used in the Tech Post any more. The alternate smaller magnet was the R1106 which is still available and should work on any steel can oil filter made for the Savage.

Good luck .... once you find a SUPER BIG FAT STRONG magnet that you want to use and figure out how you are going to support the weight of it you have got what you were after.

Note: the smaller R1106 is light enough that the spring can support it, so it needs no detailed support planning.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by thumperclone on 08/22/11 at 22:27:06

or a magnetic drain plug

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Drifter on 08/23/11 at 05:48:42

Who sells the magnetic drain plug, what size is it?

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by LarryC on 08/23/11 at 06:18:56

Procycle.com sells both the oil filter magnet and the drain plug magnet.
My hope is to find a magnet that lasts beyond 5 oil changes. Where is the place to get it?

LarryC

Maximum Braking....Apply both brakes fully w/out locking either wheel-MSF

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Boule’tard on 08/23/11 at 06:20:58

Also see http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1197231468 if you haven't already. I am running the thinner magnet from Procycle, along with a magnetic drain plug. The other donut magnets are from supermagnetman.net.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Drifter on 08/24/11 at 06:12:47

Several of the big chain auto parts stores sell magnetic drain plugs any one know the correct size.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Oldfeller on 08/24/11 at 08:22:06

Price your magnetic drain plugs, they were $17 when I bought mine many moons ago.

This is $8.75 plus shipping and is a whole lot more magnet.

http://www.supermagnetman.net/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=404

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/26/11 at 20:30:08

This sentiment was expressed in another thread as well:

Magnet schmagnet.

If you have enough metal chunks loose in your motor to get stuck to a magnet, you have an engine that is starting to come apart. Besides, a lot of the metal that could be loose is not ferrous,... it won't stick to a magnet.

Just use a good filter, and rip it apart at each oil change to see if any visible chunks are in there.

I'll admit, though, there is some value to the magnetic plug,... it will help to forecast a disintegrating engine more accurately.

A plug with metal on it, and a filter with visible chunks,... oh my,... Better start saving for a new motor.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/27/11 at 00:35:28

Capturing any ferrous Fuzz keep it from circulating & eating things,

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/11 at 02:18:37

Gyrobob,

Thou speakest what thy knowest not what of --- Savage motors when new make a lot of loose ferrous trash that is collected by magnetic drain plugs in the form of a oozy black paste with little discrete chunks inside it.

Our transmission dogs make slivers (yeah little tiny metal daggers) and little tiny edge chunks.

They do this for around the first 10.000 miles .... then the flow declines to just a smattering of tiny particles at each yearly magnet change.

Thus speaks somebody that had a drain plug magnet in at 480 miles and searched out the main magnet trick because he was shocked at what he found on the little spud. The oldtimers back then freely admitted their drain plug magnets always had mud on them and I knew the little drain plug trick wasn't catching all of it by a long shot.

And yeah, I too once thought most of the solids would be aluminum or something from the clutch pack -- but I learned differently by sorting out the stuff from the filter itself. It is almost 100% ferrous.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/stalactites.jpg

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 06:48:05

[quote author=1C3F3735363F3F3621530 link=1314067693/0#10 date=1314436717]Gyrobob,

Thou speakest what thy knowest not what of --- Savage motors when new make a lot of loose ferrous trash that is collected by magnetic drain plugs in the form of a oozy black paste with little discrete chunks inside it.

Our transmission dogs make slivers (yeah little tiny metal daggers) and little tiny edge chunks.

They do this for around the first 10.000 miles .... then the flow declines to just a smattering of tiny particles at each yearly magnet change.

Thus speaks somebody that had a drain plug magnet in at 480 miles and searched out the main magnet trick because he was shocked at what he found on the little spud. The oldtimers back then freely admitted their drain plug magnets always had mud on them and I knew the little drain plug trick wasn't catching all of it by a long shot.

And yeah, I too once thought most of the solids would be aluminum or something from the clutch pack -- but I learned differently by sorting out the stuff from the filter itself. It is almost 100% ferrous.

Sorry. I was speaking mostly of what is found true in aircraft. The manufacturers, and a few million mechanics (and the knowledge obtained from few hundred thousand personally savored miles on our beloved vehicles) understand that the magnet schmagnets do have some value, but that value is only to provide some warning of a motor that is about to die and possibly cause some people to die.

