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Message started by ATLjan on 03/19/11 at 06:41:32

Title: After new front tire questions
Post by ATLjan on 03/19/11 at 06:41:32

Hello all. I put new Pirelli MT Route 66s on my 2004. Did the back at about 6900mi and the back last Monday at 7160mi. I removed the tires myself and took them to a local Cycle Gear shop to have them mounted and balanced. Everything went great with the back tire.

I've ridden approx 170mi with the new front tire. It feels okay during city driving, sometimes a little like it hops though. Yesterday I had the chance to get out on the highway at found that it feels 'off' somehow. At 75mph the front end 'wiggles' like I'm moving the handle bar back and forth rapidly. Upon decelation I get a similar sensation.

I checked my reinstallation and everything looks good. I should admit that I don't have a torque wrench. When I reinstalled I hand tightened and then tightened just a bit more by tapping with a rubber mallet. I removed it by the same procedure in reverse.

1. Is this how a misbalanced tire would behave?

2. Could this be because of my 'torque' setting?

3. Should I inflate my new tires to the same PSI as Suzuki recommends for the stock tires I replaced?

When the shop tech brought the newly mounted tire out to me I noticed the nut that snugs the valve stem to the rim was not screwed down. I don't know if that could play into the situation. I snugged it when I reinstalled.

I'm thinking the tire is off balance and that I should remove it and take it back to the shop. Is that what you think?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by Routy on 03/19/11 at 07:32:22

Yes, balance for sure. But why didn't the installer balance it,....or at least ask if you wanted it balanced ?

No its not the torque.
If you are used to working w/ hand tools,....nuts and bolts, you don't need a torque wrench,....except for head bolts, and any bolts that need to be tightened critically even,....like the bolts holding a valve body in an automatic transmission :o

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/19/11 at 07:46:10

Yeah, it sounds exactly like a balance problem. Is there a balancing weight on a spoke? Sometimes you luck out and the wheel-tire-tube combo needs no balancing, but it's highly unlikely. Also, as I learned with my car, they can be very sloppy with balancing, particularly if they have a load of work backing up or they just don't care.

You can check to see if the wheel is grossly out of balance by removing the caliper, hanging it off to the side, propping the tire off the ground and giving it a few gentle spins. If it keeps settling at the same general point, the balance needs to be fixed. It might take more precise methods to check the balance if it's only slightly off.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by JohnBoy on 03/19/11 at 08:20:28

I had similar problems with dunlop EleteII on a used bike that I picked up. One day I hit a concrete seam at a bridge pretty hard and the problem went away (?)
I took the bike to my mechanic to see what had changed and he removed and spun balanced the front tire. He found two things
1) the tire was out of balance by about 1/8 of an oz
2) the wheel had the glue outline of a similar sized weight at 180 degrees from where the weight was supposed to go. The previous tech had mounted the weight on the wrong side of the wheel. >:(

The moral here is that taking your bike to to the "pros"don't mean that they wont make mistakes.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by Serowbot on 03/19/11 at 08:33:21

The valve nut is for stem alignment during installation and shouldn't be tight to the rim once installed...
Most bikes have them snugged down tight, but they really shouldn't be.
Sounds like a tire balance problem to me...

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by ATLjan on 03/19/11 at 08:40:18

Thanks everybody.

It was supposed to be balanced and they did put some weights on the rim. I've got it off the bike and am about to take it back up to them.

I'll post a follow-up.

Thanks again.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/19/11 at 08:42:30

Have a real close look at where the bead sits into the rim, follow th line all the way around both sides, It may not be all the way out to th bead in one place, creating a Low POint

Title: LONG POST Re: After new front tire questions
Post by ATLjan on 03/19/11 at 16:07:27

So I took the front wheel off and took it back to the shop this morning. The tech that mounted it remembered me and greeted me by saying something like, "Oh no, did I mess up? Poor soul. I said I wouldn't go that far, and explained I have signifcant wobble at 65mph+ She asked if I wanted to change from weights on the rim to weights on the spoke (which is what I had on the old tire set up) and I said I wasn't sure what I needed and would appreciate their guidance. I asked if they could check it to be certain it was properly balanced.

The manager (endorsed as a good guy by good guy cycling friend) took the wheel to the back and later came to find me to tell me that it balanced perfectly but was underinflated. I told him that my gauge read the 29 PSI that Suzuki recommends and he suggested running 31 and adjusting in 2 PSI increments to see how it behaved. He said to put it back on the bike and that I should stop back in if those measure didn't stop the wobble BUT I didn't need to bring the tire?!?? So I came home, reinstalled, rode approx 30mi, wobbled at 65-70 and rode my bike back to the shop.

He took a look at the bike and we both agreed that it isn't even close to rocket science to take it off and put it on. I asked him if it was possible to over tighten the axle and pinch screw. I explained that I don't have a torque wrench and that I tightened them and then rubber malleted them a few times beyond hand tight. He suggested hand tight and 1/4 turn more.

He asked me what kind of tires I had before. They were stock but I honestly don't remember. IRC maybe? He said it could be the tire and that he wants to call Pirelli to discuss with them. I told him about our forum and that I got the tire recommendation from here and he guffawed just a little.
I pulled up the Pirelli Website on my phone and showed him that the tire in question is what they say goes on my bike (2004 Savage LS650P).

Then he asked me how long I had the tire before mounting it. I bought them both from Bike Bandit at the same time, last Oct, but didn't have the front mounted until last Monday. He asked where I had stored the front tire and I told him in the original shipping box in my carport (Atlanta, GA). He said that could be the problem... the tire being stored in the carport during the cold winter we had. Could this be? No UV exposure, absolutely no signs of any degradation whatsoever.

Now he wants me to drop the wheel off Monday so he can keep it for a couple of hours to speak to someone at Pirelli then break it down and remount and rebalance it. I think that will fix the issue.

I'm not sure being a 54-year old 5'5" female is helping me in this situation ;)

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by bill67 on 03/19/11 at 17:44:46

I only felt the front of a bike wobble once,I had a nail in the rear tire and as the pressure went down it started wobbling,Its possible that its your rear tire.Did you ever have it doing 75mph after the rear tire was changed.Is the rear aligned right.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by ATLjan on 03/19/11 at 18:09:10

Everthing was great after the rear tire change and it looks great with the drive belt tracking perfectly. Good thought though. Thanks.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/20/11 at 05:06:44

Another thing to check would be whether the front rim got bent out of true when the new tire was mounted.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by WebsterMark on 03/20/11 at 07:32:13

I put on a set of Pirelli Route 66 tires front and back and they work like a charm. Based on what the condition of your stock tires were, you should now feel like you're riding on a much heavier and solid bike. Should be a world of difference.

that story about possible damage during storage is BS because that would mean a tire could only last one season and then have to be replaced. Tell that to the guys in the north would gut it out and ride on and off all year. Tire rot does occur but not over one winter in Atlanta, GA.

I'd take it to the nearest competitor of that guy who put it on and tell them you're not comfortable with their compeitor's explanation and ask him to take a look. My guess is they'll take a look at no charge.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by einheit13 on 03/20/11 at 08:23:01

....is the tire installed correctly?? The alignment dot goes either at the valve stem or opposite the valve stem. Has anyone checked the bead area to make sure that the bead line is centered?? I have had issues with Pirelli tires not seating correctly and you end up with a hop/wobble at certain speeds.
As far as pressures, it does not matter what Suzuki wants you to to do, its what the tire tells you to do.

Did you install a new tube?? The valve stem lock nut should be tight because the tube will crawl if its not-more so on the rear, but it will do it on the front too. You should use spoke weights on a spoke rim. If not, wheel weights must be added to both sides of the rim.

How are they balancing the tire?? If they have no machine, you have to balance them on a gravity spindle vertically-this checks for humps and roundness to eliminate hopping. A tire can run a rim out of true. With a bubble while the wheel is horizontal-this check for true laterally which eliminates wobble.

Its not rocket science, but a few extra steps (whether some feel are needed or not) will make your tires last longer and give you a better ride. I always balance the rim before I install a tire.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by drums1 on 03/20/11 at 09:28:17

As with car tires, (23 years in the business), the tire itself may be out of round to start with. Or the rim could be slightly bent, or out of round. (A loose spoke, perhaps?) Jack up bike--back off or remove caliper, so wheel spins freely--then spin the tire and watch it closely, to see if it wobbles at all. A tire/wheel assembly can be perfectly balanced, but if there is a phisical wobble, you will still feel it when riding. Also, the rim can be true, but the tire itself may have a hop or wobble to it. Use your eyes.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/20/11 at 09:37:43

2C3A3D253B79480 wrote:

And if you can't see a wobble, you might be able to feel it by holding something like the tip of a pencil up against various areas of the rim while it spins. Or if you're taking the wheel back to the shop, they might have a run-out gauge that does the same thing more precisely.

Title: Re: After new front tire questions
Post by Ed L. on 03/20/11 at 15:56:53

A quick was to check for run out is to spin the wheel and slowly move a majic marker in till it just starts to touch the rim. If there is any problems with the rim not tracking straight you will see the majic marker making a mark at the high spot. Tweeking the spokes is all you will have to do to get it right.