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Message started by Yonuh Adisi FSO on 03/27/11 at 10:15:34

Title: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by Yonuh Adisi FSO on 03/27/11 at 10:15:34

This idea just hit me while reading the "Ditch the airbox" thread.

Now I'm just spit balling here since I don't even have a bike at the moment to test this on but here goes.

What do you think would happen if someone got rid of the airbox, put on a pod filter, and installed a fan similar to a computer fan between the filter and carb and wired it to a switch or something. Would that pretty much give it a poor man's turbo?

Like I said, just spit balling, thinking outloud, or what have you.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by chickenwingsmmm on 03/27/11 at 10:22:28

In my newest issue of hotrod mag they routed the air from 2 leaf blowers into the intake of a corvette and made some noticeable hp gains. I think this idea would all depend on how well you directed and kept the airflow going down the intake.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/11 at 10:24:16

650 cc X 2,000 = air flow thru the carb at 2,000 rpm.

Gonna need some Honkin Wind to fill that fat jug up at RPM..

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by Chopped on 03/27/11 at 10:33:37

hell just put a turbo on it!

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by Yonuh Adisi FSO on 03/27/11 at 10:42:41

Like I said, was just curious as too what ya'll think would happen. If I still had the FireLizard, I would test it out myself and report back, but I don't have any kind of bike at the moment so it is basically just "I wonder what would happen if..."

Besides, actual turbos are pricey.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/27/11 at 10:51:36

The problem is accurately metering the air-fuel mixture between boosted and unboosted.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by verslagen1 on 03/27/11 at 11:08:26

Don't think those little fans blow much air... now a leaf blower... :o

Hmmm... how many volts do you get from the alternator before it gets regulated again? [smiley=evil.gif] [smiley=evil.gif] [smiley=evil.gif]

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by ralfyguy on 03/27/11 at 11:16:54

Isn't it primarily about the increase of Oxygen?

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by thumperclone on 03/27/11 at 11:19:22

theres a hair dryer lookin 12v blower out there
may be good for 50cc engine..

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by bill67 on 03/27/11 at 11:26:33

7A4C4D564B62474A504A230 wrote:

would the computer fan calculate how much fuel you need ::)

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by verslagen1 on 03/27/11 at 11:33:22

322E332B362334252A292823460 wrote:

theres a hair dryer lookin 12v blower out there
may be good for 50cc engine..

Naw, hot air ain't good for performance. Need a chiller.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by ralfyguy on 03/27/11 at 11:36:34

How about RAM air? Get a 1 1/2" PVC P-Trap and just use the "U"? Connect it with a two-clamp rubber drain adapter.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/27/11 at 12:00:48

7C6F626877697B770E0 wrote:

How about RAM air? Get a 1 1/2" PVC P-Trap and just use the "U"? Connect it with a two-clamp rubber drain adapter.

I could point you to the tale of frustration and woe over on another board where the guy has been struggling for two years trying to get the homemade ram air on his ZRX to fuel properly. No matter how much he messed with the jets, he would be either to rich at the bottom or too lean on top.

Title: Weird idea, probably will work.
Post by Paladin. on 03/27/11 at 13:02:38

312E282F32350434043C2E22695B0 wrote:

650 cc X 2,000 = air flow thru the carb at 2,000 rpm.....

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by Paladin. on 03/27/11 at 13:05:13

16342F34192E3F3F333A5B0 wrote:

... guy has been struggling.... No matter how much he messed with the jets, he would be either to rich at the bottom or too lean on top.

Maybe.

But Lancer could get the jets right.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by groupus on 03/27/11 at 13:30:46

i've herd of guys using the air pumps meant to push air into a car's exhaust for emissions as mini turbos. they can even combine several in series.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably will work.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/11 at 13:39:22

72434E43464B4C220 wrote:

[quote author=312E282F32350434043C2E22695B0 link=1301246135/0#2 date=1301246656]650 cc X 2,000 = air flow thru the carb at 2,000 rpm.....

Make that 6000 rpm, one inhale per two rotations = 3000 rpm, times 652cc = 1956000 cc/minute. 1 cu/ft = 28300cc. At 6000 rpm we are inhaling 69 cfm.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999612
A $15 12v 80mm fan is puffing 84 cfm. You will have positive pressure and will have some boost.

I have a lot of space over the airbox. Hmmmm.....[/quote]

I caint BLEEEVE I messed that up that bad. Thanks Paladin for straightening me out!

69 CFM at WFO aint that much,,, but, to boost the compression 15%, wouldnt we need something that pushed 15% over that 69 CFM?

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by Boofer on 03/27/11 at 15:46:59

Yonuh, I grew up in the era of ram air and big pistons. It worked well, so I believe ram air or maybe a small supercharger might work. The turbo works better IMO with fuel injection. What you are proposing sounds more like an electric supercharger. One thing's for sure. The hp gained wouldn't hurt the lower end of the 650. To get some good info just Google "Go Kart Turbos". Pricey. :)

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably will work.
Post by Paladin. on 03/27/11 at 17:11:53

223D3B3C21261727172F3D317A480 wrote:

[quote author=72434E43464B4C220 link=1301246135/0#13 date=1301256158]....A $15 12v 80mm fan is puffing 84 cfm. You will have positive pressure and will have some boost....