Most of them will testify that as a way to prevent errant metal powder from getting into the oil system and getting pumped into important places, they are not effective at all. The metal stuff that falls to the bottom of the crankcase has very little chance of being sent out to the rest of the engine, schmagnet or not. If it happens to get close enough to the schmagnet, and if it is ferrous, it might stick to the magnet. Whatever.

If we could do a properly documented study of 100 LS650 motors in real life run to failure equipped with a schmagnet, and compare those results to 100 LS650 motors run to failure equipped with a stock drain plug, I would be very surprised if there were any longevity differences between the schmagnet motors and the drain plug motors. This assumes they were run to failure,..... I will admit, still, that in real life, if you were not checking the filters, and if you were checking the schmagnets, you might be able to save a few catastrophic failures by noticing a sudden increase in large metal chunks on the schmagnet. Then again, if the chunks are that obvious you'd probably notice them when they fell out of the drain hole, not to mention what you'd see in a cut-apart filter.

I'll also admit that the schmagnets are cheap, and except in one circumstance, have no downside at all, so it probably is just being conservative, even if unnecessarily so, to buy and use a schmagnet.

The one circumstance to which I allude, is the several cases documented (in autos and bikes and mowers etc.) where the magnet fell off the schmagnet. If you are one of the "i don't want loose metal powder in the bottom of my crankcase" cult, then your angst level might go up a little if you installed a schmagnet, not being able to sleep very well, tossing and turning over the possibility of a loose magnet wandering around inside the motor.

Go buy and install a schmagnet,... feel good about it,... life is great, eh?

The only real value to discussing this issue is the main reason this forum exists: a bunch of guys bandying about various positions on various issues. As a matter of any real importance, schmagnets don't mean diddly.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Routy on 08/27/11 at 07:01:18

Yeah, that was going to be my question,....at 6K, how long before I can expect a catastropic engine failure. I mean,.......w/o a raptor first of all, then to be de-magged on top of it all, my chances of not getting stranded in the near future must be slim to none ! :o ;D

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 07:31:00

707F657E626477757D7364160 wrote:

Yeah,.. and if you're not using RotSyn, you may not even make it to 6k.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by bill67 on 08/27/11 at 08:37:26

If you have a magnet in your engine just don't get to close to a fire hydrant or you will get stuck to it and have to get a wrecker to get you loose. ;D

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Drifter on 08/27/11 at 08:50:13

Magnets work plain and simple!! All the stuff that gets stuck on them is not spinning around in the engine and tranny slowly grinding away at every moving part!! They work!!

I put a couple inside the Valve cover on my Triumph, the next valve check there was some slimey fuzz stuck on them, which proves that stuff is being circulated around inside the engine. They work!

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 09:16:17

77415A55475641330 wrote:

Dream on.

Yes, they do work plain and simple. They are plain, and certainly simple.

Please keep using schmagnets, though. There is not much of a downside, and it makes you happy. It is good for motorcyclists to be happy.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Boule’tard on 08/27/11 at 10:44:00

If I had to maintain an aircraft engine, and therefore had to rebuild it every X hours, I wouldn't bother with a magnet. In that case, the magnet adds zero hours of service life.

If my bike had "miles to burn" and I was not going to try to minimize wear on it, or was going to sell it before it was anywhere near the end of its service life, I wouldn't bother with a magnet either.

The rest of us will try to maximize our filtration. Schmagnet Party! :D

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by bill67 on 08/27/11 at 11:44:29

Best is to use a good hi-performance (MOTORCYCLE) oil like Klotz,Warning- its not cheap to buy but very cheap in the long run.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/27/11 at 13:39:39

I saw a ratty ol Savage in a Wal Mart lot. It had somewhere around 90,000 miles on the odometer. Looking at the bikes condition, I wul have to say I doubt seriously anyone ever had a magnet in the oil path..

That said, I cant see how it possible for the magnet ( Schmagnetty as it may be) to be a Bad idea..

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Drifter on 08/27/11 at 15:13:45

I always use high quality syn oil in my bikes and truck. Mobile 1 or Amzoil. Not only in the engine but the tranny and rear end as well. I Put a magnet in there same result fuzzy metal stuck on it! They work!

