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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> splicing wires /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1310819188 Message started by BobR on 07/16/11 at 05:26:27 |
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Title: splicing wires Post by BobR on 07/16/11 at 05:26:27 Years ago I put stereos in my cars and lights in the van (and carpet and bed and cupboards etc). I cut the insulation off the end of the wires, twisted the wires together and wrapped it with electrical tape. I want to add lights to my Savage and suspect my old method will not last being open to the elements. Any suggestions as to where and how to splice properly? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by thumperclone on 07/16/11 at 05:31:04 solder then rubber elect tape then shrink tube crimp splices liquid brush on elect tape |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by BobR on 07/16/11 at 06:00:59 Is that an either or?? If I want to splice in to the back brake light, do I join it where it goes into the brake light or cut the wire a few inches from the light or the other end where it goes to the switch? Pretty sure I could do it but I want to do it right the first time. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/16/11 at 09:14:47 Easiest to use crimp connectors, then brush or dip into WM liquid tape. But if you're wanting cosmedic perfection, connect it inside lite if possible. Not really right or wrong either way. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/16/11 at 11:09:08 637F627A677265747B787972170 wrote:
I don't like crimps if they will be subject to the elements because they are dissimilar metals and oxidization can occur. When I inline splice I solder and use adhesive type shrink tube. When I splice more than two wires together I use the adhesive shrink tube and also dip it in liquid electrical tape. Then it's completely waterproof. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by thumperclone on 07/16/11 at 13:40:18 ul listed crimps are compatable with cu.cu.al.al,&cu.al splices as long as they are stranded conductors.. some come with a wp dielectric grease which should be used on al wire |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/16/11 at 14:18:14 667A677F627760717E7D7C77120 wrote:
Sorry but no one will ever convince me that any crimp is better than solder. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/17/11 at 05:49:33 606B6B626E61607A7B0F0 wrote:
Sorry but no one will ever convince me that any crimp is better than solder.[/quote] Sorry, arteacher, but you are holding on to your feelings, rather than facts. You must be a liberal. oooops,... sorry,... I digressed. :-[ In aviation, the preferred method is crimping. With the proper stuff, dissimilar metal corrosion is not a factor, the fatigue resistance is greater, and it requires less work/craftsmanship to make the joint. I will admit, the guy who buys his stuff from Big Lots or from some Chinese vendor on ebay, will not only have crappy stuff that will corrode eventually, it will also fatigue, and probably won't hold the crimp properly anyway. Soldering, though, requires some skill, and more equipment. It is easy to get cold joints, too much solder, incorrect flux, ruined insolation, etc. It is cheaper, though,.. and done properly, has a tidier look to it. With either method, heat shrink tubing is a good idea. With soldered joints, I put on a layer of electrical tape, then heat shrink over that, specifically to restrict the motion at the joint for fatigue resistance. Now with all this going back and forth over which is better, either is fine, as long as you do it properly,.... so there is no reason to get our panties all wadded up over the issue. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/17/11 at 06:03:35 I used to be a solder fanatic in my younger days, but I,......myself have never had a crimp fail, even on my boat trailers in salt water for many years. In my senior years now, simplicity has taken priority, especially when most times the KISS method will outperform the complicated. And ever since I used WMs liquid tape a few years ago, I'm kind of a crimp and L tape fanitic :o |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/17/11 at 06:21:49 616E746F737566646C6275070 wrote:
Zackly. Here's a thought,..... assuming two guys have all the stuff in front of them ready to splice a couple of wires, how long will it take the crimper to do the splice compared to the solderer? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/17/11 at 06:31:14 615F5449444944260 wrote:
Sorry but no one will ever convince me that any crimp is better than solder.[/quote] Sorry, arteacher, but you are holding on to your feelings, rather than facts. You must be a liberal. oooops,... sorry,... I digressed. :-[ In aviation, the preferred method is crimping. With the proper stuff, dissimilar metal corrosion is not a factor, the fatigue resistance is greater, and it requires less work/craftsmanship to make the joint. I will admit, the guy who buys his stuff from Big Lots or from some Chinese vendor on ebay, will not only have crappy stuff that will corrode eventually, it will also fatigue, and probably won't hold the crimp properly anyway. Soldering, though, requires some skill, and more equipment. It is easy to get cold joints, too much solder, incorrect flux, ruined insolation, etc. It is cheaper, though,.. and done properly, has a tidier look to it. With either method, heat shrink tubing is a good idea. With soldered joints, I put on a layer of electrical tape, then heat shrink over that, specifically to restrict the motion at the joint for fatigue resistance. Now with all this going back and forth over which is better, either is fine, as long as you do it properly,.... so there is no reason to get our panties all wadded up over the issue. [/quote] My panties are not wadded up. I speak from experience. I have been an electronics hobbyist for years, and worked installing automotive electronics as well. In my experience properly done solder joints do not fail, and properly done crimps do, especially in corrosive environments. I will agree that crimps are useful if and only if you can't solder for one reason or another. And you have to be very careful with dialectic grease, as it can travel and cause shorts, and has a finite lifespan (dries out eventually). And a properly done crimp has a slightly higher resistance than a properly done solder joint, which is more important in low voltage high current apps. Why do you think that it is suggested that you unplug and replug connectors every so often? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/17/11 at 06:45:25 Laying on the bench, I can splice a wire with a crimp( no heat shrink) in no more than 15 seconds. With heat shrink, add 20 to 25. Solder, everything on the bench & ready to go, I can do that in about 30 secs. & that includes stripping the wires & cutting the heat shrink to fit. BUt,, when workin on a bike, the odds of finding a splice that can be made on the bench go WAY down.. so, it would take longer & I would probably not get to use the same soldering equipment I was thinking of in the above instance, so, Id have to wait for the gas powered soldering iron tip to heat up or drag out a cord. On the bench I remove the soldering tip & just use the little blue flame, & I do have the real, electricians wire strippers, not just those flat things that have the crimpers built in,, & I sure like them. Wish I woulda spent that $$$ years ago. Ill use crimps or solder, depends on the location & application, |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/17/11 at 07:49:04 Isn't it strange that there is not a non printed electrical panel in the world that has 1 drop of solder in it,........yet every connection in it is a crimp,.....w/ I'd bet a 9999999999999.9 % non failure rate. In the automotive field,...before all printed circuits, you will not find 1 drop of solder behind an instrument panel, but there is thousands of non fail crimp connections. I don't think its the price of solder, because its all soldered printed circuits nowdays. And I don't think its the labor either, because thats a toss up....as has been said. Oh, BTW, there is a big difference between a slip connection, than a crimp connection. The slip plug on printed circuits are proned to corrosion after 10 to 20 yrs,......and then only if exposed to outside elements. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/17/11 at 11:27:04 Arteacher said, "My panties are not wadded up." No one said they were. My only point about wadded up panties was that crimp or solder, it makes very little diff, there is no point arguing about it,.... to each his own,.... whatever lights your candle,... etc. Sorry you interpreted it as an insult. He also said, "In my experience properly done solder joints do not fail, and properly done crimps do, especially in corrosive environments." I would submit that the crimp joints to which you refer were not properly done. He also said, "I will agree that crimps are useful if and only if you can't solder for one reason or another." No one asked you to agree with this. That would be silly. It would be like asking you to agree that listening to Beethoven at 90db damages your ears less than listening to Stevie Ray Vaughan at 70db. He also said, "...you have to be very careful with dialectic grease, as it can travel and cause shorts, and has a finite lifespan (dries out eventually)." Another silly point because we don't use grease on crimped joints. Connectors,... maybe,.. but not joints. Also, I am perplexed by your use of the term "dialectic" which means logical argumentation,... a term seldom applied to grease. Perhaps you meant "dielectric" which refers to a material that will not conduct electricity. (if it is dielectric, how could it cause a short?) He also said, "And a properly done crimp has a slightly higher resistance than a properly done solder joint..." Not true. He also said, "..it is suggested that you unplug and replug connectors every so often?" Irrelevant. Apples and oranges. Connectors and joints. Are you suggesting we crimp and uncrimp the joints every so often? :) ;) :D ;D ::) (please note all the smileys above,... they are put there to indicate I was tongue-in-cheek with most of the response. Irreverance, not sarcasm,..) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/17/11 at 12:38:41 Sorry Gyro- I forgot myself and had the tenacity to disagree with you again. :-[ |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by rustysavage on 07/17/11 at 18:50:59 Here's my 2 cents...... Good quality crimp connections are acceptable so are good quality soldered connection. The big reason they fail is when they are not protected from the elements. Quality double wall heat shrink tubing is your friend. Use the right size crimp connector for wire size, soldered connections require the right amount of heat and solder ( insert practise required here ) too little heat or solder= poor connection too much heat or solder= stiff and brittle joint. More fuel on the fire :) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/17/11 at 18:52:02 OHH, & BTW, I forgot to add in the time to light the torch,, add 10 seconds,, it doesnt always play nice. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/17/11 at 19:16:08 How about THIS for a technique: One of my buds out at the airport who is currently building his 4th or 5th aircraft, crimps all his joints/terminals without the plastic crimp,... just a plain metal terminal. Then he puts on a light coat of RTV, then heat shrink tubing. When he heats and shrinks the tubing, the RTV skooshes out each end. He explains his method is the securest and most reliable of all because it is easier to crimp plain metal more securely than metal covered in plastic, the RTV glues it all together and provides complete weather/oil/heat resistance, and the heat shrink tubing, which is now glued to the terminal, provides fatigue suppression because of the strain relief where the wire enters the terminal. All that may be true, but it is slower and kinda messy. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Boule’tard on 07/17/11 at 19:35:59 Gyrobob is right that crimp connectors are preferred in aircaft over soldered connections, because under high vibration the wires are prone to breakage right where they enter the more rigid solder. Crimped connections tend to withstand more vibration by distributing any deflection over more length of each strand, they're not as strained and fewer of them break. Whether this translates to "better for motorcycle connectors" is debatable, because with motorcycles the concern is less with vibration and more with the joint's exposure to the elements. I would guess that joints fully sealed in shrink tube are probably best crimped. This assumes the weatherproofing is perfectly reliable so that exposure to moisture is the same as in an aircraft hull. And I would also guess that joints that are so fretted over, are going to outlast the rest of the bike, and thus we should go with our favorite, make the connection, and get a life. ;D |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/17/11 at 19:55:42 Im happy o report Iv had zero failures of either type in so many years I cant remember,, do a good job & fageddabouddit.. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/17/11 at 20:58:17 Yeah, I agree, lets get a life ! I got bigger fish to fry,....like a rear tire replace ! |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/17/11 at 21:03:47 6D6278637F796A68606E790B0 wrote:
Soooo, you gonna solder it on? err splice it on? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 03:00:38 If you are letting discussions on crimp vs solder keep you from doing more productive things, then,..... YES,... get a life. If you just enjoy being here, going round and round with forum friends over various discussionable issues of interest, then, ... YES,.. post away!!! Ain't life great?! :) :D ;D 8-) ::) :) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by BobR on 07/18/11 at 05:12:23 I think I'll get my retired mechanic buddy to do it LOL. The plan is 2 lights hooked up to the brake light. I assume I just solder the wire to where the brake wire is connected to inside the light if I can. If I have to splice into the wire myself, I think I'll go with crimp, heat shrink and liquid tape. Routy, now you can replace your rear tire. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by runrun on 07/18/11 at 06:06:25 great alternatives to both solder and crimping are posi-lock connectors. you can't get an easier tapping method than than a posi-tap. their only drawback is that they're bulkier than a nice shrink-wrapped crimp or solder joint. i've had some in use for 5 years and am really happy with them, and the folks at webbikeworld think highly of them too. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/18/11 at 06:37:38 6B747275686F5E6E5E66747833010 wrote:
Soooo, you gonna solder it on? err splice it on?[/quote] Decisions decisions,.....now I have to give that some thought,......always a curve thrown into everything ! Life is good, yes, but can't it ever be simple ?? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by bill67 on 07/18/11 at 06:42:59 Put some liquid tape on the tread and you'll get a few extra miles out of that rear tire :) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/18/11 at 08:03:03 Theres another way to go,......thats whats so nice here,.....so many ideas,.....so many ways to go. It can't never simple ! |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/11 at 11:19:17 Now gentlemen, Each of you take your favorite tool in your right hand. Take the left hand of the person you are disagreeing with and apply your tool to his little finger on his left hand at about the first joint. The first one to flinch or squeal loses the argument. ============= Me, I like interlaced or twisted wires, solder it, fold it over and apply two layers of heat shrink tubing well shrunk with a hair dryer. Winds up just being a little bump in the wire. Then I take rubberized cloth tape (old school wiring harness covering tape) and extend the wiring harness proper to hide my joints forever. I also like to lightly crimp on a terminal with a crimper, then I hit the fray end past the crimp with the soldering gun to block off all moisture/air by wicking solder back through the crimp and up the wire a bit. ;D Overkill, that's my philosophy .... |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by bill67 on 07/18/11 at 11:28:00 What brand of hair dryer do you use. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/11 at 11:31:48 Seriously, Amp style crimp connectors are perfectly sound when correctly applied and back up with a crimp height measurement, a millivolt drop test and destructive pull test that is done on good sampling plan basis. Production crimps are reliable as anything if done correctly. Having worked in that industry and having set up the quality control crimp height gaging systems, millivolt tests and pull test systems and the SPC controls over each element of each crimped connector -- me, I over-solder my crimps that I do on an ad hoc basis by a simple hand held crimper. I don't have to be perfect on the crimp, as a matter of fact I tend to crimp a little loose on purpose so as not to crush cut or compression stretch the wires any. Ever had a crimp "fatigue" the wire in half and fall off the end of the cable for no good reason? ;) Bill, I worked for Black and Decker for 25 years, what brand do you think I have? Black & Decker bought a good big chunk the of GE Appliance business when I was there and B&D was making GE dryers in Taiwan as part of that business chunk. They kept the GE brand name on it as the B&D marked same item got complaints from women that it was "too strong" and burned their hair. Got them mixed up with the B&D paint stripper heat guns? Who knows? ;D |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 12:02:21 By the by, make sure you don't twist the wires before inserting into the terminal for crimping. You want the least amount of airspace inside the crimp. The inserted part of the wire should be as straight and compact as possible, with minimum size diff between the ID of the terminal and the OD of the inserted wire. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/18/11 at 12:38:45 Oldfeller, you and I are of the same mind. I also solder crimps and crimp terminals and I mostly use the crimp as a solder reservoir, and to hold the wires together while I solder, so I crimp loosely, for the very reason that crimping too tight damages the wire. If you have crimped it tight enough so as you are not able to pull it apart, you have damaged the wire. Gyro, it's OK to twist wires together to crimp as long if they are tightly twisted (there is a tool for that). That being said, proper soldering is time consuming, both in learning how to do it properly (it took me a year at least) and actually doing it, compared to crimping. One last point: a hair dryer does not make enough heat to shrink heat shrink tubing properly. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/18/11 at 13:00:12 Where did you guys do all this soldering ? Show me a commercial made anything that has even 1 drop of solder on any terminal, other than any place like a small switch etc where crimping it not possible. Good God Gerti, we're not talking which is better or worse, we're talking what works !! And crimping only works,...and has for 75 years ! And who that has a life would haggle over whether to twist a wire or not ? Gheeeeeeesch ! ::) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/18/11 at 13:01:54 6E617B607C7A696B636D7A080 wrote:
Soldering is not used commercially very much outside of printed circuit boards because it is too time consuming. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 13:09:37 222929202C232238394D0 wrote:
Let's just agree you have a completely different mindset on soldering. Your mindset differs from the established/recommended procedures used by those upon whose work millions of lives depend. You think soldering is the cat's meow,... those of us working in aviation know different. Sure it's okay to twist the wires before crimping. It's also okay to twist the bare ends of a couple of wires together and wrap a lot of electrical tape around the joint. 90% of the time you'll never know the diff. It's just better, before crimping, to keep them compact and straight. The joint holds better and is more resistant to fatigue if they are crimped when straight. I wonder where you come up with THESE kinds of statements: "If you have crimped it tight enough so as you are not able to pull it apart, you have damaged the wire." This is food processed by male cattle. Think about it. If this were true the entire aircraft industry would either have damaged wires or wires pulling out of terminals. That said, who really cares all that much? A good crimp will hold for a long long time. A good solder joint will hold for a long time. Both will probably hold well past the point where the cam chain tensioner lets go, trashes the motor and we junk the bike,.. completely oblivious to its ratio of crimped vs soldered joints. I suppose you feel swaging should be abandoned as a procedure as well, eh? (Lest we interpret a "tone" that is not there, let me remind everyone about the twinkle in the eye.) ;) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/18/11 at 13:15:07 Quote: "If you have crimped it tight enough so as you are not able to pull it apart, you have damaged the wire." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to agree,.....a statement like that has to be the winner. This thread should close on that one ! Nuff said ???? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 13:17:11 303F253E222437353D3324560 wrote:
You are remarking about the humor in his statement, right? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/18/11 at 13:18:19 Gyro- please explain "food processed by male cattle"- I don't understand what being male has to do with it. ;) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 13:19:54 4D46464F434C4D5756220 wrote:
What is the typical term for male cattle? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/18/11 at 13:23:30 From a fertilizer point of view, Id say theres no difference in male or female bovine feacal material, but, colloquially, Bull Sh1t just carries more "Punch" that Cow Crap. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/18/11 at 13:26:50 1628233E333E33510 wrote:
What is the typical term for male cattle?[/quote] Neutered or not? ;) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Gyrobob on 07/18/11 at 15:40:11 7E75757C707F7E6465110 wrote:
What is the typical term for male cattle?[/quote] Neutered or not? ;)[/quote] Ah,... yes,.. it does matter. Not neutered. The term "steerpoop" just doesn't have the same impact, does it!!? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/11 at 16:40:07 Routy and Arty are correct that production light amperage crimp jobs using Amp applicators in an Amp crimping machine backed up by all the appropriate statistical controls used by the automotive and aerospace industry (including a full level 3 PPAP with all capability studies and all 17 sections of dedicated process information) are as rugged and reliable as can be. This is most of your electrical connections. Amp termination equipment used properly makes a darn fine electrical connection. 'sa fact !! BTW, Amp sez don't twist the wire before putting it in a crimp -- wires get thinned where they cross over each other and get mashed into each other creating deformation zones. Crimped wires should lay parallel to each other for max integrity and greatest conductive contact after correct crimping height is applied. Where the rolled over crimp edges roll back into the wire mass tends to cut into the twisted crossed over wires the most creating the worst problems. =========== What you sometimes might do with a hand crimper to your personally edjumacated eyeball/grip judgment is something else. Most hand crimp jobs tend to be a bit too tight and do both squeeze them little wires down a bit and can slightly pinch the wires at the entry end of the crimp. =========== Yes, solder isn't a production level process much any more except in automotive starter brushes which have to withstand hell for high current loads and resistive heating. Then the old fashioned crimp and solder is standard, not optional. It is the most rugged, least resistance, most heat resistant and generally all round best connection between wire and screwed down termination that exists. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Now, do you strip and bend a hook then use the side screws on your electrical wall socket and light switch connections, or do you strip and jam it in straight under the screw head or do you strip and poke into the little one way grippy holes? Don't ferget to tell us why you have that preference ..... And please don't tell us what the pros do, that's why we are having to go back and replace all them electrical fixtures in the first durn place. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by arteacher on 07/18/11 at 18:49:40 Strip and bend to a hook and install with the hook turning the same way as the screw tightens so it will not be forced open. Do I pass? And what you say about twisting makes sense- I stand corrected. And don't forget that rectifier diodes are soldered as well, for the same reason as the starter brushes. |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Sunchasers on 07/18/11 at 21:41:08 796578607D687F6E616263680D0 wrote:
+1 I have used dielectric grease spairingly on all my wire connectors and battery connections for years and never had a problem with corrosion. :) |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/18/11 at 21:57:08 And please don't tell us what the pros do, that's why we are having to go back and replace all them electrical fixtures in the first durn place. Well, BLAST,,, I started off doing the strip & bend a hook, then several people told me to just poke it in the back,, save time AND It works Just as Good. Now. youre tellin me it isnt? |
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Title: Re: splicing wires Post by Routy on 07/19/11 at 06:32:37 Using 12 ga wire, you got no choice but to hook it, because the push holes are sized for 14 ga....15 amp max,......because the push terminals are meant to be used on a single plug only,.......like the last one on a multi plug circuit. Any plug used to pass the juice on to the next plug MUST be "hooked".....so says most codes. Like I ain't never drilled out the plastic holes so I could shove a 12 ga into it ::) Yeah,......like nobody but me knew all this ;D |
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