... 69 CFM at WFO aint that much,,, but, to boost the compression 15%, wouldnt we need something that pushed 15% over that 69 CFM? [/quote]
Ah... this is at 6K. Where we want, at say 2,000-3,000 rpm, we will be trying to push 84cfm into 23-34 cfm. We will not be cramming that much, but we will have some positive pressure and should have some more acceleration. I had some guy with a 80-100ci H.D. who did manage to outrun me, once I got into 2nd gear.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by engineer on 03/27/11 at 18:05:35

The idea of an electric fan boost is a good one and is being pursued by some major companies. The usual application now is for direct injected 2 cycle engines. The electric fan supplies air for scavenging and once the rpms of the engine get up a turbo takes over the duties. The two cycle engine is close to making a come back. They want to bring in clean air for combustion and leave the oil in the crankcase where it belongs.

It takes a powerful fan to create positive pressure at high flow rates. Axial flow fans like those in cooling applications produce a lot of flow but very little pressure. Even a furnace blower or bathroom exhaust fan has to be centrifugal just to overcome the resistance of the duct work.

But it's worth thinking about. If you Google with something like "latest 2 cycle designs" or "direct injection 2 cycle" you will find lots to read about and some of it will mention the electric blowers.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/11 at 18:49:54

How about a jolt of nitrous?

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by einheit13 on 03/27/11 at 18:59:27

It won't work because it will make the carb tuning out of whack. The fan can't compensate for throttle movement. It will obstruct air.They make air cleaners with little fans in them that does boost air flow into the carb. Its shaped like a funnel, but it doesn't do much because you can air lock the carb. When you slam the throttle closed. where is all the air trapped in there (under pressure) gonna go?? Into every hole it can find! Guess what happens when you pressurize the bowl of a carb??
Thats why you have sealed air boxes that encases the entire carb on accessory mount (blow thru) superchargers on carb equipped engines. They also have a pressure dump/compression release when pressure builds in the box that the engine doesn't want or can use.

A better idea would be to make a longer intake manifold to give it more runner length and get the carb out into the wind. Or make a split manifold and use 2 smaller carbs....Kinda like the manifold on a Solex twin throat carb....

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXmX9cLcv9ouYYOcNPOqY4YOa5oatYbfzPF6q-PFuNYU7LhJNI

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/27/11 at 19:02:50

Intake theory says the area between carb & air filter needs to be = to or greater than the volume of the cylinder.

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by einheit13 on 03/27/11 at 19:17:18

455A5C5B4641704070485A561D2F0 wrote:

Intake theory says the area between carb & air filter needs to be = to or greater than the volume of the cylinder.

No, it needs to be able to flow faster than the the cylinder can fill. My stock SE air cleaner on my 1200 Sporty has twice the area than the 2"x4" filter I run now. The advantage to my air cleaner is that it acts like a secondary venturi and actually moves more air. No stagnant areas that allows the movement of air flow to slow down or hinder flow in any way.
I ran one of these...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/17932486/sporty3.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/17932486/sporty4.jpg

Which I made a mount and bracket that left the carb throat unobstructed and seems it should flow lots of air. Well, it does, but it also creates lots of turbulence.

So now I modified and run one of these cheap $12 Mr Gasket air cleaners with a K&N filter....It made 3hp and 4.7ft/lbs. It also took out a rich issue I had between 3400-4100.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8brB55BRPKvahmEMttlXm3_iU40Ny5DW3MeJhsN4BPNlC7W7o

And it also gave me more leg room...this crowded me pretty good. Hopefully I'll get some pics up of of by before and after...all these are before
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/17932486/sporty6.jpg

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by danDmen on 03/29/11 at 12:09:05

maybe you can use one of this ones http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=air+filter+turbo&catId=0http://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/v1/314919948/KRICNG-Cold-Feed-Induction-Kit-Carbon-Fibre-Air-Filter-Box-with-fab-Great-discounts-Reasonable-shipping.summ.jpghttp://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/v0/373537317/car-Air-Filter.summ.jpghttp://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/v0/358044568/Turbo-kits.jpg

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by ralfyguy on 03/29/11 at 12:34:51

:-?

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by crackmonkey on 03/30/11 at 06:33:12

1B2D2C372A03262B312B420 wrote:

no. if it worked the factories would have every motor come with something like that. all you are going to do is jack the air fuel mix up. you need pressure not just flow

Title: Re: Weird idea, probably wouldn't work.
Post by einheit13 on 03/31/11 at 03:26:31

ditch the air box for pod filters, yes. Most upgrades for bikes start with either an air box mod or deletion. Leave the fans for radiators, oil coolers, computers, air conditioners, and hair dryers......