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Message started by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:05:04

Title: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:05:04

I was attempting to pull the brass plug on my Fuel/Air Screw and I think I drilled right into the screw. How big is this plug? And if I indeed drilled the screw, do i have any options.

I am not sure if the drilling changed my fuel air mixture. The bike is running ok. A little more poppy, a little more hesitant on the low end but it does that sometimes when the weather is really humid as it is now. So I can't tell.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by EJID on 08/01/11 at 12:11:09

If you can post a pic of the damage it might be helpful. If I recall, the plug is maybe 1/16"-1/8" thick or so, so it doesn't take much to get a hole into it. If you're lucky you may have just made a mark in the brass screw and everything will still be functional.

All you really needed to pull that plug was a very small hole through it where you could put a drywall screw or other screw in and get a thread or two to grab so you could pull the plug back out.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:14:09

No I definitely drilled further than 3/16th of an inch. I drilled prolly 1/2 an inch or so.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 12:17:52

You have officially customized your idle mix screw... ;)...

See if it is still turnable...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:21:36

No the head of the screw if that is what I am seeing is drilled into. So it has no head it just the the drill divot. Just a round crater no head

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:24:33

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc506/AZSGT/IMG_3196.jpg

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 12:29:29

That's fantastically boogered!.... ;D...

If your idle is okay,... just leave it... If you need to adjust, you'll have to figure a way to get it out (easy-out?)...
A new one is about ten bucks... :-?...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by EJID on 08/01/11 at 12:30:14

OUCH!!!!

Looks like trouble...looks like the TEV screws have been damaged as well, but at least those should be able to be removed with pliers on the outside of the head.

Looks like you will be pulling the carb to try and remove the screw in my opinion.

Sorry :-[

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:30:39

I'm all about a new one, getting the old one out is the real issue.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by EJID on 08/01/11 at 12:32:39

I would definitely pull the carb so you can work more carefully and slowly in a controlled environment. An easy out might work because of the soft brass, but you will have to be careful about not boogering up the threads on the carb itself.

Good luck.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 12:34:24

Actually,... nix the easy-out idea... you are in too deep...

I'd sharpen the tip of a screwdriver and try to let it cut into the soft brass enough to let you unscrew... ;)...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:34:54

Crap I prayed that someone would say, Nah, it looks fine. NO such luck.

darn it all!!! Another lesson learned

For now my idle is fine and it runs fine so I guess I will leave it until it forces my attention

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 12:37:06

Nah,... it looks fine... ;)...

;D ;D ;D...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:40:33

phew!!! Thanks bot!!

For I second I was worried I screwed something up. Thanks for putting my mind at ease!!!

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:47:17

What if I Epoxy or liquid cement a screw to the remaining head of the screw.

Let it dry and screw it out???

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 12:50:20

You'll get JB stuck to the inside walls and be double boogered...

don't you dare!..:-?...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 12:59:49

Your probably right. I don't think the sharp screwdriver idea will work. It is a lot harder material than you would think. How about screwing all the way through and just drill out the whole screw?

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 13:25:35

Nooooo!... it's a precisely tapered tip screw, going in to a tapered hole....

You'll be buying yourself a shiny new carb... ;D....

kinda' like these...
http://performanceoriented.com/Photos/Idle_mixture_screws.jpg

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/01/11 at 13:51:54

In the future, before you go drilling, find out whats behind what youre drilling, & set a depth limiter on the drill bit. You can buy them or wrap masking tape onto a bit.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 08/01/11 at 15:41:14

When I got my used carb it came with a boogered up screw. It came right out using one of those special screw extracters in a drill. The kind meant for boogered up screws, my set came from Harbor Freight & spun it right out. 8-)

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by ralfyguy on 08/01/11 at 16:12:17

4C5355524F4879497941535F14260 wrote:

In the future, before you go drilling, find out whats behind what youre drilling, & set a depth limiter on the drill bit. You can buy them or wrap masking tape onto a bit.

Also not to forget that brass is a material that differs from other metals in terms when the drill comes out the other side it tends to suddenly catch and rip through, damaging whatever is behind it. In a good machine shop we have drill bits modified just for brass. Even just drilling brass not all the way through it still tends to catch and rip further in if not being careful. We used to modify drill bits as to grind a 0 degree cutting angle to the leading edge, that eliminated all that "bite" and lets you drill brass nice and smooth.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 16:32:54

I have an extractor bit but I can not seem to get it to bite. I don't know if there is enough screw left to bite. I may just need a new Carb.

This blows

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 16:52:12

Try this... grind or file the tip of a small screwdriver into a pitchfork point... nice and sharp at the tips... then, gently tap it into the brass with a small tack hammer or something...
Then,... hopefully.. unscrew...
Squirt some penetrating oil in there, too...

It ain't over 'till it's over... 8-)...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by 2whlthrpy on 08/01/11 at 17:10:03

This site is awesome. 8-)

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Trippah on 08/01/11 at 17:17:39

If its still working, go on with your life..then when you get the serious mod bug..bingo......and not to worry, there are quite a few reading this with a knowing smile. :D

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 17:22:53

That was my plan tripp but it seems as though in all of my fuddling with it, now it is not idling right, very slow, and backfires like CRAZY, so I am gonna have to get it out somehow or a new carb.

Anyone wanna sell a Carb?? lol

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 17:45:52

Mesa ain't that far away... Try my cockamamie scheme,... or I'm gonna' go up there and kick yer' butt...

You got any friends up there that might help me with that butt kicking thing?...
I'll probably need it... :-?...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 17:52:35

lol

A) I don't have that small of a screw driver

B) I really don't think there is enough screw left.
All my messing with it today trying to get it out, ate up even more screw. I really cant tell how much is left, but it doesn't look like much.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by mmosel on 08/01/11 at 17:55:54

I'm sorry for your accident.

I'm getting ready to drill and pull mine this week, so I'm going to be extremely careful.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/01/11 at 17:58:45

Ya mmosel I am sure sorry I didn't pay waaaaayyyy better attention

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Grand Strand on 08/01/11 at 18:09:05

SGT,

I have inherited a similar situation from my PO, nice huh. One thing that I’ve tried is to drive an appropriate torx driver into the drill hole. Now, this hasn’t worked for me but it did seam to be a good idea. I didn’t have much time when I tried it, and I will attempt it one more time before I give up on this idea. I use this site a lot and am glad to contribute a little, and I am interested in reading more about what you find that works.

Bot, could the JB goop stand a chance if you lined the hole with a plastic drinking straw? I’ve never tried that trick on something that small but I have used a pipe to weld to a bigger broken bolt before. Just thinking out loud.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/01/11 at 18:14:01

Very much doubt it... unless the JB had some amount of ridge to bite into, and if you had the ridge, you could do better to snag it with a screwdriver of some kind...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/01/11 at 18:23:25

544F465241150 wrote:

Use a high-quality screw extractor (Snap-on?) like one of these:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/Miscellaneous/scrwextrctr.jpg

If the OOOOPS hole is not deep enough for the screw extractor, drill it deeper,.. the idle screw is already ruined.

The screw is not welded or “lock-tited” into place.

These screw extractor sets, even the high-quality versions, are not very expensive. You need one of these sets for the rest of your life anyway.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Markusublime on 08/01/11 at 21:39:10

I think the screwdriver idea is worth a shot,you may have better luck getting some bite using a torqs (star shaped) screwdriver.if you can't find one that's a perfect fit grind it down to a taper until it fits in the hole (I'd guess you prob need a T15 or T20 size).if you have a harbor freight store nearby buy the screwdriver there so you don't feel so bad about grinding it down.most extractors will just spread the brass out tighter in the bore as you turn,and if it should break off inside then you're really in for some hair pulling as it's near impossible to drill through the extractor. :o

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by verslagen1 on 08/01/11 at 22:14:44

I haven't had this problem, but the last stuck screw I removed with a tapered square extractor.

The advantage is... if you don't have enough bite, it'll round out the hole till you do.

And you'd best use a tap driving handle, one with 2 handles on either side.
It's very important to torque these things w/o bending. cause they don't bend, they snap.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/11 at 04:52:51

362528223D23313D440 wrote:

[quote author=4C5355524F4879497941535F14260 link=1312225504/15#18 date=1312231914]

In the future, before you go drilling, find out whats behind what youre drilling, & set a depth limiter on the drill bit. You can buy them or wrap masking tape onto a bit.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by bill67 on 08/02/11 at 05:36:48

A square nail tapped in there might work.On some of them 2 sides are difference than the other sides. More rectangular than square.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/02/11 at 05:46:55

The screw is useless now anyway, so drill it deeper with a small drill.

Here’s a pic of the screw extractor set I bought from Sears decades ago. The small extractor on the right uses a 1/16” drill (shown far right) for the hole it needs to grab on to a misbehaving screw. You may still have enough metal left to go a little deeper with a 1/16” drill. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/2011-08-02_08-17-47_874.jpg

You don’t need much torque,… all you need is enough purchase for the screw extractor to grab on to the thing.

Good luck.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by bill67 on 08/02/11 at 08:04:16

616A6F6F3534030 wrote:

A square nail tapped in there might work.On some of them 2 sides are difference than the other sides. More rectangular than square.

Maybe even put some super glue on it first then tap it in.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by babyhog on 08/02/11 at 08:59:58

I have a question (read that as female asking a dumb mecahnical question lol) and I'm not even sure how to phrase it. But if you've drilled through the screw, have you wallowed around and boogered any part of the threads too? Or is the screw still protecting the threads? I guess I'm wondering even if you get the screw out, is the hole too far gone for a replacement screw.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Johansson on 08/02/11 at 09:23:57

That screw will come out.
Several ways.
Use the smallest drill bit you have. Some thing on the order of a 1/32 or smaller if you have one.
Drill in the center of the screw. About 3/16's of an inch deep.
Take a scratch awl, slightly grind a flat on one side.
You may have to blunt the end of the scratch awl if you cannot get a tight fit.
Don't use a hammer, just press gently as you insert the scratch awl into the hole.
Use a slight side pressure on the scratch awl and gently back the screw out.
Your previous drilling may have snugged that screw down pretty tight.
It would be best to put the carb in a vise and use a drill press to drill the hole.
The key to this is to get a tight fit on the scratch awl.

Method number 2
Method 1 did not work after about 10 minutes of trying.
Insert and gently press an allen wrench into that hole, again, be careful.
Just use hand pressure, more than this and you could expand the brass screw.
Grind the allen wrench until gentle pressure and slight wiggling will get it into that hole.
Grasp the allen wrench with a small vise grips and tap the vise grips with a wood dowel while applying a little force in the counter clockwise direction.
Tap sharply on the vise grips, this will loosen the screw.

Any machine shop can get that screw out for you.

A vise will be your best friend, all of this should be done with the carb in a vise.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Boule’tard on 08/02/11 at 09:36:44

3033323F3D275E0 wrote:

..But if you've drilled through the screw, have you wallowed around and boogered any part of the threads too? Or is the screw still protecting the threads? .

AZSGT's photo isn't clear enough to really tell, therefore we're free to offer up armchair, manly solutions! :D

Here's what I'd do:

1) Order a new fuel screw. If the old one is still airtight enough for the bike to run well, a new one can be made to work, albeit maybe with a little pipe thread compound or some of that silver anti-seize grease.

2) Take the carb out of the bike so you can get some good light on it, and any further tapping/drilling/picking can be done much more accurately.

3) Use a dental pick or fine needlenose pliers to dig out the remainder of the brass plug.

4) With the screw pointed down, blast out the hole with PBlaster or Seafoam DeepCreep so that any filings are washed out. Pick out any stubborn filings with a toothpick.

5) Turn the screw/hole up vertical and fill it with the same pen.oil and let it sit for a day or so.

6) Get a small easy-out and tap it in with nothing heavier than a screwdriver handle. Since it's brass you're tapping into (and little torque will be applied) you don't need an expensive easy-out. Just get a cheap one from Autozone.

7) Unscrew the old boogered screw, install your new fuel screw, tune and go ride.

If any further drilling is needed to make the easy-out bite, get a left-handed drill bit and use a drill press to make sure the hole is dead center. Even if your drilling is perfectly centered, you don't want the drill bit to bite and cram the screw all the way down. That will mess up the seat that the screw/needle beds into. So any drilling of the screw should be done counterclockwise.

Good luck.. this isn't as gripping as Serowbot's sink repair, but we still want to know what happens.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/02/11 at 09:53:03

42444F52444C4D12270 wrote:

...or you could use a screw extractor,.... a tool designed specifically for this job.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/02/11 at 09:55:45

as Boule'tard said,"If any further drilling is needed to make the easy-out bite, get a left-handed drill bit ..."

Excellent idea.

Now,... where did I put those??,....

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Johansson on 08/02/11 at 09:56:27

Quote:

If any further drilling is needed to make the easy-out bite, get a left-handed drill bit and use a drill press to make sure the hole is dead center. Even if your drilling is perfectly centered, you don't want the drill bit to bite and cram the screw all the way down. That will mess up the seat that the screw/needle beds into. So any drilling of the screw should be done counterclockwise.

Perfect explanation Boule'tard

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/02/11 at 09:56:39

282B2A27253F460 wrote:

A very valid point.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Mattdw on 08/02/11 at 10:02:12

151A1914500 wrote:

OUCH!!!!

Looks like trouble...looks like the TEV screws have been damaged as well, but at least those should be able to be removed with pliers on the outside of the head.

Pliers are one option...
Much easier is to take your dremel with a cutting disk and make a slot and turn that into a slotted screw for removal and then replacing with hex head, or new stainless hardened screws :)
I had to do that with a few screws that got boogered when I was taking apart the carb for the first time. Idiots decided on the soft as butter screws for that carb.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/02/11 at 17:08:43

Not a dumb question at all Babyhog. Cause that is exactly what happened.

Luckily the guy who built the bike for me, said he can fix it for me.

He is gonna drill out the remaining remnants of the screw. Then re-thread that hole and clean it up. Then replace my destroyed screw with one with a slightly bigger diameter head to take up the difference of re-threading. He said he has done it before and is 90% sure she can do it again.

