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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1307823102 Message started by Z on 06/11/11 at 13:11:42 |
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Title: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/11/11 at 13:11:42 Bike has been running great. No problems at all. Today, on my way home from work, she just died. >:( No sputtering, no stalling no nothing. Just. Died. It was like I flipped the kill switch or turned the key off. >:( WTH!!!!!!! I tried starting her back up. Nothing. I double checked the gas. I have plenty-over half a tank. I switched to reserve just to try it. Nothing. I switched it to Prime and tried. After a couple of tries, she FINALLY started. :o I managed to get her home and she died again in the driveway. >:(This time she started right back(still in Prime) up but sputtered. I got her in the garage and CRANKED the throttle!! Roared just fine. Shut her off and BANG-the usual pop. WTH could be wrong with her now?!?!? >:( The husband started her up after I came in B!tching about it and (of course) she started right up for him and ran with no problems. >:( |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by TheSnakeLady on 06/11/11 at 15:21:33 Did you check your vaccume line? Check the connection and look for holes, slits, cracks... anything like that. If it isn't that than you may need to do a thorough carb cleaning (something might be clogged). Hope this helps! |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/11 at 15:34:54 yep, which to prime, remember to let it sit for a minute and let the bowl fill back up. 1st thing to do when you notice any balkiness is switch to prime. If it runs ok then switch to reserve. If it gets balky again, that'll tell you right away whether the vac line needs replacing. You just added a fuel filter? Take a peek, look ok? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/11/11 at 16:07:01 I checked the filter when I got on the bike to leave and it was full. I didn't think to check it after she died. I was more concerned with getting going and getting home. I checked it after I got home (and had been running on Prime) and it was full. It is full right now too. It is running fine (at least idling in the garage fine) now as well. :-/ Maybe it was just a hiccup in the line but wouldn't the filter stop that from happening? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/11/11 at 17:19:28 ;D hee hee .... nothing can stop a cancerous pustulent petcock from hassling you, except total vacuum petcock cauterization and a full raptorization of the resulting hole. ;) .... and from the sounds of it you are about ready to take your pocket knife out and go to whittling. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/11 at 17:37:19 vacuum petcock castration WHOAAA!!!,, I actually recoiled at the sight of the words,,,, ease Up there, dude,, its much easier on people like me to see Suggestions of removing/replacing a petcock in more mechanical terms, rather than biological terms,, & of course, no request would be complete ( on the internet) w/o at least an implied threat, so, consider yersef threatened, with whatever you most fear, & in abundant supply,, Edit to add GRRRR! Wheres my skull & crossbones emoticon? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/11/11 at 17:57:13 What, you haven't ever considered doing a quick Lorana Bobbit on a malfunctioning vaccum petcock? Not even a little bitty lighter fluid special? :o If not, then jest wait a while until the symptoms get a little worse and you get your butt stalled in traffic on a busy 4 lane street because the little sucker won't give you any gas when you want/need it .... Then the Capt. Jack Sparrow/Johny Depp/Edward Scissorhand that exists in all of us jest comes a bubbling up to the top and we want to go all psycho clippy clippy on its little irritating butt and then ram it down the mouth of a cannon over a double load of powder and light the bloody fuse .... KERBOOM !! Away with ye, ye miserable piece of excrement, and good riddance to ya !! :D :D :D I understand how she feels, been there and done that. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/11 at 18:04:14 EAUX! You Brute, you! |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/11/11 at 18:16:11 I was on the four lane! :o Thankfully it wasn't busy so I could just about stop to pull off in the only available place (which happens to have a 2 inch high curb :() I am seriously considering ordering a raptor petcock. The husband isn't convinced that it's necessary but his bike isn't the one dying on him!! >:( How hard are they to install? I'm sure if I went out there and started messing around with it, he would have to come "rescue" me from myself. ::)The only thing I have ever done with the bike is change the oil and filter. He put the fuel filter on and cleaned the petcock. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/11 at 18:18:34 Test the petcock, |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by bill67 on 06/11/11 at 19:08:16 If you take that extra filter off it will probably be ok,You don't need it. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by thumperclone on 06/11/11 at 20:25:47 heel hit the side stand |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/12/11 at 02:06:52 Seriously, if your bike keeps dying on the four lane at full speed and you can see that the clear fuel filter bowl is empty (no gas) that slowly recovers when you stop then you may well have a stiff diaphragm condition on your petcock. You could also have a dirty petcock filter, bad vac hose, and a half dozen other vac petcock related things going on that all can combine to give you "the condition". On the Savage engine we know vac suction goes down a little bit at full speed and a stiff diaphragm (or all the rest of these petcock thingies) will combine with that to occasionally fuel starve you on the full speed runs. This is just one of many vac petcock illness scenarios -- you can fight them one by one by replacing vac hoses, using clamps etc (which all attempt to coax the petcock to work a little bit better for a short period of time). You can keep on struggling along for years and years, rebuilding it and replacing hoses, etc. questioning your jetting and stuff like that. Aggravating stuff. Problem is, the diaphragm gets yet stiffer with age and then it finally cracks and starts leaking fuel then you get a whole new host of new contradictory funny acting symptoms to deal with. Mod boys with high performance engines very quickly learn that the stock petcock CANNOT flow enough gas to feed their high performance engines on full speed runs -- we live in the world were the petcock really shows itself as a very clear troublemaker. After a while, our Johnny Depp comes out and we stuff the durn thing down the mouth of the cannon and we see how far away the splash comes when we finally send the durn thing off to Davie Jones locker. :D :D :D Now, how long will you put up with it until your Lorana comes bubbling up and you go all snicker-snack on it? A Raptor replacement STOPS ALL THE NONSENSE FOREVER ... it just works, flowing a whole lot of gas when you need it. jest ask yer hubby if he loves you .... |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/12/11 at 08:42:48 I think he is considering it now. :) Do you have any links on where to buy them? I have found different ones online but there is a HUGE disparity in prices. From $14 up to $72. What's the difference & what is a good thing to use? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/12/11 at 09:41:11 There are several Raptors that can work, but I can vouch for this one (mine). http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687/Criteria/5LP-24500-01-00&adv=5&kw=fiche.ronayers.com |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/12/11 at 10:10:02 17343C3E3D34343D2A580 wrote:
[smiley=dankk2.gif] Just ordered one. If it helps my bike, then we will order another for his bike. I'll probably be on to ask a million questions when I try to change it out. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/11 at 10:58:41 Its EEEEEzzeee,,, get a gas can, pop the fuel line off the carb, point it into the gas can,, I put mine up on a stool, so I dont hafta hold it. Put it on PRIME, & let er run dry,, then take the vac line off, plug it where it goes to the carb. Remove the petcock from the tank, put the Raptor in, hook the fuel line up, PUT the gas BACK in the tank,, turn the Raptor On,,, & Fire that mutha UP... |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/12/11 at 11:30:19 It is as easy as Justin says it is, pretty much as easy as taking the gas tank off to do it. Purty durn easy in other words .... You will need a little rubber nipple cover to go over the hollow spud on the side of the carburetor, but hubby likely has that already (or knows where his favorite auto parts store is). Now, the question becomes if it is so easy to NOT HAVE THE HASSLES EVER AGAIN why are the rest of youse guys troubleshooting and fixing, troubleshooting and fixing, troubleshooting and fixing ..... ...... stubborn, I guess |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by verslagen1 on 06/12/11 at 11:57:52 4C6F6765666F6F6671030 wrote:
With a new diaphragm in there, I know it's either the vac line or I forgot to fill it again. 999 times out of 1000 it's time to fill it again. http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/orange_smileys/87.gif |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/12/11 at 13:16:17 Here's a pic of my inline filter-full of gas. http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy323/Zaney1/Bikes/DSC01308.jpg |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/12/11 at 13:35:23 Ah, listen to what the man said ..... (I like that old song, BTW) He's replaced his diaphragm once already, so he is just having to replace his vac line now periodically. So, he's still messing with it .... .... or allowing it to mess with him. depends on how you look at it I guess |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by verslagen1 on 06/12/11 at 14:18:07 Still running the stock carb? big ol' rubber diaphragm in there too. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/12/11 at 15:03:22 6D7E6968777A7C7E752A1B0 wrote:
Ummmm........yes?? I guess???? :-/ I honestly have no idea. It is what it is when we bought it. We have only switched out the mirrors and added the inline filter. It had the Jardine muffler when we bought it. I know the paint was custom but I don't know if the previous owner did anything else to it. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by verslagen1 on 06/12/11 at 15:49:18 5C060 wrote:
Ummmm........yes?? I guess???? :-/ I honestly have no idea. It is what it is when we bought it. We have only switched out the mirrors and added the inline filter. It had the Jardine muffler when we bought it. I know the paint was custom but I don't know if the previous owner did anything else to it. [/quote] Sorry, was pokin' fun at OF and his fear of diaphragms. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 05:35:40 Shoot, I never figured out where to put it. Balloon man, myself. ;D Seriously, if I had to articulate my objections to the stock vac petcock in a more normal rational fashion it would go like this: Suzuki grabbed a stock part from the Japanese motorcycle industry and used it on the Big Single. This is the same petcock found elsewhere on Jap bikes of that same development time span ... They used what was available. First, the Big Single has a vacuum loss at full speed that I am not sure is reflected by in line fours and v twins. This vacuum loss makes the stock petcock not work reliably at full speed once it gets some age on it. The marginal vacuum situation on our bike fuels about half the known petcock issues -- rubber failures account for the rest. Second, the petcock by itself is a source of variation and failure on the same order of magnitude as the rest of the Savage's electrical and carburetor system combined. At least half of the carb/electrical issues reported by newbies turn out to be (or to be aggravated by) vac petcock issues. Yes, you can fix the petcock -- the repair methods are understood. But why should you? If someone had identified a BETTER GRADE of vac petcock that did not have all these line cracking, flapper stiffening, pin hole leaking issues then we would have something else to talk about. Nobody has, instead we found the Raptor pure mechanical petcock that costs almost exactly the same thing as a vac petcock repair kit. Now, here is food for further discussion. We have a lot of Raptors in use now. We really do, check here for an old poll http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1286789339 Now the vac petcock proponents keep saying somebody is gonna fill their crankcase up with gas by leaving the mechanical petcock on. So far this hasn't been an issue yet, and indeed the lax among us haven't been turning the petcock off religiously either (got lazy). Indeed, the vast majority of the rare "gas in the oil" episodes have involved the stock vac petcock and I will not hazard a guess as to which of the several failure modes of the vac petcock was involved in these episodes as a split/cracked diaphragm readily comes to mind but I have no direct knowledge of these episodes to convey so I'd jest be guessin'. The Raptor mechanical has not shown any failure modes yet, it ages well and simply keeps on delivering gas reliably at all motor speeds. The vac petcock seems to have an age effect to it that would repeat on a rebuilt unit given equivalent age. Certainly the vac lines need periodic replacing (some do it every year as a matter of fact). =============== ;D Going back to normal mode, I will say that once you reach your Depp or Bobbitt point (depending on your gender) the deep satisfaction you get from bouncing the stock petcock off a brick wall repeatedly (and then shooting it a couple of times and stuffing the fragments down the barrel of a cannon to be fired far far out into the ocean) is very real and quantifiable. IF YOU ARE SO DURN CERTAIN ABOUT REBUILT VAC PETCOCKS being such a good deal, then do an exchange rebuild service for the same price as a Raptor (give it a 10 year warranty too). Heck, shipping the vac petcock both ways for the rebuild service would cost as much as the Raptor does .... evil ;D PS Carb diaphragm in the top of the carb isn't sitting in liquid gasoline and alcohol and all the fuel additives that are trying to dissolve it all the time, it only gets exposed to engine vapors on the suck side and whatever gas vapors/mists make it up past the slide going against all the venturi driven suction that is telling it to "go the other way". So, carb rubber lives in a relatively dry non-dissolving world but yes, given enough time the carb diaphragms fail too. At $129 each, let's all be thankful the durn things last as long as they do !!! ;D .... is this a declared petcock war, or are we just misbehaving again? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Routy on 06/13/11 at 07:04:22 I just don't get it !! In her very first post, she said that switching to prime DID NOT fix the problem. To me that leaves the fact that the problem is some where other than the vacuum operated petcock, or the vacuum line going to it. If the fuel filter is staying full when it dies, the problem is downstream from there,....pointing straight at a "problem in the carburator" Now you guys talked her into a Raptor, and the hastle of installing it, only to have it still do the same thing,.....I am already feeling for the prolonged frustration she will be having :'( But then,.....maybe its me that is loosing it ::) |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/13/11 at 07:09:48 5F504A514D4B585A525C4B390 wrote:
In her very first post, she said that switching to prime DID NOT fix the problem. Wuhhhh?I missed that,, |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Boofer on 06/13/11 at 07:12:09 Personally, I would (and did) get rid of the spring hose clamps. They are ok for vacuum lines, but I much prefer the hose clamps that can be tightened with a screwdriver. Just sayin... |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Routy on 06/13/11 at 07:19:50 5A5154540E0F380 wrote:
Yes, taking that new filter off will fix it ::) And right, you have a tank w/ dirt in the bottom, that will go right thru the petcock screen, so you don't need no fine paper filter to take all the dirt out before it hits the carburator ! |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by bill67 on 06/13/11 at 08:25:14 In 40 years and a lot of motorcycle the pet thingy never went bad.In motorcycles snowmobile and lot of construction motors, lawn mowers,and I've never added a extra fuel filter.When you mess with the engines that were designed by engineers not back yard grease monkeys you are asking for trouble. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Boule’tard on 06/13/11 at 09:31:19 7D7268736F697A78707E691B0 wrote:
Not necessarily. Just because the petcock flows enough gas to keep the carb full does not "point straight to a problem with the carburator." The vacuum line (that the petcock requires) could have a leak in it, causing the bike to run lean to the point of dying out. A hole in the petcock diaphragm could let gas flow through the vacuum line, causing the bike to run rich to the point of dying out. A manual petcock eliminates both of these modes of failure as well as the not-flowing-gas problem, and is a worthwhile mod even if it does not cure Z's problem. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Z on 06/13/11 at 10:08:53 Wow. :o Who'd have thought that my running/not running issues would cause such an uproar. :-[ I look at it this way. The fuel filter cost me about $5. The raptor petcock cost me $20. We can install it ourselves. If it solves the problem-GREAT! If it doesn't, then I move onto the next step which will be be spending round about $150+ to have someone tear apart the carb, clean it and put it back together again. God knows when I would get my bike back but I absolutely do NOT have the knowledge to do it and my husband has already said he won't b/c he doesn't know enough. The filter and the raptor petcock aren't going to hurt the bike so it's not like it's wasted money. If the raptor petcock solves the problem then I saved myself $150+ and missed riding time. I am willing to try the baby steps first. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 12:50:41 Z -- Give you a happy thought -- your carb knows how to work just fine most all of the time. The fact the "die thing" happens at a use point that coincides with a known vac petcock failure mode and the system recovers exactly like a known vac petcock failure mode is happenstance -- until the Raptor replacement makes it go away. Routy, what carb failure are you thinking about that comes and goes like a fuel starvation? Bill, are you "volunteering" for yet another war? ============================== Z, when we all get nice and bored we sometimes dust off old arguments and try to make the last "whatever" war come out differently. As the innocent that "asked the question" just don't take any of the ordinance usage that follows to heart as we commonly shoot firearms, blast mortars, shoot ground to air missiles, drop bombs and use flamethrowers and machine guns during these little wars. Nobody is going to be shooting towards you (unless you happen to stand behind Bill). =========================== Sacrilegious statement based on person experience: eeeek !! :o Running on prime on a vac petcock doesn't always work. On mine, prime would not instantly refill the filter and the bowl -- I had to pull off the road, cut the ignition off, fiddle between prime and reserve and wait about 3-5 minutes until I got a full filter which at least told me a full bowl was down there at the bottom. Gas trickled back into the system with the stock vac unit (it jest doesn't work very well when it gets old and sick). And yes, I had cleaned my filter screens and my cap didn't vapor lock the tank 'cause I'd open it to see if it would help things along any. With a Raptor, you only see a lack of fuel in the filter when you run low on gas and have to switch to Reserve -- and then it gushes back into the filter in 5-7 seconds to a full bowl and filter. You don't have to stop the bike, it will recover from the stumble state just that fast. Bill, are you saying you have never worked on anything you had ever owned and it always ran fine until you went and got another one? Well, that's consistent anyway. NOTE: A second annual petcock war is declared by willing participants |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by babyhog on 06/13/11 at 12:58:37 Oldfeller, what is up with you? I am truly HURT! You weren't nearly as nice to me when I was a newcomer as you have been to Z. But luckily I learned to luv ya anyway. ;) Good luck Z. These guys will have you running in circles, wondering which way is left and which is right. But they don't leave too many stones unturned, so a solution is usually found... eventually. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 13:06:39 Babyhog, you were always nice so I was nice to you (until we caught you sneakin' around the bushes outside our camp fire up on the Dragon Run taking pictures of what we were up to so as to document all our dubious shenanigans) Are you coming up this year? I am still attempting to get off, but not any luck so far. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by babyhog on 06/13/11 at 13:14:42 Would love to come to Dragon, but I don't have enough vacation time... or money... but one of these years... |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Routy on 06/13/11 at 19:15:06 Quote: Routy, what carb failure are you thinking about that comes and goes like a fuel starvation? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suspect there is a chunk a junk in the bowl of her carb that is getting in front of a jet, causing it to die. As soon as it dies, the suction stops, letting the chunk float away,.......but,.. only till it happens again. Don't even think that this has not happened to me several times in my many years. Sometimes it happens in the tank, and sometimes it happens in the carb bowl. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 20:59:26 Been my luck that chunks of junk that are big enough to block a jet tend to get jammed in there until carb was torn apart and the blockage was forceably removed. Never saw one come and go on its own -- must be made of cork, huh? Floats up high on top of the gas, then when the vac petcock gas supply gets low the fuel level drops and then the jet grabs on to the little piece of cork and sucks it down into the jet and the bike dies on you .... (always on a 4 lane after a bout of full speed running) Then while you stop and fiddle with the Prime and such, the vac petcock dribbles in enough gas to fill the bowl up some and the piece of cork jest floats free up on top of the rising gas pool again, freeing up the jet to act normal for a while. Sounds all nice and reasonable -- to Bill anyway. Bill, would Seafoam dissolve this little piece of floating cork? ;D ;D ;D Heck, I betcha when you put the Raptor on the gas tank that little mythical piece of cork jest stays up high on top of the never dropping never low gas pool and it gives you no more trouble ever again. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 21:08:46 Bill, a serious question. Why won't Sea Foam fix a vac petcock diaphragm? The Sea Foam is in contact with the diaphragm for the entire time -- why doesn't the magic sparkles fixate the bad/ugly and HEAL it? |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Routy on 06/14/11 at 07:02:18 Quote: must be made of cork, huh? ------------------------------------------------- Actually no,......I believe any thing that floats wouldn't give any problem, because the jets are in the lower part of the carb bowl. I remember a ring of silicone in a gas tank, (looked like it fell off a drain plug that had silicone put on it) left my daughter stranded on the freeway several times, (never in town) but she always managed to get it going again. It drove me insane,....almost sold the car,.....till I bit it one day and did the only thing there was left to do,.... dropped the tank ! I lived and learned. |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/14/11 at 07:16:11 Bill, will Seafoam dissolve floating/sinking silicone? I guess this all assumes Mr. Z didn't drop the bowl to clean out all the crap after putting in the paper filter rig to keep the crap from ever reaching the bowl again. Mebbe he will stop and tell us so we can refine our assumptions a bit. Them ugly gol durn ASSumptions, they wind up killing me every durn time. Seems like I would learn. :( Jest ask Babyhog ... she's done caught me ASSuming before. ;D |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by bill67 on 06/14/11 at 08:45:50 I don't believe so I never tried Sea Foam on cork or silicone,Sea Foam is made to clean metal.If you use a cork bobber for fishing you might get some Sea Foam on it. ;D |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by weracerc on 06/14/11 at 10:18:44 here is where i got mine - works great installed in less than 20 minutes from drain the tank to running again. http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/1-all-products?q=5LP-24500-01-00 |
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Title: Re: Grrrrrrrr Dang nab it!!!!!! Post by Oldfeller on 06/14/11 at 10:56:28 Tell us, what issues did you have and did the Raptor remove them? |
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