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Message started by Pondog on 11/20/10 at 05:41:06

Title: Retorque head bolts
Post by Pondog on 11/20/10 at 05:41:06

I was riding in to work yesterday; it was a beautiful morning and everything was perfect. My ride was purring and even though the traffic was heavy all the stop signs and traffic lights didn't matter. Every stop was nice and smooth, like a feather hitting the ground. I thought, "Man, I'm hitting on all cylinders.... hold it, I only have one!" hahahaha.

At 22k I figure it's time to retorque the head bolts. I was wondering, from those who've already done it, is there anything I need to watch out for? Any hidden surprises or springs jumping out? I know there's a post in here somewhere detailing what needs to be done; I'll find it and download it as well.

Thanks,
Pondog

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by ralfyguy on 11/20/10 at 06:05:15

My advice is, leave it alone. There's a lot of members here that never did it. Me included. If you have no leaks and if it's running just fine, don't mess with it. I almost believe that retorquing the head bolts is way overrated. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/10 at 07:27:00

Ive got 20 K miles & never touched a head bolt. No leakee..

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Phelonius on 11/20/10 at 08:43:54

Make sure you have a good supply of profanity for removing the rocker cover. It is an interference fit with the frame.

Phelonius

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Routy on 11/20/10 at 17:17:26

If you wanted to do it at 2,000 miles, it would makes more sense to me. At 22,000 miles, the bolts probably aren't going to turn at the max torque rating anyway.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Digger on 12/06/10 at 21:07:24

162928222921460 wrote:

I do it according to Suzuki's recommended maintenance intervals.

Pretty straightforward job, if a bit tedious. I use Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_Permatex_Ultra_Grey_Rigid_High-Torque_RTV_Silicone_Gasket_Maker.htm) on the head cover, and Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/Permatex_Ultra_Rubber_Gasket_Sealant_Dressing.htm) on the o-rings and the camshaft end cap.

While it is true that many here never torque the head bolts, you have to ask yourself, "Do you feel lucky?"

Below is a copy-and-paste of a post I made a while back concerning this subject:

I think the choice of sealant here is fairly important. Since the job is such a PITA, you don't want to go back in there a few miles later for an oil leak.

I used to use Permatex® Ultra Copper® Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_Permatex_Ultra_Copper_Maximum_Temperature_RTV_Silicone_Gasket_Maker.htm) with fairly good luck. I'd just have some minor seepage starting after about 4000 miles.

The last time I did this job, I used Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_Permatex_Ultra_Grey_Rigid_High-Torque_RTV_Silicone_Gasket_Maker.htm). I got a leak after about 600 miles (under the front, port-side corner of the head cover), but I think that was my fault due to a faulty torque protocol (keep in mind that the Ultra Grey sets up pretty rigid):

*********************************************************

When installing the cylinder head cover, the FSM says to tighten the cylinder head bolts "diagonally." Clymers says the same thing, but adds to tighten the bolts in the middle of the cylinder head cover first.

With this vague guidance in mind, here is the bolt tightening order I've arrived at after removing and installing the cylinder head cover a few times (loosening order (e.g. when removing the cylinder head) will be the reverse of the tightening order):

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCoverBoltTorqueOrder-1E.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCoverBoltTorqueOrder-2E.jpg

My methodology was to start with the inner-most bolts and move diagonally as much as possible. This is just the pattern I have been using. Your way most likely will be better, please share if so.

I torque these bolts using a 0-200 in-lb beam torque wrench in three stages (snug, half-torque, full-torque).

*****************************************************

So, off the head cover came again. This time, I did things a little different:

**********************************************************

You may have noticed that, in the above post, I did not consider torquing the bolt that goes in the top left hole in the pictures.

This is because that bolt is also used to secure the left decorative chrome head cover. With that cover in place, some of the other head cover bolts would be hard to access.

However, if you don't mind going through a little extra trouble, you can torque the head cover in a more complete fashion.

Here is what I used to take the place of the decorative head cover - a stack of washers:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/LS650/HeadCoverSpacerE.jpg

I just placed a bunch of washers on the bolt. This allowed me to torque the bolt down properly.

After the gasket sealant used on the head cover was cured, I removed the washers and installed the left decorative chrome head cover.

Here is the torque order I used with the extra bolt in play:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/LS650/HeadCoverBoltTorqueOrder-4E.jpg
**********************************************************

No leaks yet.....I hope it works this time!

BTW, this stuff seems to be working well on the rubber plug, along with the rubber camshaft end cap: Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/Permatex_Ultra_Rubber_Gasket_Sealant_Dressing.htm).

IHTH someone!

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Routy on 12/07/10 at 05:34:56

Quote,......
While it is true that many here never torque the head bolts, you have to ask yourself, "Do you feel lucky?"
Below is a copy-and-paste of a post I made a while back concerning this subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the subject was,..." if the head bolts should be retightened at over 20,00 miles?" All the preceeding really hasn't anything to do w/ the "Do you feel lucky"
In all my automotive experience, and smaller Kolher engine exp, head bolts are seldom if ever retightened, and never after the initial breakin period of maybe 25 hrs.
All I'm wondering is if retorquing the head bolts is recommended for this engine. Are they known for any head gasket failures ?

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by bill67 on 12/07/10 at 05:56:48

You don't need to re tighten heads bolts,You will probability have trouble if you do.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/07/10 at 06:32:36

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/184ea0e1.jpg

Because 23 washers is a better solution than a shorter bolt? ;D

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Oldfeller on 12/07/10 at 12:14:27

You have to do it this way because the bolt is the stock bolt that is required to mount the glory cap.

The bolt is trapped, installed when the head cover comes down. You can't swap it out with a shorter bolt (or swap out a shorter bolt later with the stock long one).

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/07/10 at 13:46:37

Glory cap? Do you mean the chrome fake panhead thing? If so, then you don't need the bolt if you're not using the glory cap. And since Digger was writing about reinstalling the head cover, the bolt could be swapped out when the cover is off.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/08/10 at 05:16:26

No, we're just coming from two different sets of assumptions, mine being that I'm never going to put the cheesy chrome covers back on.

Sure, if you're keeping the decorative chrome cover, for the sake of torquing down the valve cover, you could do Digger's stack of washers (or a length of metal tubing, or a block with a hole drilled through it). But, of course, when you remove the dome nut to install the chrome cover, you'll un-torque what you just went to the trouble to torque.

I question that bolt's contribution to proper sealing, since it's outside the critical area of surface mating, sort of out on a little peninsula. Sure, once everything is installed, it might help a little, but only a little.

If it were really critical to sealing, they would have designed a more robust fastening system. Do you imagine the factory does something like Digger does when they build the engines? Or is it more likely a digitally controlled multi-headed wrench torques down the valve cover and then (right away, or maybe much further down the assembly line) someone installs the chrome cover over the flopping captured bolt?

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by spacepirates on 12/08/10 at 14:15:07

785A415A774051515D54350 wrote:

I question that bolt's contribution to proper sealing, since it's outside the critical area of surface mating, sort of out on a little peninsula. Sure, once everything is installed, it might help a little, but only a little.

i questioned it too, so i let it just sit there, un torqued. a few days later i had a leak right around that bolt :(

my fix was to just cut a short length of iron pipe and top that off with just a single washer and nut, which has worked well so far.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/08/10 at 14:34:42

The science side of me wonders though what other variables might have been involved. Was it just the bolt, or was it the way the sealant was applied? I don't know.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by BurnPgh on 12/08/10 at 14:57:52

I dont even have that bolt anymore. For a while I got a shorter one and put it in so the nut would be between the fins. Just kept it out all of this past season with no issue at all.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Digger on 12/11/10 at 21:09:17

67687269757360626A6473010 wrote:

.....All I'm wondering is if retorquing the head bolts is recommended for this engine. Are they known for any head gasket failures ?

The book calls for re-torquing the head nuts at 600, 4000, 7500, 11,000, and 15,000 miles (and, presumably, every 4000 miles beyond that). Dunno why.

Although I've read of a few head gasket failures on this board, it does not seem to be an endemic problem to the Savage.

I'm just sayin'.

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Digger on 12/11/10 at 21:13:53

696A7B797F6A73687B6E7F691A0 wrote:

[quote author=785A415A774051515D54350 link=1290260466/0#12 date=1291814186]

I question that bolt's contribution to proper sealing, since it's outside the critical area of surface mating, sort of out on a little peninsula. Sure, once everything is installed, it might help a little, but only a little.

The science side of me wonders though what other variables might have been involved. Was it just the bolt, or was it the way the sealant was applied? I don't know.

Dunno, but the last time I did this job, I let the sealant cure without torquing this bolt, then I torqued it after the chrome cover went on.

A few hundred miles later, I got an oil leak right at that spot. >:(

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by Digger on 12/11/10 at 21:16:03

7A4D4A56685F50380 wrote:

I dont even have that bolt anymore. For a while I got a shorter one and put it in so the nut would be between the fins. Just kept it out all of this past season with no issue at all.

I could never be that lucky! :'(

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by ocdave on 12/15/10 at 03:52:22

5B796279546372727E77160 wrote:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/184ea0e1.jpg

Because 23 washers is a better solution than a shorter bolt? ;D

Anyone have any problems installing a shorter bolt here? I believe this is the L65 bolt that needs to be installed upside down prior to replacing the head cover. I'm missing some of the chrome cover parts and bolts and don't plan on installing the covers. Does anyone know the bolt size I can use in place of this washer solution? thanks

Title: Re: Retorque head bolts
Post by MotoBuddha on 12/15/10 at 04:06:24

I imagine you could put the stock bolt in place, put the head cover on without bolting it down, make a bark on the stock bolt to show the minimum length, take off the head cover, remove the stock bolt and use it to find another bolt that's long enough, adding enough for a nut and washer to thread onto. The new bolt doesn't need to be any thicker than the stock bolt and can't be any thicker than the diameter of the holes it needs to pass through.