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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1313642398 Message started by mr.HUBA on 08/17/11 at 21:39:58 |
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Title: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by mr.HUBA on 08/17/11 at 21:39:58 after cleaning out my carbs w/ seafoam then taking her apart for some berrrymans, that I bought after reading it was no good. . . aha but the carb itself was not even dirty. . . SO the leaking gas from carb vent tubes is due to my chump stock petcock. Im about to by a Raptor one from Ron ayers, and I couldnt find the link for this "NOTE... ( all Raptor 660 petcocks fit,... I included a specific model/year for internet ordering, and anal retentive counter salespeople...) (Raptor 350 petcocks won't fit)..." or is that it? just all Raptor 660's will work for any year? I own a 96' LS-650. and am about to order the petcock, need to be sure haha. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:08:54 Yup,... any Raptor 660 fits any Savage... ;)... http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687/Criteria/5LP-24500-01-00&adv=5&kw... ...remember to block off the vacuum tap on the carb... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 22:15:35 514E1274697E7D3C0 wrote:
Don't delude yourself, your "chump stock petcock" is only a master shut off switch. It doesn't control the gas level in your carb during operation. That is controlled by the float valve. You are getting bad advice. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:22:11 Versy,... if the diaphragm in the petcock is torn and leaking... gas flows down the vacuum line, into everywhere.... from above the floats... Flooding occurs without the float system having any problem... Float system can be working perfectly... The gas enters in the vac line, instead of down the fuel line, and flows all through the carb, air box, intake manifold, and down into the crankcase... He is not getting bad advice... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 22:27:04 3026312C34212C37430 wrote:
S'bot, you really should know better. I'm sorry but you got it wrong. A leaking diaphragm leaks into the vac line. the vac line connects to the intake manifold. not the carb bowl. He states that gas is leaking from his vent tubes. And where are they connected? the carb bowl. use your head. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:30:48 Gravity,... the floats block entry into the bowl from the fuel line,... not out of the bowl to the engine or the carb vents...... I do know better... from experience... I think, once you understand this,... you may become a Raptor convert.... Reverse the flow in your mind.... pour gas into the intake manifold, and it goes everywhere... down the jets, instead of up them, by gravity instead of vacuum... except up the fuel line, which is blocked by the float needle... The bowl is not sealed from output by the float needle... it is sealed from the input of the fuel line... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/11 at 22:37:03 http://www.amazon.com/THUMB-WRESTLING-Hog-Wild-Toys/dp/B000GBJ8H4 |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:42:19 JOG,.... you're a huge help... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/11 at 22:46:55 I really try! I do,, |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by mr.HUBA on 08/17/11 at 22:50:04 HAHAHA that thumb wrestling thing is incredibly unnecessary but neat. and oh maaaan, well Ima get the petcock and try it out, cause my bike only stays on when riding in PRIME. and I also just did remove my carbs and clean them. but what is the float??? this was my first carb removal and glad to say the bike was still operating upon assembly and I was not a screw extra aha. Is the float that black plastic tube thing that goes up and down controlled by the spring? or is it that passage that is opened up when the throttle pully is activated? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:50:20 I know you do, JOG... I know you do... :-?... Think clever now JOG... your next post is your 12,000th... Actually,.. it'll be hard to top the thumb wrestling... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 22:57:39 Hubba, Hubba.... that black plastic thing is the needle slide... it gets pulled up and down by engine vacuum. The floats are at the bottom, in the float boat bowl... they push a stopper into the fuel line entry point, to stop the gas from just pouring out of your tank... Problem is,... when your vac petcock starts leaking,.. the gas flows down that second line (the vacuum line) which isn't blocked by the float system... and gas goes everywhere... Raptor will fix your problem... Promise... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by mr.HUBA on 08/17/11 at 23:05:29 yes I JOG? :-? hahaha well, alright. this raptor order is going to be confirmed tonight and hopefully shipped out tomorrow. Im excited. I wanna be able to ride in the night time again not fearing bad performance! (my night rides can get pretty late around here) dam, SO this raptor comes assembled or do I gotta put it together myself? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 23:07:04 Versy,... if you don't believe me,... pour gas down your vacuum line, and just see where it goes... Just be sure to change your oil afterwards... :-?... Hubba,... unhook fuel line, put the end in a fuel can, set pet to prime, drain gas... when empty, unbolt two bolts holding pet, and remove... install Raptor (same two bolts)... hook fuel line to it... and block that vac tap on the right side of the carb... Then,..... ride... Oh, yeah... turn the Raptor to on... then ride... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 23:15:34 3721362B33262B30440 wrote:
So you're telling me that the vent lines are connected somehow to the crankcase? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by mr.HUBA on 08/17/11 at 23:17:36 done deal, this should be a picnic compared to carb removal ;D |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 23:20:53 I'm saying,... everything past the float needle is wide open to gravity flow of any liquid... Gas goes everywhere...every direction... all at once... Vent tubes, air box, intake,.. down the cylinder walls into the crankcase... Everywhere !... except, back up into the gas tank... which is securely blocked off by the float needle... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 23:23:28 so what's failed the float valve or the petcock diaphragm? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 23:28:00 I really don't understand how you think cause the diaphragm failed, gas will fill up the intake manifold and then into the bowl and out the vent tubes. Don't you think the airbox will fill up with gas 1st? and the case and cylinder? Remember there's only 3 gal's in the tank. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 23:29:47 If there's gas in the vacuum line... it came from the backside of the petcock... the rubber vacuum diaphragm in the petcock ruptured, and is letting gas flow past it down the vacuum line into everything... the float system can't stop it, because it only blocks off the fuel line... not the vacuum line... Big trouble.... uncontrolled gas flow... ... if the intake valve happens to be closed, it will sorta' block flow to the crankcase... gas flows to the air box, 'till the filter is saturated enough to restrict easy flow,... the next path of least resistance is up the vent lines... Gas will flow until the level in the tank is lower than the last point of escape... ever slower, but not stopping until empty... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 23:34:31 I give up... trying to explain my point. The only way is to let your guinea pig swap out the petcock and have the same problem. He's all yours. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 23:42:47 Versy,... pour gas down your vacuum line and see what happens... Are you that confident in your theory?... I hope not... Really,... don't... just think it through... Gas will flow any direction that is lower that the level of gas in the tank...;)... This is no longer theory to me,... I've watched it happen... so have many others here... SHOOT!... HUBBA!... Change your oil and clean out your air filter and air box before you ride... At least check them... ;) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/11 at 23:53:14 I'm confident that gas will not come out the vent tubes if the petcock diaphragm fails. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Serowbot on 08/17/11 at 23:56:35 Should I believe you?... or my own lyin' eyes?... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/18/11 at 00:02:06 From the horses mouth... 3E217D1B061112530 wrote:
Classic float valve failure. While the engine is running there's absolutely no way gas will go from the vac line, into the carb bowl and out the vents. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Serowbot on 08/18/11 at 00:08:52 Okay,... after this, I absolutely give up... Assuming your float theory,... what makes it any different?... If the gas can't make it's way out the vent tubes with a leaky vac line,... what makes it possible with a leaky float?... Nonsensical... are there different rules for gravity if the fuel enters the same place from a different direction?... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/18/11 at 00:23:06 Vent tubes are connected to the bowl right? So at anything less then WOT, gas flow into the bowl exceeds gas used and fills up the bowl then out the vent tubes. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 00:26:57 Float assemblies tend to stick when they get to the absolute ends of their travel. Vac petcock illness can fuel starve a bike and the float assembly goes down to the low end of its travel and it can stick in the open position. Supply gas again with the float stuck open and you can get the gross flooding symptoms mentioned above. Heck, I had mine stick the other way, in the closed position too. Same fix in either condition -- whack the bowl 2-3 times with a screwdriver handle and jar the float assembly so it starts moving again and things will tend to even out in the center 'NORMAL FLOAT TRAVEL" position provided you finally have a petcock that always provides gas in quantity when expected. "Floats getting stuck" goes hand in hand with the float level irregularities of a sick vac petcock showing its stiffness of diaphragm gas starvation arse -- you don't even have to go to the extreme of splitting the vac petcock diaphragm to get some serious flooding. ============= And yes, I/we think vac petcock irregularities happen to get involved in a lot of "different stuff" -- sad thing is when the Raptors go in the shite stops happening. (so far anyway Raptors have proven out to be a fix). Eventually whatever it is won't stop and I'll be wrong and then you can say a hearty "Aha !! I done told ya so !!" Odds are it will happen, but right now I'd have to screw up a whole lot of times to equal out the times I've already been right. Most controversial item that I think that has been done by the vac petcock is damaging engines due to minor galling of the pistons due to lean/overheating and/or lube film dilution -- but we got at least one clean confirmation on that theory now just recently. We are still waiting for somebody to offer evidence of sudden onset oil consumption, but logically that is just a mild case of the partial seizure that has already been confirmed. ======================= <Vent tubes are connected to the bowl right? So at anything less then WOT, gas flow into the bowl exceeds gas used and fills up the bowl then out the vent tubes.> Let's just say a float sticks in the full down position due to gas starvation emptying out the bowl completely. (starvation happens, we know the bikes die and give trouble starting back up cause the bowl is EMPTY) Stuck open float flooding that would be massive enough to fill up the bowl and to go up an additional vertical 3-4 inches worth of vent tubes would also be gushing out of the main jet around the slide needle clearance (and the pilot jet and any other passage between bowl and venturi areas) and mebbe this flow of loose gas could be running down the intake rubber to the head and getting past a cracked open intake valve to the top of the piston and going around and down past the ring gaps and down the cylinder walls into the sump, washing off oil film as it goes .... (and that's if the engine isn't running, if it IS running and sucking in masses of air to pick all that gas up into overwet torrents of mist and then sucking it all directly into the cylinder, well it gets there quicker and it isn't all going to burn because there isn't enough air to burn it all so the walls get washed down with gas droplets that again dribble down and wind up in the sump ......) Now let's throw this into "everything all running at once" motion with the vac petcock partially starving things while the float is stuck open trying to flood things -- wow, I think it could get downright confusing .... Throw in a split in the diaphragm if you really really really think you need to. .... you already can't sort out which from what and "why" is already floatin' and a bobbin' in the bilges right next to the sorry rascal bad vac petcork which started the whole durn thing to spinning .... So far Raptors make the bad stuff stop and so far Raptors haven't been seen to put any gas into any sumps not yet anyway (perhaps because floats are staying in the normal zone in the middle rather than going to the ends of travel all the time) But we are all looking for it, you me Routy Verslagen and Serobot and everybody else .... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by drums1 on 08/18/11 at 05:41:28 For some strange reason, I suddenly feel compelled to run (not walk) and purchase me one of them there Raptor Petcocks. Surely this will fix all that ails my poor bike? :o |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by RidgeRunner13 on 08/18/11 at 06:13:36 Y'all are making this way to hard. PLUG the vacuum line & turn the petcock to PRIME. If you still get fuel from the vent tubes, the problem is a leaking needle & seat. If you no longer get fuel out the vents, the problem is the petcock leaking from the vacuum line. 8-) Of course there could be more than one problem occuring at the same time, but that is unlikely. :o HTH. ;) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Sunchasers on 08/18/11 at 08:31:14 4A717C7F7D4A6D76767D6A292B180 wrote:
(Trumpets Sounding) Now that makes total sense! :) All I know is that after installing the Raptor, I have not had any fuel supply issues one way or the other. Personally, I never cared for the whole vacuum operated fuel valve concept. The first bike I bought with one, I was always trying to turn it OFF out of habit. ;D ON/OFF/RESERVE... simple and time tested. ;) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 09:05:17 Serobot, RidgeRunner's addition to THE TEST sounds like it may have some merit. Ponder on it a bit and see if you can work it in up in the main post up top if you think it is worthy. I have noticed the main body of THE TEST has picked up some extra explanations and extra details as we have worked them out through discovery and discussion. Verslagen's main protest is that "everything is the fault of the petcock" and eventually he is right and something is gonna eventually fail completely apart from the petcock and I am gonna eat some crow. Eventually. Bite that big ol' stinky dirty bird and spit me some black feathers .... Problem is that just about every new bike eventually has vac petcock issues (or the associated vac petcock symptoms). Some of these associated items are STONE BAD NEWS and can potentially harm your engine. I'll keep counting up occurrences and reserving Verslagen's right for something to screw up apart from the vac petcock, but as the occurrences and evidence mount up you will have to eventually consider that a preemptive vac-dectomy would keep down the spread of issu-itus, it would greatly simply the new Savager's life and it could help protect his sump, cylinder walls and piston. Until then, we will continue to have these discussions periodically as they do help uncover and explain the complexities of the intricate failure modes of the infamous vac petcork. ;D Har there Maty, ..... plus it's more fun than a keel-haulin' |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 09:36:03 Got us a poll again, vote for as many as you feel like voting for. If you screw up, you can delete your vote and then re-vote again correctly. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Serowbot on 08/18/11 at 09:36:50 That is the test, OF... Just what Ridge says... Turn to prime, block the vac line... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 09:41:53 The sticking float/leaking valve and seat part -- you could mention whacking the bowl with a screwdriver handle or you are gonna have newbies tearing down their carbs right and left and screwing up their carb teardown/rebuilds right and left. Durn aggravating vac troublesucker -- makes it hard to even talk about testing it .... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/18/11 at 10:31:48 gottcha'... I'll add a tip about that... ;)... Quote:
;)... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Markusublime on 08/18/11 at 14:13:26 I've found the raptor from the following site for less than Ron ayers,$17 from this place,less if you enter coupon code meetsister during checkout.got mine for $15 and change. http://www.powersportsplus.com/parts/detail/yamaha/YP-5LP-24500-01-00.html |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Routy on 08/18/11 at 14:49:20 I fully understand and believe that if the valve diaphram fails, gas could gravity flow to the intake manifold,....to the piston, seeping down into the crankcase,.....also asuming it could seep into the carb bowl from the intake manifold,......and who knows where else. What I don't believe is that the valve diaphram fails nearly as often as our group makes it out to do. If diaphram material failed 1/50 th as often as is said here, there would be vehicles lining the shoulders of every road in the country w/ blown fuel pumps ! It is the same diaphram material w/ a life expectency of 10-20 yrs miumum. The problem I see, is anymore everyone is deathly gun shy of the valve now, blaming everything but a kitchen sink problem onto the vac valve. If they have even so much as a misfire, they are instantly ordering and installing a Raptor, because ya all have them convinced that the Raptor works miracles, and fixed every problem,.....when in reality....and fact, most times it did not. Several problems have come up here, instantly blamed onto the petcock, when come to find out it already has a Raptor. I know 2 other bikes personally....'06 & '07, not on this forum,.....make 3 bikes incl mine, 4 & 5 yrs old, and never a problem. JMTs |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by mr.HUBA on 08/18/11 at 15:29:08 567A69706E686E797772767E1B0 wrote:
