SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Uh-Oh
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1295999410

Message started by CalisOsin on 01/25/11 at 15:50:10

Title: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/25/11 at 15:50:10

So let me start this by saying "yes, I'm an idiot for riding it when I knew there was something wrong" Let me be the example of what NOT to do.

Now that that's out of the way.... Some of you may remember me posting a video looking for help diagnosing a sound, and the general consensus was that the valves needed adjusting. No big deal, I pulled off the valve inspection covers and adjusted. It still ticked. I kept doing research and stayed off the bike for about a month. I couldn't figure it out so I (like an idiot) just kept riding. I thought maybe it was the cam chain tensioner, but was reminded of the errors in Clymers and that I may have adjusted wrong. I re-adjusted following the steps shown here and they were just slightly out of spec. Not enough IMO to make it rattle so I pulled the crank case cover and my tensioner definitely needed to be replaced. I ordered one from Verslagen and ... kept riding. Well yesterday(on my way home from the post office with my new tensioner) I finally found out the hard way what the error was. The pictures really speak for themselves....

and they are on page 2

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/11 at 16:20:33

Pretty hard to see that one coming..danged shame, too.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by MotoBuddha on 01/25/11 at 16:43:56

OW!

Ow ow ow ow ow OW!

(I wonder what I'll find when I pull my top end. The bike fired and ran very roughly when the PO showed me it ran. With all the other signs of neglect I've discovered, an eaten valve wouldn't surprise me.)

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/11 at 16:52:37

Wouldnt run a lick with a dropped valve, no compression, on top of a multitude of other things that would keep it from running,.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by verslagen1 on 01/25/11 at 17:25:06

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/222.jpg
Ouch! I don't like seeing that.

So the tick must've been the valve hanging up.
In the picture, it's pretty oily north and south. Did that happen durring disassembly? or while running?

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Boule’tard on 01/25/11 at 17:36:46

I was gonna say the tensioner is so far out it jumped time on you.. but that does not explain the oil caked on the combustion dome. Looks like two problems, one you avoided and one you didn't.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/25/11 at 17:51:25

The oil caked in there had to be from running it, because I drained the oil before opening her up. And I didn't get a chance to fix the cam chain tensioner since it blew on my way home.

Question for you guys though. If I put a wrench on the alternator rotor bolt and turn counterclockwise and the piston moves up and down inside the cylinder, is it possible the connecting rod and bearing are ok? Im trying to weigh my options for my next step. If you guys have any suggestions... I've got plenty of time to listen.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Boule’tard on 01/25/11 at 18:07:00

Sure it's possible, but a better way to evaluate it is to check for slop in the lower bearing once the cylinder's off. Since the piston must go, might as well replace the piston pin too, it is only about 15 bucks.

How's the bore? If it got scuffed, this could be a good excuse to rebore and go with a bigger or hi comp piston.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by james may on 01/25/11 at 21:36:13

636E746D6475607365010 wrote:

+1 If your not going to scrap it, I'd rebuild the engine bigger and better than before with an oversized piston and a full rebuild kit, including all the top end stuff and machine work on the cylinder head. Since it's going to cost you a bunch of work and money anyways alittle more money will get you a bad ass and reliable savage.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by MrThud on 01/26/11 at 01:24:35

Did it lock solid when you were riding?
Looks like it could have been a pretty nasty experience..
As said above it looks like the chain ended up slipping due to the tensioner and that would have ultimately resulted in the piston coming up with a valve still open.

What happened to the valve stem, I guess you removed that on disassembly and it was still held in place with the collars?
(i.e. you didnt also drop a valve right?)

Man thanks for sharing the pics and story. Hope you source another engine cheap mate. Good Luck.

One of the Savages I have, also came to me in bits after the same problem you have experienced. But I cant find a spare engine here in Australia and the previous owner threw away the head, Cam and barrels et.c.. So a rebuild isnt feasible.

Looks that LS650s are thankfully popular over there so hopefully you can get decent spares cheap :)

...Note to self.. Make sure to order the modified tensioner!!!!

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/26/11 at 07:13:32

@ Boule'tard - I was definitely going to check it, not leave it to chance, I just wasn't sure of what I should look for when checking it. I am considering boring it out and a larger piston, right now i'm just weighing the options. I'm told if you can feel the scoring inside the cylinder with your finger, it needs to be honed at the least, and I can feel it.

@ james may - I'd love to be able to drop a bunch of money into this and do a bunch of mods since it's down anyway, unfortunately this was my only means of transport so if I can't fix this fast and cheap, my money has to go towards a new vehicle (probably just a beater to get me to and fro)

@ MrThud - it didn't lock up (thank goodness). I just heard a snap and the bike shut off. It kept right on rolling until I could make it safely to the side of the road. The chain may have slipped, but it was still on when I took everything apart. Also due to the tapping I was hearing for a while, I think it was the valve the whole time.The valve stem was still in place, but the valve is lodged into the piston.

So, my next few questions... who here has bored out the cylinder, what piston did you use, and how much did it cost you?

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Boule’tard on 01/26/11 at 07:45:18

Wiseco offers 95, 96 and 97mm pistons that come with the rings and wristpin for about 150 bucks. Also, check with Lancer on here, he may have something cheaper or better for the same money.. and is also knowledgeable about reboring and Nikasil lining cylinders. I think the minimum you could get away with is a light hone with a bottle brush, assuming the scoring can be felt but not seen.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by MotoBuddha on 01/26/11 at 08:41:24

4E6C61647E427E64630D0 wrote:

I'd love to be able to drop a bunch of money into this and do a bunch of mods since it's down anyway, unfortunately this was my only means of transport so if I can't fix this fast and cheap...

I sincerely wish you the best in trying to repair it without breaking your bank.

There's an entire engine on eBay for $500. Seems like you'd pay at least that much scrounging parts from various sources, unless there's a generous benefactor out there. It would also be the fastest solution. It's what I would do in your situation, but only you can judge whether that's the way to go.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by bill67 on 01/26/11 at 08:47:52

I really believe people should use something like Sea Foam in their oil and gas to keep the engine clean.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/26/11 at 08:56:36

@MotoBuddha - I think I saw the one you were referring to, but it was also $200 for shipping, and while that probably would work out best, I don't have an extra $700 laying around at the moment.

@bill67 - Do you work for Sea Foam? I agree the stuff is good, and have used it in the past, I just don't see the relevance to this post....

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by MotoBuddha on 01/26/11 at 10:00:18

Then maybe you could see what Tjfisher can do for you. He's parting out the engine. I have the cylinder, but the rest might still be available.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1294277660

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/26/11 at 10:04:29

Good lookin out! I just PM'd him. Thanks

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/26/11 at 16:27:46

Just found out a friend of a friend is willing to do me a huge favor and bore it out for $20! Now I'm looking at pistons, Wiseco PN 4597M09700 looks to be tried and true. Think that's the winner. Going to get one ASAP so I can ship it with the cylinder to get bored/honed. Looks like I'm looking at $160-$200 for the piston/rings/wrist pin/clips, plus $20 for the bore, another $17(i think) for the crankpin, and maybe new bearings as well (won't know until I open her up), he also says the head can be welded/repair but i don't know how much that'll run me yet, and then new valves. so we will see, but it looks like I may not break the bank after all. :)

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Kris on 01/27/11 at 08:02:27

I just had this exact same issue on my bike last week. The same valve broke off and ping ponged inside my cylinder only to get lodged in the other exhaust valve. All this happened right after I put a new piston/rings and had the cylinder honed out. Hooray for money down the drain.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by MotoBuddha on 01/27/11 at 08:14:06

3E3E756770676163060 wrote:

Any way to know if it was BECAUSE of the new piston, or just coincidental?

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Kris on 01/27/11 at 08:22:17

I think it was just coincidental. Because she ran great for about 3 months when it developed a valve tap. It was only 3 days after the valve tap that it failed.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by ebonysresearch on 01/28/11 at 03:56:22

Is it just me...? I cant see the pictures

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/11 at 04:02:49

Maybe if you open the thread again..? Pics are there, showing a missing valve & damage on the head & such

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by Boule’tard on 01/28/11 at 06:18:38

Images "moved or deleted" at photobucket (photobucket! >:() Let's see if they will bequeath unto us the images again.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 01/28/11 at 07:16:03

Sorry, probably my fault. Here they are again.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/fe39e8a8.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/111.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/222.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/333.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/444.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/555.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/waterboyjosh/bike/666.jpg

on the bright side, i finally posted my own pictures the right way :)

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by babyhog on 01/28/11 at 07:19:36

Good job at re-posting the pics yourself!

(it would be nice if you'd go back to your first post, and edit out the links, and add a note that the pics are on page 2. Or just add them to the initial post and delete your last post.... just my .02)

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 05/05/11 at 09:42:00

Well, it's been a while since all this happened. I didn't have the cash to get everything fixed very quickly. Been bumming rides ever since. So, I pulled the motor, and bought a 97 mm Wiseco piston. I had the cylinder bored and got a new(to me) head. Inspected the crankcase and inner working to remove some debris (piston pieces) and see if there was any damage. I got very luck that there was no damage inside the crankcase. I had thought the original ticking was the cam chain so I had bought the verlsavy already. I put it all back together and she fired right up. But she is STILL ticking. When i was putting it back together I noticed that both the cam and the rocker arms appeared worn (the cam even seemed to have flat spots) but I just wanted to be certain I hadn't screwed anything up so I put it back together. A new cam and rocker arms should be arriving tomorrow. And I'll be at work again opening up the head. If this doesn't fix the ticking, I'll have to take it to someone much more qualified than me. Wish me luck!

oh, also I happened to come across an '86 Savage on Craigslist for $400 and couldn't resist. The guy seems legit, and he said it started when he bought it, but in the process of working on it he caused a short. I bought it and my intention is that if after this weekend something goes wrong with my motor, I may swap the motors and CDI... anyone see an issue with that? I know about the starter gear in the pre '90s bikes and how they sometimes break through the case, but since those gears and case are fine on my '97 I should be able to steal the parts from that bike right?

Either way, I should have some bike parts for sale very soon, in case anyone is interested. I wouldn't mind parting it out or selling outright to someone.

Thanks for listening to me ramble. Hope everyone has a fun and safe cinco de mayo!

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by ralfyguy on 05/05/11 at 10:17:05

What parts are you gonna sell?

Title: Re: Uh-Oh
Post by CalisOsin on 05/05/11 at 10:57:13

33202D2738263438410 wrote:

What parts are you gonna sell?

provided I don't need anything, I'll be selling everything.

if I do use the motor, then everything else.

and I'll post pics of the bike shortly. When I do start to sell it I'll be sure to post it in the marketplace.