|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> New old savage /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1302429871 Message started by mcentric on 04/10/11 at 03:04:30 |
|
Title: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/10/11 at 03:04:30 Hi all! I recently bought my first Savage. An '88 model. I'm not unfamiliar with bikes or wrenching, but this is my first air-cooled, and my first single cylinder engine. At first inspection it appeared quite sound, but it was dirt cheap, so I wasn't taking anything for granted. There was a quite distinct "ticking" from the valves/rockers, so I've adjusted the tappet clearances to spec and that helped somewhat. I also replaced the leaky exhaust gasket. My question is basically this: When riding at moderate speed with a helmet on, are you supposed to quite clearly hear the the valves/rockers? If not, will cam wear be my next place to look? I have not checked the infamous cam chain tensioner yet. :-/ Apart from the "ticking" it runs good, starts easily, and the spark plug indicates a pretty acceptable mixture. It has a fairly open aftermarket exhaust, but has not (to my knowledge been re-jetted). There is a slight backfire on engine shut-off, but nothing dramatic. I intended to tear the engine down and go over it thoroughly, but the spring appeared with a bang and the snow cleared (I live in Norway), and now I would prefer to have it in ridable condition ;) all opinions appreciated cheers Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/10/11 at 03:06:43 YouTube Video -> http://youtu.be/gqtotRgn67k?hd=1 |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/10/11 at 03:50:43 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/88_savage.jpg |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by houstonbofh on 04/10/11 at 06:45:49 Man, that looks clean! Anyway, it is very hard to diagnose type written sounds. :) Some information, however... Air cooled make more noise that water cooled, in general. And with open exhaust, it can be hard to tell where a clack is coming from. I would stick a Harley takeoff (Or whatever is cheap over there) on to get the sound down. Also try a machinist's stethoscope to isolate it. You may also want to look at the cam chain. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by Routy on 04/10/11 at 07:31:11 Does it have a windshield,......because that can sure make an engine appear to be noisier than it really is ! |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/10/11 at 07:36:53 that's a definite tick. put your hand on top of the case next to the oil filter cover, if you can feel the ticking there, then it's the cam chain. other than that, do a compression test. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/10/11 at 09:33:15 Thanks for the feedback guys! I just came back from a short ride, and there is definitely more mechanical noise than there should be. I will be checking the cam chain issue before I do much more riding. By chance I bought a compression tester yesterday, so that will also be done shortly. I'll be back with the results. thanx again Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/11/11 at 07:32:03 It only takes starting it up to do lots of damage IF the tensioner lets go. I wouldnt fire it up again till I looked at it inside. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/13/11 at 02:07:12 I guess it really was time to check the cam chain tensioner!! 20mm extension on the plunger is, from what I have read on this forum, way past acceptable. Now to chose from the suggested mods.... any suggestions? Am I right in assuming that this would be enough to cause the rattle that I am hearing? cheers Mikael http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/cam_chain_tensioner.jpg |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/13/11 at 02:29:19 Time or the Verslavy mod. Then you can sort out the little bugs. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/13/11 at 09:30:04 Well, I went for the "extend the bolt hole on the plunger" mod :) I haven't assembled the clutch cover yet so I can't positively say it's fixed the rattle, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a significant improvement. It's probably been done a lot of times here, but I thought I'd document the mod with a picture series: 1. I cut off a little piece of 5mm steel plate to the approximate width of the tab on the plunger. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix01.JPG 2. I lined the right edge of the steel plate up tangent to the right edge of the bolt hole on the tab and marked the location on the steel plate. I then marked the new bolt hole 15mm to the left. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix02.JPG 3. I center punched and drilled the hole to 9mm. The edge was the slightly chamfered with a countersink. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix03.JPG 4. I ground a radius on the left end of the steel plate, and a slight chamfer on the side that will be welded http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix04.JPG 5. The tab on the plunger was ground down to the inner tangent of the old bolt hole. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix05.JPG 6. The pieces were TIG welded together. I didn't use any filler rod as the steel plate was a bit thicker than the tab on the plunger. They flowed together nicely. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix06.JPG 7. The newly modified plunger was slightly cleaned up on a coarse polishing wheel and the edges blended a bit http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix07.JPG 8. Et Voila! I counter bored bolt hole a bit more as the spacer on the bolt wasn't clearing the new thicker tab. On assembly I couldn't remember the trick for disabling the ratchet mechanism, so instead I used a choice selection of both norwegian and english swear words, and that seemed to do the trick. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/CCT_fix08.JPG |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by babyhog on 04/13/11 at 10:54:33 Nice job, and great pic-splanation. I know what would happen if the plunger fell out as it was originally (really bad stuff), but what will happen now? Seems it would have a tough time falling out now, but the chain will eventually still stretch out and need replaced, right? Will your extended plunger fit with a new tight chain? Bike may not live to see that day though. And I'd love to know some of those norwegian swear words. I've worn out the english ones... ;) |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/13/11 at 11:20:07 Thanks :) There really wasn't much holding that plunger in its housing, so I'm real glad I checked it when I did! When I eventually replace the cam chain I will drill a new hole in the original location, buy a new plunger/tensioner assembly, or machine a new plunger. But hopefully I'll get a couple of years out of this mod :) Mikael 2E2D2C212339400 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by EJID on 04/13/11 at 11:53:03 Don't know if you already stated it, but how many miles are on the bike at this time? Good job with the verslavy mod too ;D |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/13/11 at 12:30:32 Thanks :) The bike has 39.000km on it, so aprox. 24.000miles. It was due for a tune-up :D Mikael 747B7875310 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by bobber_prjct_2010 on 04/13/11 at 12:50:04 This is an aweome thread. Thanks mcentric! This is just what I needed, just in the knick of time! |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by bobber_prjct_2010 on 04/13/11 at 12:54:57 So, how is the bike running now? Still ticking?? I'm curious to see how much the mod helped!! I think I'm in the same boat... |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/13/11 at 13:05:34 Your welcome :) glad you found it useful. I haven't had time to assemble the clutch cover yet, so I don't how much it has helped. But before I made this mod I adjusted the valves, and that helped a little, so I'm hoping the remaining rattle/ticking was from the cam chain. I'll be back with the results as soon as I know :) Mikael 0A0D040F1A52505050600 wrote:
60676E6570383A3A3A0A0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/15/11 at 01:43:18 I got everything put back together today and rode to work. Everything ran great and I BELIEVE the rattle has decreased, but I might just be getting paranoid, because I can still hear it :( It's not really supposed to disappear completely right? It's in a thumpers nature to have some mechanical noise in addition to combustion noises....? @ verslagen1: I did as you suggested and felt for vibrations on the case by the oilfilter cover, and I can feel anything suspicious now. I feel most of the noise is coming from the head/rockers/valves. The rocker tappets are adjusted to 0.1mm, so I don't think they are causing more racket than they should. Could cam wear be something to look at? I haven't gotten around to doing the compression test, but I would be surprised if I found anything detrimental. The bike appears to be running solidly. any views? Maybe I should just relax and start enjoying the bike ;D cheers Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/17/11 at 12:03:54 Anyone have an opinion on my previous post? Another couple of issues have arisen: 1. There is some racking in the rear end. I am quite certain that there is play in both the wheel bearing and the swing arm pivot bearing. It is actually quite noticeable when riding as the rear end feels loose when cornering. Are there any issues I should be aware of when changing these bearings, or is it pretty straight forward? 2. As the bellow pictures show, I have an oil leak! It doesn't appear to be catastrophic, but I think I should do something about it pretty soon. Is this a classic case of busted head gasket? I still haven't gotten around to doing a compression test yet, but I'm now guessing the result won't be favorable. All opinions appreciated :) Mikael http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/leak01.JPG http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/leak02.JPG |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/17/11 at 12:27:05 Looks to me that you have a head gasket leak. You can retorque the head bolts, but now that it's started won't go away completely. What kind of noise is it? Knock knock... or tick tick... or whir? compression test... getrdone, will help in diagnosing noises. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/17/11 at 12:46:47 The first thing I bought after the bike was a complete gasket kit, so I might as well just change the head gasket. I re-used the clutch cover gasket after the cam chain tensioner mod, but I see that is sweating a bit now, so that'll be changed as well. I'd say it mostly a ticking sound with a slight whir.... basically it just sounds like the rocker/valves and the cam chain. I think it might just be my inexperience with air-cooled singles that's making me think it's louder than it should be. There was an improvement after I did your cam chain tensioner mod, so maybe I should just accept the mechanical noise that's there now as a baseline. Compression test tomorrow it is then :) How about the bearings? easy fix? Mikael 594A5D5C434E484A411E2F0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/17/11 at 12:54:48 a slight whir should be normal, just as ticking is. Stock muffler? ::) |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/17/11 at 13:13:43 564552534C4147454E11200 wrote:
Absolutely not :) http://youtu.be/gqtotRgn67k?hd=1 |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/17/11 at 16:38:06 Is it colder than a witches... err... hmmm... big toe there or is it smoking? (compression test) |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/17/11 at 22:17:07 Both actually :) It was about -5C (23F) when the video was shot, but it does smoke a bit at start-up. The head gasket is definitely being changed. Mikael 667562637C7177757E21100 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/19/11 at 10:49:06 New day, old issues... I am a bit further along in making my savage all better though: 1. I finally got around to doing the compression test... it was bad. I was consistently getting a result of 100-105PSI! It took some time from when I shut it off until I took the tank off, so it was more like hot to the touch than running temperature. Does this affect the results greatly? With the compression that low I'm thinking this is a lot more than just a blown head gasket. A valve issue would explain the noise I have been referring to in this thread I guess? but I can't rule out busted piston rings. Opinions anyone? I know I read it somewhere, but I can't remember right now: Can I get the head and cylinder off without taking the engine out? 2. I bought new wheel bearings today, but couldn't get the needle bearings for the swing arm pivot shaft. When I got the wheel off I realized, to my dismay, that there was hardly any play in the wheel bearings, and that it was all in the swing arm pivot (I didn't have the rear wheel off the ground when I checked which fooled me a bit). The 19mm pivot shaft nut on the right side came off easily, but the shaft couldn't be pushed through. When I tried to turn the shaft from the left side there was a hideous *CRUNCH* as the needle bearings disintegrated. Now the shaft is jammed. I've started to push it through with a pneumatic hammer, but it was too late to make that much noise :) Hope I can get the bearings quickly! Here's where I stand now: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/issues_01.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/issues_02.jpg Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/19/11 at 11:30:18 2C080A00040D610 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
you can get the head cover off, head requires you remove a few of the cylinder bolts, cylinder maybe more. but it'll be easier to take the engine out. easier then you think, remove all the bolts to get the engine loose, take off all you can to make it lighter, lay some padding down, lay the bike on top of it, wiggle the engine free, stand it up and put it on the bench. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by RidgeRunner13 on 04/19/11 at 12:46:33 Squirt oil in the cylinder & retest compression. A significant rise indicates bad rings, little or none = valves. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/20/11 at 09:32:06 Soooooo...... I got the swing arm pivot bearings out.... ;D http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/swing_arm_pivot01.jpg Well, almost all of it. The bearing housing is still stuck in there and is currently soaking i rust remover http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/swing_arm_pivot02.jpg The shaft was covered in rust and old grease so I threw it in the lathe and took a very light cut to remove just the rust, and then I finished it off with sandpaper. I haven't checked the the specs for the original OD of the shaft but I doubt I took off enough to make a difference. If I have, I'll order a new shaft or machine a new spacers to fit it. before http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/swing_arm_pivot03.jpg after http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/swing_arm_pivot04.jpg I ordered a new set of bearings and spacers today. Let me tell you... spare parts for a "cheap" bike in Norway certainly aren't cheap. 630 Norwegian Kroner ($118)! A pair of rear wheel bearings and a belt sprocket hub bearing were $85. I would have bought it all on eBay, but I don't want to wait two weeks to get it... the riding season in Norway is short enough as it is ;) Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by engineer on 04/20/11 at 12:44:20 Nice job cleaning up the shaft and it looks like the needle bearings have their own inner race so the fit should be good. If not, Loctite and other brands, have fillers designed to take up the space between the race and the shaft. Looks like the corrosion is what led to the end of the bearings. I think most of the bearings in these bikes are standard metric sizes if you have access to an industrial supplier it would save you lots of money. |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/21/11 at 09:20:16 Thanks for the tip. I tried it even though I'm planning on tearing the top apart any way. I was actually really surprised with the result... hardly any noticeable difference at all! With a cold engine I was consistently getting 110-115PSI. I tried a couple of other things just for the hell of it: unplugging the decomp solenoid had no effect on the compression. Doing the compression test with the throttle wide open to let more air into the cylinder before the compression stroke gave me a pressure of 175PSI... interesting but not really useful. I'm