shoot, wish i saw this just 8 hours earlier. . . ahaha OK, so lets say the raptor does not fix my problem of over flooding gas into the carb and evnetually dripping slightly down the airbox breather tube on the bottom of the bike. This would leave that my problem is a stuck float? I've got my carb out and cleaned it in berrymans (which i found is bunk these days >:( ) and also ran two appropriate does's of SeaFoam. My night situation still persists on with the bike not being able to idle long enough on its own to warm up, before it shortly dies off. :'( -also yesterday DURING THE DAY when it was warm as hell, on a small ride up and down some hills with my buddy. My bike running perfect on the "ON" position of the petcock was acting up on me at half tank. I pulled into a gas station and filled up and could not start the bike easily even after having ran the bike for 1 hour. after three failed starts even with a little throttle the bike finally started up fine and the trip was continued. --- How would I fix the possibility of my floats sticking even after the cleaning of my carb? the ultimate replacing of the float itself??? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by RidgeRunner13 on 08/18/11 at 16:02:36 No, your problem could be the needle not sealing well in its' seat. When you have the carb apart, look closely at the tip of the needle to see if it is worn or damaged. Also look closely in the seat where the needle fits for wear or damage. If the needle is not sealing properly, it will seep gas past it even if the float is working properly. While your in there, check the float to see if it is leaking & has fuel in it, causing it too be too heavy to float properly & seal the fuel inlet. What is supposed to be wrong with Berrymans? I've been a mechanic all my life & an ASE certified master auto tech 26 years now & have rebuilt more carburetors than I can remember & always soaked the really dirty ones in Berrymans with excellent results. Where are you getting your info? 8-) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Routy on 08/18/11 at 17:26:03 A name that has been around as long as Berrymans, doesn't stay there by not doing the job. Its top rated in my book, always has been. Maybe you would look for the reason the float is sticking,.....if it is sticking. Maybe they are bent, which could also give it a wrong fuel level in the bowl. Then again, it probably is the needle valve. Do you have an inline fuel filter tween the tank and the carb ? You should have one. Suzuski didn't put one there because it didn't need one when they owned it ::) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Serowbot on 08/18/11 at 17:40:26 Hubba,.. since you have already ordered the Raptor... Try it first,... before trying to fix something else, that may not even be broken... Then,.. if the Raptor doesn't fix it... You'll know... I still think the Raptor will fix it...;)... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Routy on 08/18/11 at 18:32:27 I'm curious,.... Has the Savage had the "Vac Petcock" since day one ? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Boofer on 08/18/11 at 18:57:19 Does this mean I need to go back to my Suzuki petcock and clamp off the fuel line with a clothes pin? ;D |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 19:01:03 It get down to that, doesn't it? With the vac petock in place there is so much "noise" and so many conflicting symptoms that you can't proceed with confidence to do much of anything. Take all of that murk out of the water (replace vac petcock with a Raptor) and suddenly whatever is still wrong sticks out very clearly. Now in this particular case, we shall see won't we? What remains, if anything once the vac petcock is out of the picture? ============= Do you want to fix your vac petcock instead of replacing it? Veslagen is the best source for the issues that come back to see you AFTER you fix your vac petcock. The VAC HOSE is the first re-occuring item, Veslagen routinely replaces his vac hose yearly as a preventive maintenance item. Second thing an occasional time/occurace based rebuild of the rubber diaphragm for stiffening or splitting. This is years and years and years between needing, but it will happen. Each time it costs as much as a $15 powersports Raptor would cost just to buy the diaphragm rebuild kit. Lastly -- do all the vac petcock symptoms disappear completely even with this rigorous routine of rebuilds/hose replacements? Honestly prevails, Verslagen admits to seeing occasional mild occurrences of high speed fuel stumbling (I keep telling him to keep up with these stumbles and plot his oil consumption against them on his freshly rebuilt motor but he just growls at me) ============================ OK, lets talk about the times the Raptor change out didn't fix the various issues that the newbies drug in behind them when they first arrived. ................. ................. ................. ................. ................. We are still waiting for that list of newbie items the Raptor change out didn't fix. Routy says he's got some, so I am sure he will tell us (in good time, give him some time to do his research). I call on the newbies themselves to speak up if the Raptor didn't fix it -- we got a crow bet on this so this is serious stuff now. Yes, I went out and shot a big buck crow and I got him in the freezer should I need to thaw him out and munch on him. Eventually, I know I am gonna get to take me a bite of musty crow (but so far the crow is intact) http://www.crowbusters.com/photos/mphoto53.jpg Now, will those that say there is nothing wrong with the stock vacuum actuated petcock agree to sit down with me at the crow table and make the counter bet -- that changing out the vac petcock doesn't fix/help anything? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xrXDVK4JrFI/Te4oWHkzxNI/AAAAAAAAA6I/m3MNu07w8z0/s1600/crow1.jpg |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Boofer on 08/18/11 at 19:08:04 I actually replaced my petcock with a Raptor petcock because of starvation and surging. Being around engines and equipment all my life, I see the potential for a flooding problem. It should be brought up to Newbs, but it is a small possibility. The Rotella I run gets dark really quick, so an increase in the level from gas would be noticed at least before I ride because I check it. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/11 at 19:58:33 We are all still looking for the first Raptor based oil-in-sump episode as that will be the first true "non-aggravated by vac petcock up down fuel levels" float needle/seat failure. We are still looking for that first one so we can understand it. Every 3-4 months we see a clear example of the other kind, newbies bring it to us as a " carburetor problem". |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/11 at 12:04:19 06252D2F2C25252C3B490 wrote:
Take the eye patch off and put away your peg leg, keep the parrot if you must. ;) Your xtalk level is set too low... "occasional... high speed stumbling" is caused by a leaky vac hose on a hot day cause I refuse to use hose clamps more because I have the tank on/off more than most. And that does contribute to vac line deteriation. Also, "occasional... high speed stumbling" does not contribute to sudden onset of oil consumption. I may however cause sudden onset to silence. So, unless you're going to claim the stock petcock causes bleary eyed 'god I gotta go to work' forgetfulness that is obliterated by the joyful glee of the 1st WOT and only becomes apparent upon the last decel and wondering why it's not slowing fast enough to exclaim 'oh sh!t choke still on' sudden onset of oil consumption. Man do you know what that bird did to the back of your jacket? That bird is related to raptors you know. ;D All I'm saying is fix what needs fixin' |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/11 at 12:44:30 Oh arrg, my parrot done pooped on me durn jacket again ..... Silly bird, I ought to introduce you to yer cousin the crow whut lives in the freezer .... mebbe I'll let you visit with him fer a while if you crap on me jacket again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Verslagen is saying his own personal human errors & hose clamp laziness are causing his occasional stumbling, not his petcork -- so his cylinder walls and piston ring zone are safe from any little lean events. Well, his clampless vac hoses won't hold suck good enough on his freshly rebuilt vac petcork and his petcork/engine combo ARE stumbling, so's unless I am missing something, mebbe his float levels are going down on occasion and mebbe he does lean out a bit. So, mebbe he is a wee bit at bit at risk to developing sudden onset oil consumption. And Verslagen is honest enough to tell us when his rebuilt engine starts using any oil out of the ordinary. He won't like it, but he would tell us. He would start out with a statement how it was normal at this mileage, etc etc and we would all stomp our mugs on the bar as he finished each sentence and say "Arrgh!" at the end of each one of his proclamations. ;D ;D ;D (Me wee little soaring carnivore bird ain't got no vac hose for me to be failing to put a hose clamp upon, sos I canna be a telling him I have the same issue to deal wid. Mine jest runs, no stumbling to it ) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Serowbot on 08/19/11 at 13:00:03 Here's the thing.... When a Noob is having a fuel problem, it's much safer to have them do the Petcock test, than to have them start digging into jetting and floats... It's an easy test that can save a lot of carb damage... If the petcock is ruled out as the problem,... then you go in... ;)... KISS method... Keep it Simple Stupid... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/11 at 13:11:57 Now now don't be a calling the loyal crew of HMS Ye Old Stock Vac Petcock no scurvy names there me maty .... some of them crew with us on other issues so they can't actually be no simples nor stupids -- that ain't kerrect at all. We don't even really disagree on the actual facts -- it be what actually happens inside that mysterious vac petcork when it blatts about is whut we disagree on mostly. We don't disagree that it expels gas on occasion, we jest can't agree as to whether it is a flatulence or a belch ..... And although the wimmen folk are vocal and surely don't like it very much, we men cannot come to a consensus how really truly serious them little couch & chair circular brownish stains really really are. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/11 at 13:17:05 64474F4D4E47474E592B0 wrote:
Why do you think lean out causes sudden oil consumption? |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/11 at 13:48:36 Running at highway speed, your vac petcock fuel delivery rate goes lower because the intake tract vacuum level goes down a bit on our engines at full throttle -- so a little less gas (relatively) is flowing into the bowl. The bowl level starts to go down a bit, so the fuel height pressure to the main and pilot jet goes down a little bit as well. So, a little less gasoline hits the same air volume going past the butterfly in the venturi so your engine power goes down a little bit. So, you crank a little more butterfly open to try to keep up the same speed. So, your fuel delivery is down, your float level is decreasing and you are turning open the butterfly in the venturi more to get a little bit more "go" out of the engine. It is a feedback cycle, resulting in lean conditions in the combustion process in the cylinder. This increasing "lean out feeback cycle" continues until you can't get enough gasoline to keep your speed up at all, and you feel this and call it "an occasional mild stumble". You may think you need to get some gas and you might stop and get some and this may actually help as more gas in the tank means more vertical pressure at the petcock and a little more gasoline will flow at a given vacuum level. But, say you are on the way to work and you jest keep on getting down the road. Lean combustion conditions raises the piston crown temps, higher crown temps expand the piston crown a wee bit more than the cold measured .005-.0055" ring area running clearance can accommodate and the hotter than normal piston ring area begins to run into a mild interference condition with the cylinder wall. Now, this is a mild case of early chronic lean out -- you won't melt a hole in the top of the piston for a little while yet nor will you pop a valve just yet and your ring grooves widths aren't going to shrink or gall just yet. Now, how good is your oil? Maybe you won't seize, perhaps you will just get some intermittent friction piston braking when the oil film starts to break down jest a little tiny bit. Heck, feels just like another little stumble to me, crank the biatch open some more and let's go -- I gotta get to work. You keep on running lean conically because your vac petcock isn't keeping your bowl full and eventually mild galling starts on your piston, generally right up on the front side of the wrist pin support running up towards the crown up past the ring grooves. The rings begin to get pinched or impeded by the displaced metal, and low and behold you start using more oil. You don't notice it for a few days or weeks as you are used to your bike not using any oil, so when you do notice it, to you well you just suddenly started using oil --- "sudden onset oil consumption". ================= I can tell you exactly when mine happened -- I was on the new 285 bypass around Charlotte getting ready to take the I-85 exit to go west on I-85 to hit 321 to go up to Toymaker's -- I was winging it at 85 mph keeping up with beltway traffic and getting a mild stumble so I thought I was needing some gas, I flipped to reserve and kept on getting it as I knew eventually putting it in reserve was going to get me some gas. I stumbled/mini seized my way down to 65 mph before I hit the exit, then I rode (stumbling) until I got to the next exit with a gas station. I could not put 2 gallons of gas in the tank, but I didn't know what that meant back then. Nobody had ID'd the vac petcock as a major pain in the butt back at that point in time, but lots of us sure had odd carb issues we chased with jets and carb tear downs, oh lordy yes .... But I noticed I needed to top up my oil at Toymakers. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/11 at 14:05:37 In my experience, this "lean out feedback cycle" is so short that if you don't hit prime or reserve in short order you'll experience the sudden onset of silence. And in any event, overheating the piston causes a loud screech followed by sudden silence. Sudden onset of oil consumption is caused by overrich washout of the cylinder lube. |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/11 at 14:25:27 677463627D7076747F20110 wrote:
;D |
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Title: Re: Raptor Time indeed. . . QUESTION<<<<< Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/11 at 16:59:18 I gotta empirical test for this item, what we do is we carefully ask people who are talking about changing out their piston what prompted them to do it (see if they had any vac petcock involvements) and then get them to report in an unbiased manner what sort of damage they see on their pistons and see if the rings were impeded by any displaced metal or galling. Slow, yes. Accurate, yes Decisive, yes |
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