For those that think a magnet is a joke, do a little experiment with your truck or car or bike etc. Buy magnetic plug run 3k miles or 5k miles depending on the oil and conditions then change the oil and look at the plug....if it has anything on it well that is proof it works! It will.

All engines wear new or old and the stuff that wears off the gears and cylinder and rings goes somewhere....if your smart it gets stuck on a magnet!

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 15:44:40

Drifter babbles, "For those that think a magnet is a joke, do a little experiment with your truck or car or bike etc. Buy magnetic plug run 3k miles or 5k miles depending on the oil and conditions then change the oil and look at the plug....if it has anything on it well that is proof it works! It will."

All you are proving is that the magnet attracted some particles. So??

This is like saying, "I know they are good tires,... they lasted for their entire life."

or

"I can prove these elephant deflectors work,... in over 100,000 miles of travel around these here United States, I have not once run into an elephant."

or

"Put in a transmission temp gauge. I know they work. I can tell it is working because it attracts degrees while I am riding -- the needle moves to the right. Then when I am done riding, it lets go of the degrees -- the needle moves back to the left. No one could ever tell me this temp gauge does not work,.. this is absolute proof."

Like schmagnets, none of these gadgets will make the bike last any longer. They are fun to play with, however.

Everyone please understand,.. I am not saying to not use schmagnets. Buy one for every drain plug you own!! Few of us would be out more than a $100 if we did so. No big deal. The important part is if it makes your life better. If you feel comforted by knowing there is a fuzzy layer building up on your schmagnet, that is wonderful. What a cheap way to get an innocent thrill.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 15:58:15

49445E474E5F4A594F2B0 wrote:

If I had to maintain an aircraft engine, and therefore had to rebuild it every X hours, I wouldn't bother with a magnet. In that case, the magnet adds zero hours of service life........

Aircraft use schmagnets for a real need. In aircraft motors, there is a lot of analysis that happens at each oil change.

You can go as far as sending the oil off to a lab that will give you a report on the exact proportion of what materials they find in the oil, which will then give you an idea of the internal state of the motor.

If you choose to not suffer the expense, then a schmagnet, combined with the cutting apart of the oil filter will give you a less advanced way to understand what might be happening inside.

If over the last 30 oil changes, the schmagnet has had nothing other than a dusting of powder on it, that tells you something. If at oil change 31, there is a marble-sized buildup of shiny little shards, that tells you something else altogether. You'd best be tearing that engine down, and not hauling any humans with it.

So, everyone here, please use schmagnets. They may serve as early warning devices. Aside from that, though, they don't do squat. As Boule'tard says, they add zero hours of service life.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/11 at 16:33:41

Boule, you say dat? Wut Gyro say you say? I see he say you say, but whut you say sound different ..... whut did you say, anyway?

"As Boule'tard says, they add zero hours of service life."

So please, knock yourselves out all you want to. Here's a little squirt of lighter fluid that V-tail used to like (flamed him right on up) -- here's a pic of the ferrous trash that goes through the oil filter completely (on the inside of the filter coating the center core).

And ALL this trash went up through your oil pump, so let's forget about it just laying around on the bottom of your cases -- that jest ain't so.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/holes.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/magnet.jpg

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Boule’tard on 08/27/11 at 17:50:42

625C574A474A47250 wrote:

Aside from that, though, they don't do squat. As Boule'tard says, they add zero hours of service life.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said the magnets matter nothing to an engine scheduled for rebuild at a certain, conservative number of hours anyway. That is not the case with our motorcycles.

Your characterization of others' comments on this thread is similarly cheap and incorrect.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/27/11 at 20:23:12

68657F666F7E6B786E0A0 wrote:

[quote author=625C574A474A47250 link=1314067693/15#22 date=1314485895]
Aside from that, though, they don't do squat. As Boule'tard says, they add zero hours of service life.

[/quote]

Sorry. I thought when you said, "In that case, the magnet adds zero hours of service life." it meant "In that case, the magnet adds zero hours of service life."

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Boule’tard on 08/27/11 at 22:00:44

Aw, don't play dumb ::) Clearly, you applied the comment to a different case. Anyway, apology accepted.

So, what do you make of manufacturers that use magnets in their original engines and transmissions? Some are attached to the drain plug and meant to be cleaned at each oil change (Husqvarnas) and some are to be cleaned during a major service when the pan is off (Toyotas). Neither are for inspection purposes, the manuals just say “clean them.”

Huskys generate a ton of engine-trash and IMO need all the filtration they can get. Toyotas, not so much. I would guess the Savage falls somewhere between them in terms of junk sloughed off the engine parts, and general engine stress.

Then we have the manufacturers not wanting to make maintenance a bigger deal than is necessary to make the engine last as long as the rest of the vehicle. So the designers come up with various screens, paper filters, magnets and centrifugal devices that they think will provide adequate filtration while not making maintenance too much of a PITA. The ones that incorporate magnets into their designs aren't exactly the copper health bracelet wearing, placebo-popping idiots you might imagine. Magnets catch stuff that is bad for engines.

Adding a magnet to a finished design might well go beyond a “point of diminished returns” and the owner might never notice the difference in wear. That is the point I think you are trying to make. But you can't say the difference is zero, and you don't know how significant it is. The magnets do indeed catch abrasive material that would otherwise be circulating around the engine. So an owner that chooses to run a magnet is reducing the wear on the engine to some degree. You can call that insignificant, but you can't call it nothing.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by bill67 on 08/28/11 at 04:42:37

How about calling it wishful thinking.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Drifter on 08/28/11 at 05:10:57

gyro an idea why dont you just remove the oil filters from your bike and cars...they are as worthless as magnets stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and all will be right with the world.

When presented actual facts from someone who has been doing something for 30 years and has proven to work. Then to have some pinhead dismiss it as dribble....well that pretty much proves you are wanting to cause trouble or you are a moron.....this is the end of my comments to you!!!

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/28/11 at 07:06:52

497F646B79687F0D0 wrote:

You make me smile.
;D

Besides, I've been doing something longer than you have. 30 years? ::) I've got calluses older than that.

Title: Re: Super Magnet
Post by Gyrobob on 08/28/11 at 07:08:37

767D78782223140 wrote:

How about calling it wishful thinking.

Zackly!!!

While it probably won't damage anything (unless the schmagnet falls off, which it does every once in a while), creating a fine dust layer won't make your motor last any longer,... probably.

Title: Re: Super Magnet (a little magnet war at the end)
Post by Oldfeller on 08/29/11 at 05:47:57

Now this is a mild benefit that others might not care about, but the magnet allows you to see the effects of changing brands of oil by changing the amount/size of the particulates captured.

I noted a decrease in number/amount and a finer size of trash after changing from Mobile 1 to Rotella T-6 which was information of a sort although nothing "definitive".

http://www.supermagnetman.net/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=404

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/pict0004.jpg

People keep harping on the cost -- mebbe some places charge a lot of money for a supermagnet but this magnet right up above costs less than $10 and you don't have to do anything but pop it on the outside surface of your oil can -- the spring goes through the center with lots of clearance and it doesn't weigh enough to do anything to your filter mounting system when you go over the bumps.

BTW, that fuzzy picture is the entire oil filter and magnet hanging from the corner touch of a paperclip to the same side of the filter can -- supermagnets got that name for a reason !!!

Protection goes up and you have the chance to have a cheapie Emgo oil filter act like an expensive fine filtration unit for periods of over a year (multiple oil changes for Dino oil, or if you run a synthetic oil like T-6 you can run a once a year change cycle with a 2 year filter change). I am not saying you should do this (silicates do build up over time) but you can do it as I have done it just to see what builds up in the filter pleats.

The enjoyment you get from playing with your ring magnet makes filter change time almost fun instead of the messy expensive drudgery it winds up being otherwise.

"What did my ring magnet catch this time?"

"Does my new oil work any better?"

:D Weeeeee !!!

Example

I changed back to dino oil for one oil change at the recommendation of the Web Cam people when I first put my high stepping stage 2 cam in place. The size and amount of trash I found at the next short interval oil change was right back at the levels I had seen before going to T-6, so I quickly went back to T-6 for my running oil and the trash level went back down again.