curious/dreading to see the state of my valves. Report will follow. Mikael 7B404D4E4C7B5C47474C5B181A290 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/22/11 at 10:06:33 Thanks Engineer :) I got one of the bearing housings out today, but I'll leave the other to soak another day. It was suggested by an acquaintance to drop the bearings in the swing arm pivot all together, and just machine some brass bushings and install a couple of grease nipples. If it wasn't for the fact that I have already ordered the bearings I might just have tried that... would have been a lot cheaper ;) Mikael 2C2E252E272E22384B0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/22/11 at 12:31:26 I got that horrible sinking feeling in my stomach... or rather, wallet when I took the head cover off today. First annoyance: The 6x125 head bolt broke off. Luckily I got the rest out easily. One of the 6x39 bolts were so rounded off I had to drill it out. The 6x115 bolt turned out to be just a threaded rod with a nut poorly welded on. 1st. issue: The pads on the rocker arms that are in contact with the cams appears to be very worn. There is a slight lip indicating the original thickness. I'll take some measurements tomorrow. The picture isn't very descriptive, but some of you experienced Savage wrenchers might see the extent of the wear. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/Rocker_arms.jpg 2nd issue: In the bellow pictures you can see that there appears to be significant wear in the cam shaft "seat" (probably not the right term). I havent had a chance to check for any play between the cam and the "seat". If this wear is unacceptable, is there any way to fix it, or do I need to shell out for a new head? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/cam_seat01.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/cam_seat02.jpg This was sort of a downer, so I'm hoping someone can cast some positive light on my predicament :) Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 04/22/11 at 13:06:46 rocker arm repair... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1268653293 Cam Journal repair... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1268452150 |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/22/11 at 13:53:45 Excellent! Thanks verslagen! :) Mikael 53405756494442404B14250 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/25/11 at 06:33:34 No new discoveries today, but I managed to find time to get the engine out of the frame. I got started on a cradle for the engine, so I can bolt it to the bench, but I didn't quite finish it yet. *********************************************************************** Something's missing.... just can't put my finger on it :D http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/engine_out_01.jpg Waiting for its cradle http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/engine_out_02.jpg Zip-loc lifesavers :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/engine_out_03.jpg Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by MotoBuddha on 04/25/11 at 10:14:35 Here's the stand I made. http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/a56efb6f.jpg |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 04/26/11 at 04:39:18 Cool! That looks practical and easy to make! Mine will be a wood/metal combo as well :) Mikael 4D6F746F427564646861000 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 05/02/11 at 12:44:25 I still haven't had time to get started with the engine servicing, so I'll have to get back to that. I have, though, started purchasing parts for my bobberizing project next winter :) An after-market HD peanut tank. The mounting tabs will be removed and new ones fabbed. It will ride slightly lower on the backbone than the pic indicates now. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/bobber-project_01.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/bobber-project_03.jpg A Wide Glide front fender. It will be split down the middle and strip of steel added to widen it. The back end will be bobbed slightly, and voila, new rear fender. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/bobber-project_02.jpg |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 05/06/11 at 11:09:51 Time is flying away from me here! I'm gonna make a real effort to get the bike back together this weekend. I still need to get the head off to better diagnose the low compression I have. I bough a piston ring set, but unless the the valves are completely clean I'll put off changing them until the winter when I'll start my bobber project. All I got done today was finish my engine stand and mount the engine. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/engine_cradle_01.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/engine_cradle_02.jpg Mikael |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by verslagen1 on 05/06/11 at 11:34:59 nice engine stand 8-) |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 06/08/11 at 07:42:36 hopefully a partial cure for my tap dancing engine :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21507331/purchase.jpg |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by RycaShawn on 06/13/11 at 11:55:22 mcentric: What's the progress on your engine? |
|
Title: Re: New old savage Post by mcentric on 06/14/11 at 00:23:37 The picture above is pretty much how it looks right now. I have the engine out of the bike again, and the head is disassembled, but time is not plentiful at the moment. Hopefully I'll have the new parts in by this weekend. miko 476C7674467D74627B150 wrote:
|
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |