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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> transmission problem /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1307386124 Message started by serenity3743 on 06/06/11 at 11:48:44 |
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Title: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/06/11 at 11:48:44 This may be a problem that hasn't been posted before. About a month ago, I noticed a scraping/chirping/ticking sound at the lower left side which seemed to correspond with the rotation of the rear wheel and/or drivebelt. I never could pin down where it was; ruled out the loose-front-pulley problem, and found nothing that the belt or rear tire was rubbing against. The noise finally went away, but apparently the root problem did not >:( . So Saturday I was out for a joy ride around my community. At an intersection where I was pulling on to a county road, the bike acted like I had "missed a shift" (Savage riders know what I'm talking about)between neutral and first. I verified that it was in first gear, let off on the clutch lever and got no propulsion. I turned it around and coasted down the hill to a pull-over on the side of the road. In experimenting with shifting while sitting still, I noticed that the shifter will go through all the gears, 1 through 5; and that when I give it a little throttle in each, the speedometer registers just as if I were going down the road; but of course I'm sitting still. My shrewd deduction tells me that there is still linkage from the shift peg all the way through the transmission (shaft?) to the speedometer cable connection. But seems like there must be a drive gear and a driven gear not making contact between the transmission and the primary drive (the one which rotates the front pulley). Does my deduction make sense? Does anyone have experience with this problem? If so, am I correct that I will have to split the crankcase to make this repair? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/06/11 at 12:32:43 It could be soooo many things, some inside the cases -- some not. Is the nut on the clutch basket fully tightened? Anything that would push in on the clutch rod and disengage the clutch pack would give similar symptoms (busted/jammed eccentric). Baring anything clutch related or the little shifter linkage gear box related, then you are going inside the cases on a hunt and see ..... |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/06/11 at 13:17:52 I can tell that the clutch disengages and engages, because it is at regular idle with the clutch lever pulled in (disengaged), and the speedometer registers acceleration and deceleration with the clutch lever out (engaged) and the throttle applied. So does that mean anything? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/11 at 18:56:41 You DO still have a belt on it,, right? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Boofer on 06/06/11 at 19:57:14 I have always called the pulley shaft the countershaft, but I think Clymer's calls it the main shaft. Anyway, it could have a broken gear or the throw-out bearing (release plate) could be worn out. Other than that the shaft could be broken into (I've seen it on outboard motors.), or the pulley may be worn out on the shaft. Notice only the brave or foolhardy have commented on this. Not sure what category I fit into. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/11 at 21:25:04 The trans is spinning, or the speedo wouldnt register, so, the pulley that is sposed to make the belt go 'round & round aint a turnin, o, you need to look at the shaft & see if its spinning. If not, why not? Put it in gear & roll it. engin off & see what it sounds like. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/06/11 at 22:03:14 Serenity has the most interesting engine things happen to him, really. That speedo take off gear is on the other end of the output shaft (the one that is connected to the belt pulley) If he can rev up his speedo, why ain't his pulley spinning? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/11 at 22:10:44 If he can rev up his speedo, why ain't his pulley spinning? Hekk, man,, I dunno,, Ive wondered the same about me. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by verslagen1 on 06/06/11 at 22:16:47 If the speedo is turning than the main or pulley shaft is turning. either you've lost your splines or that shaft is sheared. baaaaa! |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/11 at 01:47:02 150611100F0204060D52630 wrote:
Which is why I told him to put it in gear & roll it. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/07/11 at 05:13:20 3C2325223F3809390931232F64560 wrote:
Yep. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/07/11 at 05:17:26 617E787F62655464546C7E72390B0 wrote:
The bike will roll while in gear with clutch engaged (lever out), and it makes a minor grinding or growling sound. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/07/11 at 05:20:00 70535B595A53535A4D3F0 wrote:
I KNOW. RIGHT??!! It's what makes me an extinguished gentleman. :D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/07/11 at 05:21:10 5E4D5A5B44494F4D4619280 wrote:
Hold it, pardner! Are you callin me "splineless"? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by verslagen1 on 06/07/11 at 07:16:44 382E392E25223F32787C7F784B0 wrote:
Hold it, pardner! Are you callin me "splineless"?[/quote] Or flocked! ;D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/11 at 18:15:10 6C7A6D7A71766B662C282B2C1F0 wrote:
The bike will roll while in gear with clutch engaged (lever out), and it makes a minor grinding or growling sound.[/quote] Then you need to find where that sound is coming from.. Id pull the guard off the front pulley & see whats in there.. Hopefuly the shaft is spinning in the pulley,, |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/07/11 at 21:01:54 I think he's got it all figured out fairly well, Justin, as his choices are: 1) totally shafted and sheared off short, 2) totally spineless 3) or if he is jest plain lucky he's jest got him a wallowed out hole in the center of his driven pulley. ;D ;D ;D Me, I have faith in Serenity and him having found option #4 -- the infamous something new and unexpected ..... |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/08/11 at 04:45:09 293630372A2D1C2C1C24363A71430 wrote:
The bike will roll while in gear with clutch engaged (lever out), and it makes a minor grinding or growling sound.[/quote] Then you need to find where that sound is coming from.. Id pull the guard off the front pulley & see whats in there.. Hopefuly the shaft is spinning in the pulley,, [/quote] Okay, I will check this option. Thanks, Justin. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/08/11 at 04:47:40 6340484A494040495E2C0 wrote:
I do my best to keep you old-timer mechanics thinking and pondering. It's a good prevention for Alzheimer's! :D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/09/11 at 04:58:45 The prize for best long distance remote diagnostication goes to: (DRUM ROLL PLEASE) Justin O Guy2 for his interpretation of the so-called transmission problem. It turned out to be the shaft spinning inside the front pulley, presumably because the cogs that are supposed to prevent the pulley from slipping are worn down. I won't know for sure if the wear is in the hole of the pulley or if it's the shaft itself until I get the pulley off. Which leads to my next question. In lieu of starting a new thread, I need suggestions how to get the nut off the pulley, given the fact that there is not a readily available way to hold the shaft while turning the nut. Would an air impact wrench do the job? I think I can find one to borrow. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by BuckHMCC on 06/09/11 at 06:17:44 Exactly the same symptoms occurred with my '96 Savage at 14K miles. The cause was that the nut securing the drive pulley to the transmission output shaft had become loose despite the lock washer being bent against one of the nut's flats. The free play of the cogged pulley against the splined shaft caused the cogs on the pulley to strip. I regard this as a design flaw, but at least the engineers specified a harder grade for the shaft than the pulley, so most of the damage was to the pulley. When I replaced the pulley with a new one I applied Loctite 660 Retaining Compound to splines. This Loctite is specifically designed for shaft repairs. I torqued the nut to specs and bent the edge of a new lock washer against one of the nut's flats. That was 3K miles ago and all is holding. I removed the nut with an electric impact wrench and put it on with a manual beam bar torque wrench. To gain resistance put the bike in gear (I used 2nd), put a socket and breaker bar on the pulley nut, and determine which way the bike wants to go when you rotate the nut. Then block the rear wheel with a 4"x4" wooden block to prevent that motion. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/09/11 at 06:39:53 Serenity's issue is that his pulley and shaft are completely stripped. Stopping the pulley by wheel locking doesn't transmit very much resistance to the shaft any more, it is all stripped out and free wheeling. The nut is on the shaft, but the nut is tightened against the pulley. Since the pulley is free wheeling now, some wear has taken place on the pulley faces and perhaps the nut isn't going to be very tight now on anything once you get the washer flattened again? ============================== If playing lock the wheel and zap the impact wrench doesn't work, then you will have to drop the right case and try to jam the clutch gears -- and then you will only get the resistance the clutch pack can support without slipping. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/11 at 06:43:40 Step 1, get the washer flattened out good. The nut shouldnt actually be torqued any more, since the pulley i spinning on the shaft freely, so, in 1st gear, the impact otta just spin it off,, seems to me you should be able to spin it off with a ratchet easy enough, but, ya never know till ya get in there. & as for me bein some kinda long distance diagnostician,, I read others posts & they were leadin ya there, just in a different way,, Im no guru here,, plenty others are. We're all just glad the dang shaft isnt busted.. I wouldnt worry too much about the shaft being hurt, the pulley is much softer & even if the shaft is somewhat damaged, a new pulley & some good epoxy & you wont be in that engine.. I read OF's post,, & I see another option to popping a case. Might be a bad idea, IDK, but Id sure consider backing off the valve adjusters & setting the piston at 1/2 way down the stroke, to put the crank at 90* & filling the cylinder with oil. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by verslagen1 on 06/09/11 at 07:07:07 485E495E55524F42080C0F083B0 wrote:
Aiy, you splineless base terd you, I just knew you were flocked. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by babyhog on 06/09/11 at 07:11:38 I just hope his shaft is ok... |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/09/11 at 08:21:05 6360616C6E740D0 wrote:
Thanks, Babyhog, for your concern about my shaft.............. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/09/11 at 08:21:47 253621203F3234363D62530 wrote:
Aiy, you splineless base terd you, I just knew you were flocked.[/quote] ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by BuckHMCC on 06/09/11 at 09:13:17 Oh, I see the problem right now is getting the pulley off. Well, the pulley is a goner, so do whatever you need to stop its rotation and use an impact wrench to get the nut off. You could drill two holes through the pulley and put in bolts and then use a bar against the bolts to prevent its rotation. Or weld on two bolts to do the same. Even a plumbers strap wrench around it might work. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/09/11 at 10:24:43 It's the shaft that has to be held, not the pulley. The pulley splines are worn down and the shaft spins separate from the pulley now. I'm gonna try an air impact wrench on it either this evening or tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/09/11 at 16:01:18 Grab the pulley with whatever and try to tilt the pulley on the shaft to put whatever is left of your splines into a BIND condition. Then zap it with impact wrench while holding the side cocked bind with whatever big pliers/pipe wrench/crescent wrench you have that can grab on to the sides of the pulley (or mebbe even stick a wooden wedge in behind the pulley and the main case to get it to bind some). Don't bust anything ..... ;) |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/10/11 at 05:08:16 OK clever people .... Splined bushings exist -- somebody figure out what spline we have on our bikes and locate a splined bushing. Then we can collect worn out pulleys and get somebody to lathe them out and press then tack weld in a new center bushing (made of real steel no less). Why? Have you priced that small pulley lately? $83 plus shipping !!! .... and it will wear out again !! |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/10/11 at 05:22:17 I found a good one on eBay for $40 including shipping. I will try to salvage the old one for you to tinker with, Oldfeller. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/13/11 at 08:50:20 Here's what I did to get the nut off the shaft: With pulley and belt in place, I tightened the belt very tight to put binding pressure of the pulley upon the shaft. Then to keep the rear wheel from turning, I tightened the rear brake cable extremely tight as well. This immobilized the wheel and the shaft enough that I was able to loosen the nut. Okay, this is my first time posting pictures. Sorry they're so huge, but I wanted to show what I found when I got the pulley off the shaft. The pulley splines are completely gone. The shaft splines are damaged but I think they will have enough grip left. http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc385/serenity3743/pulley100_0209.jpghttp://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc385/serenity3743/shaft100_0208.jpg |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/13/11 at 08:56:00 yukk,, |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by verslagen1 on 06/13/11 at 09:02:23 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
double yukk! |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Boofer on 06/13/11 at 09:33:02 Serenity, there are many options between closed throttle and wide open throttle. You should give them a try. ;D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/13/11 at 10:29:16 7C5151585B4C3E0 wrote:
;D ;DWell, Boofer, believe it or not, I'm not a "wicker" as Oldfeller calls it. This was a problem that developed over a LONG period of time. Started maybe 2005 or 2006 (before I did an engine swap) when I had the "loose pulley nut" problem, tracked it down with help of a mechanic's free advice. But the pulley had already started to gradually wear some of the splines, and finally the last one musta sheared off a couple weeks ago. I think I shoulda replaced the pulley when I swapped the engine out. :-[ |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/13/11 at 10:30:06 0A2921232029292037450 wrote:
