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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> How low can I lean? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1306968886 Message started by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 15:54:46 |
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Title: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 15:54:46 I have a nice running 02 LS650P, and as my brazen nature has been emerging as I'm getting more comfortable riding, I find myself wondering how low can I lean. I know that prob breaks down into tire size and pressure, speed, arc degree of turn, weight...etc. My Question: Does reference material exist to address this curiosity, so I may enjoy faster...but safer :) lean angles on mod to high speed turns? Thanks as always. Great forum -dv |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by verslagen1 on 06/01/11 at 16:44:21 You can lean till the pegs scrape, after that you've on your own. 8-) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by babyhog on 06/01/11 at 16:49:26 2D3E2928373A3C3E356A5B0 wrote:
Exactly! We got lots of peg scrapers around here... ;) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 17:35:15 Ok so given a normal asphalt road, I can take a relatively sharp turn at whatever speed I can handle, and as long as the pegs don't scrape, I wont have to worry about the bottom sliding out on me? |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by babyhog on 06/01/11 at 17:43:49 "Shouldn't" come out from under you... but I would guess that would depend on your weight, tires, all that stuff you mention in the initial post.... Find a good banked curve and gradually take it faster and faster.... Geez, I can't believe I'm giving that advice. But if you contemplating how far, that seems to be the best way to try it... :-X |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by ero4444 on 06/01/11 at 18:14:21 "reference materials" - come on The Savage is a cruiser and you can't lean it as much as a sportbike without grinding down the cap nut under the right peg. I looked around to replace it (without checking a dealership) but these gigantic cap nuts are not easy to find. I wouldn't care except now I'm grinding the stud too. It makes the pegs look ratty which is OK - easy to find. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 19:36:03 Thanks for the info. I suppose that if official "reference materials" do not exist than one would only need to verse oneself in gyroscopic physics, as they apply to the ride variables (road, weight, tire size, speed..etc). This to me appears to be a practical tool. Ei: 350lb bike, 180lb Rider, a moderately tight "S" curve and the variable X indicating the maximum speed allowed in order to maintain grip fidelity. Savvy? I just want to have some idea of how fast I can approach a curve without losing my @ss. My pegs look brandnew..?? haha |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 19:40:16 Thanks bhog, that's usually my initial approach to most things like this. And no worries...was good advice. Thx -dv |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Gyrobob on 06/01/11 at 19:44:59 Yes, as those above have mentioned, you can lean a Savage over until it scrapes. If you do it rapidly, you might begin to lift a tire, which might cause a UDFS. If you are leaning it over to where things are scraping, you might also cause a UDFS if you hit some oil or sand or leaves or pine straw or water or other stuff like that there. If you lean it over often, and scrape it a lot, combined with the occasional UDFS, you can brag about how manly you are and can prove it by all the nubs being gone from your tires, lots of metal ground down on the LS650P, and darker areas of skin on your knees and elbows. Anyway, this leany-over stuff is lots of fun. Scrape off lots of metal and tire nubs. Just be a little mindful of staying on clean, dry pavement. Think how much cardrivers are missing! (UDFS = unauthorized departure from Savage) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/01/11 at 20:00:43 Interesting point of view. My interests are in no way related to scraping anything on my 650; it would seem careless to intentionally mess up such a nice bike. I live in Colorado and HWY 34 goes from Loveland to Estes Park. Its really quiet an astonishing road, with lots of fun turns to navigate through the Rocky Mountain canyon road. I just worry that if I apply too much pressure to the grip surface (part of tire in contact with road during turn) and as I said before, assuming normal...clean, asphalt highway every town USA roads... I would like someone to offer up some experiential knowledge of their experiences navigating turns and at what speeds and angles. What cant I do, so i know how far (speed approaching a given arc) I cant take it, not to see how low i can actually go, but how fast I can take a turn without losing grip. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by KristenAnn on 06/01/11 at 20:20:53 (UDFS = unauthorized departure from Savage) Ive had that done to me!!1 |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Gyrobob on 06/01/11 at 20:29:08 4E6B7C636E5C65666961676B64640A0 wrote:
It's just physics and geometry. With decent tires and clean pavement, you have enough friction to lean a stock Savage as far as you want at any speed you want,.... up until you lean so far over that sparks start flying. That's the limit. It's not a very great limit. The Savage was not designed to be GSXR type crotch-rocket canyon-scratcher. It is a cruiser. The designers figured you'd just go boppin' down the boulevard keeping pretty much vertical. Tilt it over more than several degrees and things get ground down. You can not, as you said, "apply too much pressure to the grip surface" and cause the tire to slide. Not on a Savage, anyway. Speeds don't matter. It takes the same amount of lateral acceleration to maintain a given lean angle at 5 mph as it does at 50 mph. You stated, "I would like someone to offer up some experiential knowledge of their experiences navigating turns and at what speeds and angles. What cant I do, so i know how far (speed approaching a given arc) I cant take it, not to see how low i can actually go, but how fast I can take a turn without losing grip." There aren't any speeds to tell about for given arcs. You can't lose grip on a Savage by leaning over too far,... unless, of course, you start dragging things. You can learn a lot by finding some large area of unoccupied pavement, and find out what it is like to lean it over at various speeds until you hit the limit,.. sparks. Try various speeds to see what the sensations are like when you hit that limit. It'll feel different at 20mph compared to 60mph, and the turn radii will differ, but the lean angles will be the same. Happy scraping!! |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Serowbot on 06/01/11 at 21:53:32 Learn to lean your body... Most people lean the bike, and keep their body vertical... It's almost counter-intuitive,... but, the more you lean your body into a turn, the less you lean the bike... and the faster you can corner without dragging anything.. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by babyhog on 06/02/11 at 05:38:23 Maybe AL will get some videos of some scraping on the Dragon later this month! |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by kernel ken on 06/02/11 at 06:11:57 I suggest that while going through this learning experience you wear full riding gear. By that I mean helmet, gloves, riding jacket, riding pants and boots. It's a lot easier to replace a scuffed up jacket or helmet than replace layers of skin or mend broken bones. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/11 at 06:19:51 Took me a long time to stop getting a Jump in my Guts when a peg touched down. The acorn nuts that hold the peg mounts, the ones that go on the bolts that run thru the motor mounts, are ground down some. Ive never low sided it on asphalt. Wet grass, OTTOH, has had me layin it down several times.. Ive even had to tie the rubber together under one peg, cuz it was cut so bad it was coming off. Yes, you can drag pegs, but thats not all ya need to do to be fast thru a turn. As the Rowboat said, |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by BuckHMCC on 06/02/11 at 08:33:38 Do you really want to know what the cornering limits of you and your bike are? Try a track day. In these parts we have Tony's Track Days at the track in New Hampshire (http://www.tonystrackdays.com/). All bikes and rider experience are welcome. There's presentations and coaching and a full day of going around the track in a controlled setting. I may try it sometime. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Bubba on 06/02/11 at 09:50:56 DVnewrider, I too live in Colorado...here's the thing, you can do lots of canyon cruising on this bike. I've taken mine on some real twisty twisties..it's fun and I've leaned it over to the point wear I get kinda freaked out. I'd start out leaning it at speed where you can feel comfortable about holding your line through the turn. What I've noticed is that the turns around here just keep going...almost corkscrewlike...just make sure you hold your line and don't drift into oncoming traffic (guy on a harley almost took out a friend of mine cuz he was drifting out of his lane!). The other thing to remember is the blind turns that have boulders, sand, gravel or moose around them are not very forgiving of high speed entry... ;) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Sunchasers on 06/02/11 at 10:10:35 Hi DV and welcome! I know (very well) the stretch of road (Big Thompson Canyon) you are referring as I have lived in the immediate area for over 25 years. While I have yet to ride my Savage to Estes, I have taken the trip numerous times with previous bikes, of which the last was my '96 Intruder VL1500. My experiences for the road have been mixed mainly due to the amount of traffic traveling both ways especially during the summer (tourist) season. Personally, I have found that trying ride that fast ( for hard leans) in that roads tight curves to be counter productive because you are always hitting your brakes to avoid rear ending the car in front of you. I would just relax, cruise, and enjoy the tremendous views of the canyon walls at your shoulders. Plus you have the ability to blow the doors off any "cagers" in the short passing zones! But that's just me. Whatever you decide, be safe, stay sharp, and watch out for the other guy at all times! In the narrows, your only escape route is over the railing and 20-30ft down to the river! |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Serowbot on 06/02/11 at 10:15:10 One tip,... Enter a turn a little slower than you think,.. then accelerate through the turn... You have more control accelerating, than decelerating... Plus you will have a stronger exit speed... ;)... |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by bill67 on 06/02/11 at 10:40:50 DV when you find out how far it will lean and get out of the hospital let us know how far you had it leaned. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Serowbot on 06/02/11 at 10:55:24 010A0F0F5554630 wrote:
That would be,.. all the way... :-?... |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Africord on 06/02/11 at 11:53:01 Okay, I'm missing something. I thought owning a Savage/Boulevard was about crusing, looking cool, and taking easy rides through the countryside. I joined this site because my wife has an 02 Savage and I need to take care of it. Are you guys connected to the canyon carvers over at VFRD? That's my other hangout to support my sport touring addiction in the form of a 02 VFR800. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Serowbot on 06/02/11 at 12:07:18 Na,.. I'm a putter... ...but, every once in a while, I get a bug up my butt... :-?... |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by cursal on 06/02/11 at 12:11:20 Lots of good info in this thread. Remember your Apex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOmyWRx8wfE he has lots of other great rider vids. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Sunchasers on 06/02/11 at 12:13:38 Same here... bugs up the butt are the chances ya take riding these things! ;D |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by 4carbcorvair on 06/02/11 at 12:58:11 Friend of mine bragged about draggin the pegs on his larger Suzuki last year. Than one day I see him all scraped up. The peg caught just right and flipped him over, errr, under. Truck behind him stopped just in time. It's good to have fun, just be careful doing so. :) I just said that? I must be getting old. :\ |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by ralfyguy on 06/02/11 at 14:14:28 The savage can achieve respectable lean angles for a cruiser. When I take off- and on-ramps, when riding with my buddy, I can smoke him easily on the outside. He has a C50, and his foot boards would have slammed the tarmac if he tried the same. The only thing you have to watch for is dips and bumps, besides dirt on the road when doing that, as the bike seems to be a bit underdamped and gets very light on the front when it hits a dip when leaning low. Gets a tad scary at times then. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by BuckHMCC on 06/02/11 at 16:45:52 My Ryca kit arrives next Tuesday. When I get that put together with the elevated rearsets instead of those stupid forward controls I'll see what it can do. I suspect the bike's max lean angle will be greater than the rider's max lean angle. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by ralfyguy on 06/02/11 at 17:59:38 0532242C0F0A0404470 wrote:
;D ;) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by DVnewrider on 06/02/11 at 19:30:57 Wow, lots of great info. Much appreciated. So I took her out today and came up with a system for identifying pre-peg scrape lean levels; I just moved my foot back on the peg to where my heel was lower than the peg. As I would lean into turns my heal would touch first letting me know I have an inch till contact; helped to familiarize myself with the "sense" of leaning. I also messed around with "leaning my body more, so the bike doesn't have too so much" as i think Gyrobob mentioned. Could anyone talk some more about that? If im going 20mph and about to approach say a normal left turn that's perpendicular to the street im on, if i want to maintain speed, or even increase around (this is all for curiosity sake btw, I'm really not careless) the turn, should I lean my body over than push hard on the left side of the handle bar, while maintaining a safe peg distance...? blah blah blah...hope im making sense. For the record, and generally speaking, i can handle my sh## out there, just a details guy. 8-) Ok so i need some help on the nomenclature here guys: What's a "cager"? Also, Posted by: BuckHMCC Posted on: Today at 16:45:52 My Ryca kit arrives next Tuesday. When I get that put together with the elevated rearsets instead of those stupid forward controls I'll see what it can do. I suspect the bike's max lean angle will be greater than the rider's max lean angle. -I would love clarification on all of that above. Ryca? Elevated rearsets? etc -"..as the bike seems to be a bit underdamped and gets very light on the front when it hits a dip when leaning low." Underdamped? -ha, and what constitutes a bug up the butt? -cheers |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Trippah on 06/02/11 at 19:59:03 ? You might want to glance (or even read) some of the racing books...how to set up your line through a curve etc. The suggestion about gear is spot on - paying for a new jacket or pants is so much less painfull than full blown road rash. The Savage is not a race bke, and you will scrape pegs before losing traction (if you enter and exit the curve correctly, don't break midway etc). |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Trippah on 06/02/11 at 20:03:01 Most folks i ride with slow down on approach to a 90* left hander, lean in turning their heads to the exit, and as the bike falls to its left, goose the gas and accelerate out of it (that is the 20mph left hand turn mentioned). Enjoy yourself as you learn, it is great fun. ;) |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Z on 06/03/11 at 03:41:49 0722352A27152C2F20282E222D2D430 wrote:
I'm pretty new here myself but I believe a "cager" is a 4 wheeled vehicle-such as a car. RYCA , I think, is build company. It sounds like they make customizable parts and such. Since "rearsets" is used in context with forward controls I would say it is a different set up for your shifter/rear brakes. "underdamped"-I'm not sure but it seems it would be something with the suspension and getting squirrley when you hit a hole. "bug up the butt", to me, would be when you want to get a little wild/crazy with the speed. The more experienced folk, please correct me if needed. :) BTW, when I was first learning to ride and scraped the peg for the first time, I was TERRIFIED!! ;D I thought I did something really wrong. Right now I am the only one of our group that can do it. ;D |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Gyrobob on 06/03/11 at 06:34:41 4C697E616C5E67646B6365696666080 wrote:
Clarifications: Bug up the butt -- a curious thing that happens to those of us here,... we do things like buy and ride motorcycles,... sometimes for no reason at all, we ride around on twisty roads trying to find out how far we can lean before strange things happen,... occasionally we take a very well engineered piece of machinery and rip it apart so we can put it back together in a way that might not resemble the well-engineering bike we started off with,... Bug up the butt is one of the rungs on our DNA ladder that makes us do something just because we think it would be some sort of a thrill to do so Underdamped -- not enough damping on spring compression and recoil. IOW, the "shock absorbers" are not slowing down the springs enough. It makes the bike feel like it is bouncing up and down repeatedly rather than just soaking up a bump and going back to neutral. The cure is to slow down and stop having so much fun (not advisable) or to put heavier oil in your forks or to upgrade your suspension stuff front and rear to the tune of hundreds of bucks. RYCA is an acronym for Ryan and Casey. see any of several threads here. Mine is "Double RYCA Build." also see www.rycamotors.com Elevated rearsets -- reengineering where the foot controls are located so they are under your butt and higher off the ground, rather than under the headlight with your heels in the dirt. For canyon-carving, the bike is transformed from feeling like a wheelbarrow to feeling like a weapon. RYCA does supply this stuff in their CS-1 kit. Cager is a pejorative term for those who only care to drive around in Smart-for-twos, Silverados, Lexii, and s**t. I didn't mention anything about leaning over more or less than the bike. Unless you intend to do some SERIOUS road racing, fuggedaboudit. Just stay seated normally, so your body doesn't move at all relative to the bike (except for your head, which should be pointed to the area you and your bike will be traveling through in literally about two seconds). As for countersteering, fuggedaboudit as well. If you start thinking about which way to push the bars to get to bike to lean this way or that, you'll stop concentrating on important stuff. It doesn't do any good at all. If you are driving down the road in your Lincoln, and your hand is on the bottom of the steering wheel, do you need to think about pushing your hand to the left to get the car to turn right? Fuggedaboudit. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by bill67 on 06/03/11 at 08:15:50 Happy to see someone else knows how to steer a motorcycle on here besides me. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by CalisOsin on 06/03/11 at 09:17:29 @DVnewrider: Take a class. There is no amount of online advice that will make up for sitting on a bike and having a pro show you how it's done. They have basic classes to knee sliding advanced and everything in-between. If you're adamant about getting as low as possible, this is the best way to do it. |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by kel30734 on 06/03/11 at 09:29:03 Here is come peg scrapin with a loaded mule http://p1.bikepics.com/pics/2009/07/16/bikepics-1727870-full.jpg But Oldfeller got his acorn nut and exhaust header that year as far as pegs go I use the HD rubber pegs. they have more travel and are cheep to replce.... to me foot pegs are a consumable ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: How low can I lean? Post by Serowbot on 06/03/11 at 10:54:17 Like Gyrobob said,.. body lean is a technique mostly reserved for racing... ... but, since you are talking about learning to push the limits, it's a good thing to know. When your bike leans in a turn, it is balancing the forces of centrifugal force against gravity to keep you on the road. Shifting the total weight of you and your bike to stay on the road. The distribution of the weight of your bike is fixed and the only way for it to balance is to lean more and more as the turns get tighter. Your body is not fixed on the bike... you can shift your weight from side to side. This shifts the balance point of the bike. If you lean your body in a turn,... the bike will go more upright to correct the balance point. This is particularly good to know when the pegs start scraping, because, once the peg is down, the next thing to touch will be solid and will put you down... lean your body while a peg is touching and the bike will go more upright and the peg will stop scraping. I rarely scrape pegs, because as I feel that point approaching, I lean my body into the turn. My shocks are also 2" taller than stock, so my scraping point is much more extreme than on a stock bike. Because the stock bike scrapes fairly easily,... knowing that you can lean in to stop it is even more important... I wouldn't recommend riding at that extreme as matter of habit,... but if you find yourself caught off guard by a decreasing radius turn,... knowing to lean your body into it can save your skin... http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/rider%20in%20LH%20turn%2001.jpg This guy takes his practice seriously... ;D... http://2leep.com/img/49977-rect-220.jpg PS... a cager,... is a car driver with no awareness of motorcycles... a bug up the butt,... is an irresistible urge to do something stupid... ;D... |
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