If not, he has a OEM carb off a 07 Savage he is gonna slap on. He said he would charge me $100 for the carb, is that reasonable?

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/02/11 at 17:45:20

The drill out thing, isn't gonna' work... That's not really a "screw"... it's a threaded adjuster... (see pic)...

$100 ain't bad for a carb,... keep the old one for parts, or sell it here to someone looking for parts... ;)...

http://performanceoriented.com/Photos/Idle_mixture_screws.jpg

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/02/11 at 18:21:04

I thought the same thing. He said when he takes the carb apart he can clean all the remaining pieces of the screw out. Then use a tap to re-do the threads and use a slightly larger pilot screw.

I can tell you this, no matter what, I will NOT be screwing with anything before actually reading the procedure and jumping in and "screwing" something up.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/02/11 at 18:45:36

But thank you much Serowbot and everyone else for taking the time to un-stupid me. I appreciate it!!

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by AZSGT on 08/02/11 at 18:48:33

535E445D5445504355310 wrote:

[quote author=3033323F3D275E0 link=1312225504/30#39 date=1312300798]..But if you've drilled through the screw, have you wallowed around and boogered any part of the threads too? Or is the screw still protecting the threads? .

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Birdmove on 08/02/11 at 18:57:48

If you have a drill that goes both ways and a left handed drill bit, often the drill bit, as you drill, will bite into the messed up fastener and screw bit right out.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Serowbot on 08/02/11 at 19:18:02

No stupid here...
We're all just in different stages of learning by mistakes...

Stuck things are always good for flood of ideas...
... and we love a challenge in this forum... ;)...

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Routy on 08/03/11 at 04:36:44

0B10190D1E4A0 wrote:

The bike is running ok. A little more poppy, a little more hesitant on the low end but it does that sometimes when the weather is really humid as it is now. So I can't tell.

I know this doesn't help you now, but I just have to throw in my penny's worth,.........................
From your 1st post,......says your bike is idling/running ok,......possibly running even better before you drilled into the screw?,......if so, a question arises of why you attempted to remove that plug in the first place. And then a 2nd question would be why you wouldn't just leave it alone, rather than take chance of farther damage that could for sure ruin a $400 carburator........costing at least $100 for a used one.

This all comes back to my consistent advice of,......
before hacking (call it whatever) a carb, have a good specific reason for doing so,......not just because you read it somewhere, or just because someone else did it, or just to see if you can change a little backfiring, or correct some other abnormal condition that is really causing the problem.

Not being an expert on this carb,......and using logical thinking only,....which means I could be wrong,.......
I'll still say.....the brass plug means that "normally" the screw under it never needs to be adjusted. Mine hasn't, and the only bikes I know personally (2 not on this forum) haven't either.

Just maybe this may save another hacking down the road some place ? :-/

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by Gyrobob on 08/03/11 at 05:04:10

[quote}

..........I'll still say.....the brass plug means that "normally" the screw under it never needs to be adjusted. Mine hasn't, and the only bikes I know personally (2 not on this forum) haven't either.......

[/quote]

Normally I would agree, but the nanny-state is involved here. The normal means of tuning these carbs has been taken away from us, because the peabrained liberals in the EPA have decided we are not to be allowed to adjust our own mixtures. Often this results in absolutely no adjustment at all -- a fixed jet, so to speak. At least in our case, the politically correct "fix" was just a plug over the normal adjuster,... a plug that can be removed.

So, I don't agree with your theory that "the brass plug means that "normally" the screw under it never needs to be adjusted." It DOES need to be adjusted. There is no way a plain old carb like this can have one adjustment on the idle mixture that will work forever, and in all situations -- hot, cold, humid, high altitude, new motor, old-tired-motor, good gas, bad gas, clean carb, varnish-laden dirty carb, new carb, old-worn-out carb, etc. This is not a computer-controlled fuel injection situation where all the mixtures are constantly adapted to existing conditions.

ooooops,... sorry for the term "peabrained liberals"...... it was redundant

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by drums1 on 08/03/11 at 08:12:59

As with older automotive carbs, a lot of them also had the mixture screw capped over. The purpose of that, as I always understood it, was so the unknowing customer would not fiddle with it. Take it to a mechanic to fix, and he knows how to do it. The plug is meant to be drilled out, by a professional, to be able to adjust the mixture if needed, properly. Otherwise why would there be a threaded, adjustable screw there at all? If it was not meant to be drilled out at some point, when needed, it would be a fixed jet, as someone mentioned earlier. My advice? Read up before ya booger it up. If you ain't sure about something, take it to someone who is. IMO, down time is wasted riding time.

Title: Re: BIG OOOOOPS
Post by bluesrockdoc on 08/04/11 at 06:23:11

If, all else fails... I have always found very few problems that can not be solved with the proper application of a high explosive. 8-)