Oldfeller, do you want to tinker with the old pulley? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by babyhog on 06/13/11 at 11:26:38 Well, I must say I've seen better looking shafts than that... best of luck to you! ;D (sorry, couldn't resist) But seriously, what do you do next? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by bill67 on 06/13/11 at 11:43:55 What oil was you using? |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Oldfeller on 06/13/11 at 12:25:42 Klotz |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/13/11 at 13:45:14 7C77727228291E0 wrote:
I have been back and forth with oils: Suzuki brand both dino and synthetic, and also the diesel oil that Oldfeller likes (I forget the name). I would not classify this as an oil issue however, because it is the external part of the shaft where the front pulley attaches. It was a wear problem from some time ago. (See my reply to Boofer above) |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/13/11 at 13:49:01 767574797B61180 wrote:
Babyhog, evidently I didn't offend you with my earlier post, and I'm very glad of that!! Thanks for having a good sense of humor! Seriously, I'm hoping that there is enough of the spline on the shaft to work with a new/used pulley. If not, I might get the splines built up with a welder, but I really REALLY hope I don't have to do that. |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by babyhog on 06/13/11 at 16:42:17 372136212A2D303D77737077440 wrote:
Babyhog, evidently I didn't offend you with my earlier post, and I'm very glad of that!! Thanks for having a good sense of humor! Seriously, I'm hoping that there is enough of the spline on the shaft to work with a new/used pulley. If not, I might get the splines built up with a welder, but I really REALLY hope I don't have to do that.[/quote] That doesn't sound much fun at all. I hope the new/used one works for you. I know so little, but it looks pretty serious to me, so I'm sending my best wishes... Be sure to keep us posted... although, I have avoided saying this... you haven't been around much... that is UNTIL you have a big problem. haha (Of course you know I'm teasing, right) And offend me?? HAHA Tough to do, 'specially since I started it! ;) I was glad I didn't offend you! |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by bill67 on 06/13/11 at 16:52:39 485E495E55524F42080C0F083B0 wrote:
I have been back and forth with oils: Suzuki brand both dino and synthetic, and also the diesel oil that Oldfeller likes (I forget the name). I would not classify this as an oil issue however, because it is the external part of the shaft where the front pulley attaches. It was a wear problem from some time ago. (See my reply to Boofer above)[/quote] I know that had nothing to do with engine oil.I just wanted to wake up Oldfeller. :) |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by BuckHMCC on 06/13/11 at 21:26:02 [url]https://picasaweb.google.com/gmbhsg/SuzukiSavagePublic?authkey=Gv1sRgCIWagYOk0LqxwgE&feat=directlink[/url] Click on link above for a couple of photos.
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/14/11 at 04:50:50 474445484A50290 wrote:
Babyhog, evidently I didn't offend you with my earlier post, and I'm very glad of that!! Thanks for having a good sense of humor! Seriously, I'm hoping that there is enough of the spline on the shaft to work with a new/used pulley. If not, I might get the splines built up with a welder, but I really REALLY hope I don't have to do that.[/quote] That doesn't sound much fun at all. I hope the new/used one works for you. I know so little, but it looks pretty serious to me, so I'm sending my best wishes... Be sure to keep us posted... although, I have avoided saying this... you haven't been around much... that is UNTIL you have a big problem. haha (Of course you know I'm teasing, right) And offend me?? HAHA Tough to do, 'specially since I started it! ;) I was glad I didn't offend you! [/quote] I do lurk around here a good bit, and when I see a newbie with a problem I can help solve I try to do so. I keep up enough that I know you're planning to hide in the bushes at Deals Gap!! ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/14/11 at 04:54:28 794E5850737678783B0 wrote:
Well, believe it or not, the salvage pulley I bought went on the shaft very snugly, and I'm riding again because I put everything back together last night. I'm gonna keep a close eye on it, but I think it's good for a lotta miles and smiles. ;) ;) |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by Boofer on 06/14/11 at 12:15:00 Glad your're back on the road. Seven day forecast for the Tupelo area you used to live in is above 70 every night, and 95-98 every day with a 20% chance of rain. In other words, the old summer pattern of weather. Wait! I see a cloud. I'm going to go stand under it and hope the rain comes before the lightning. ;D |
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Title: Re: transmission problem Post by serenity3743 on 06/14/11 at 13:15:57 537E7E777463110 wrote:
Hey, I forgot that you live in one of my old stomping grounds!! That was B.S. - Before Savage. I bet it's hot down there!!!!!! Why don't you come on up to the Dragon week in the mountains? Should be a little bit cooler. |
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