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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Bike wont start /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1286839077 Message started by Arnold on 10/11/10 at 16:17:57 |
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Title: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/11/10 at 16:17:57 Ok. I left work earlier today and my bike wouldnt start, thought maybe I left it on park so I pop started it and rode home. At least a 30 mins ride, when I got home I tried starting it thinking if it was the battery it would now have some kind of a charge but same thing. The lights are on strong and just one single click from the starter. I plan on hooking the starter to the + on the battery and see if it spins first. What do you guys think? Solenoid, relay? Where are they located and what at the troubleshooting steps? Thnx guys, |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Oldfeller on 10/11/10 at 16:39:58 Charge the battery, test the voltage -- you want over 12.4 volts for a good battery fully charged. Bike is in neutral, on the side stand. Switch is off for now. Take jumper cables from a 12 volt car battery and ground the negative jumper cable clamp to the bike's frame on a plated piece of metal like the sidestand, pull back the rubber boot from the starter motor large red junction block and put a piece of metal that you don't mind getting scarred up into the jaws of the positive jumper cable clamp and just touch the exposed positive cable junction on the starter motor itself with the positive contact piece of metal. Expect some sparks, some heat and some snap sounds -- DC carries some energy and the starter motor draws some decent power. If the starter motor even tries to run, stop at once. Starter is likely not the issue. Follow the big cable from the starter block you just jumped to back to the starter solenoid. Make sure connections are clean and not corroded. Check the large connection on the other side and trace the big cable back to the battery -- once again clean, no corrosion, nice and tight. I generally make up a nice long fairly substantial red lead with an alligator clip on it to use for troubleshooting bike electrics. Put the clip on the positive on the battery and touch the exposed bare wire on the other end to the red small lead going to the solenoid, energizing it briefly as if it had just gotten a "go" signal from the starter switch. If the solenoid clicks and the starter motor tries to run stop at once -- the solenoid is likely not the problem. Now you are off into the electrics and the various safety switches and the handlebar housings and the starter switch up on the handle bars and the kill switch and all the rest of the convoluted wire runs and other crap that you will now have to deal with. We have some electrical engineer types here on the list who are better troubleshooting that mare's nest than I am -- they can take over now. If you don't own a volt ohm meter -- sing out now. You will be helpless without one. :D |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/11/10 at 17:02:52 I do not have a voltmeter. I guess I could go buy one but I am pretty sure the battery is good, started this morning strong as usual and all the lights are on real strong too. I'll test the starter tomorrow, then move on to the solenoid after work and will post back the results. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by bill67 on 10/11/10 at 18:30:16 I never had a volt meter in my life,And don't need one. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/11/10 at 18:53:10 There was no warning either, just stopped cranking. I am gearing more toward the solenoid or as it is called also by some, the starter relay. Will jump it tomorrow, I guess if the starter cranks that means the solenoid is bad. Looked it up, $55 part for a new one or $40 for a universal. It seems to be pretty common failure point too, wondering if I should save a few bucks and get a universal one that may be a better design, although there isnt much to it. Check: http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=&store=&catId=&productId=p209825&leafCatId=&mmyId= |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Oldfeller on 10/11/10 at 19:10:35 Harbor Freight will sell you a very usable volt ohm meter for less than $4.00 on sale most weekends. WalMart, KMart, Advance Auto, Auto Zone will charge you 2-3 times more than Harbor Freight for equivalent tools. ====================== If you aren't equipped to do simple things like "check continuity" and "verify voltage reaches the xxxx" you won't go very far chasing down a no start condition very far into the electrical maze. ====================== Bill, why does this not surprise me that you do not own the simplest electrical diagnostic tool? Is there any wholistic Billistic medicine (or any of your simple magic spells?) you want to tell Arnold about that can magically fix his bike's electrical problem? Otherwise, we are gonna convert him to the "reality side of things" and get him buy a volt ohm meter .... Arnold, Don't go buying electrical things until you know you need them ..... most places will not let you carry back electronic items (ever). Many times these won't start sort of things turn into corroded or loose terminals or other very simple type fixes. You can test your solenoid in place or take it out and test it very easily to decide if it works correctly or not. Just supply 12 volt voltage to the small contacts, she should click for you and show continuity across the big contacts. Remember this trick .... I generally make up a nice long fairly substantial red lead with an alligator clip on one end of it to use for troubleshooting bike electrics. Put the clip on the positive on the battery and touch the exposed bare wire on the other end to the red small lead going to the small solenoid contact, energizing it briefly as if it had just gotten a "go" signal from the starter switch. (testing the solenoid in place) |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 05:14:22 I can afford a voltmeter if need be, no problem. My last one fried and never had a need for a new one since. Took the car to work this morning and I'm hoping I'll be able to get a good diagnosis on the bike tonight. I already have the seat off but then it got dark and didnt feel like getting electrocuted :) darn those shorter days. I want to get it fixed before it gets too cold though, come on, there's a few more riding days left I know it. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/10 at 05:25:34 A test light is handy for finding 12 volts. I have 2 ohm meters & a test lite & I still dont like messin with electrical hassles. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 05:35:08 The starter is probably good, I dont think they go bad as quick as solenoids and relays. I have the Clymer manual but the electric diagrams in there give me a headache. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/10 at 05:36:57 You can short around the solenoid easily. Hook 12 volts straight to the starter. Just give the thing a head start run by getting it past the compression stroke. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 05:47:13 I've read touch both large poles with the big bolt on solenoid using a screwdriver and see if it starts. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Routy on 10/12/10 at 05:56:31 Use process of elimination. You can do a whole lot w/ a 12v test light, and a 2 ft 12ga jumper...clip on both ends. And remember, Bill is the only one that doesn't need any test equipment to trouble shoot electrical ! |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Routy on 10/12/10 at 06:03:06 Remember if you connect the large bolts on the starter relay, you are bypassing the relay completely. It you are connecting the battery side to the small terminal, you are bypassing only the starter button.....and wiring inbetween. 2633282B2B22332235470 wrote:
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 06:18:16 So by touching the bolts together, if the bike starts then the solenoid is shot right? That'll be my first test. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by dasch on 10/12/10 at 09:03:37 7F6A7172727B6A7B6C1E0 wrote:
No. It only means the starter is NOT shot. Next step is either the starter solenoid, OR the decomp relay doesn't engage the starter solenoid. That's how it works - when you hit START, you actually send a signal to decompression circuit to start the decomp sequence AND (should) engage the starter solenoid, which, in turn (should) engages the starter. Decomp circuit will ALSO make a click loud enough to be confused with starter solenoid. Keep that in mind. We go backwards with diagnostics. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 09:06:30 Where is the decompression relay located? Is there a way to test it? Jump it in the same manner? |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/10 at 09:42:00 2A3F2427272E3F2E394B0 wrote:
Under tank, just follow the cable. easy test... push starter button If it goes half a turn and stops, it's out of adjustment (too loose) If it goes several turns before it starts, it may be out of adjustment (too tight) |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 10:22:36 Ahhh ok, didnt take the tank off. Pain to drain it but I'll have to do that if the solenoid happens to be good. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by dasch on 10/12/10 at 10:34:04 well... not that easy. Decomp solenoid has nothing to do with this procedure. Yet. You need to check these, in sequence: 1. Battery FULL (please jump from a car to make sure) 2. Starter turns when starter gets 12V (straight + to starter pole) 3. Starter solenoid switches the starter ON when starter solenoid gets 12V 4. Decomp circuit sends 12V to starter solenoid approx. 0.3 seconds after START button is pushed. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 10:41:28 Yea, I think I got it, it's not to hard to test provided the battery is good, it should be, it's 3 months old and never gave me issue. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by mornhm - FSO on 10/12/10 at 11:23:22 65706B686861706176040 wrote:
Batteries can go dead anytime, anywhere. Do yourself a favor, and make sure (probably by jumping from a cage) that you have enough voltage and current to make everything work correctly. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 11:32:24 I know, I know :) I lost my freaking jumper cables during the move, they were always in the cage. Now I really have an excuse to buy new ones. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/12/10 at 14:28:18 Well, looks like I didnt need the jumper cables after all. Shorting the solenoid told me the battery and starters are good, bike started right up. I'll replace the solenoid and hopefully that'll be the end of this misadventure. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Oldfeller on 10/12/10 at 14:41:25 You have solenoid on your brain right now -- test it before you spend $50 on a part you may not need. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Boofer on 10/12/10 at 19:18:04 687D6665656C7D6C7B090 wrote:
Arnold, Your Clymers manual tells how to test the solenoid with OHM meter. As for taking the gas tank off, it ain't that big a deal. I just put a golf tee in the hose and take it off with gas in it. Be careful to not short out anything to power, as usual. When it's full, I just set my small mower gas can on a bucket or block and stick the fuel line in the top and put it on prime. And yes, my tank has to be wiggled to the left to clear the frame. Come on, boys. Let's man up here and work on these bikes. The deeper you go, the more you learn. Anybody can swap parts. It takes a little effort to actually fix anything. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by dasch on 10/13/10 at 01:52:01 7E5D5557545D5D5443310 wrote:
100% behind this. Remember - solenoid is controlled by decomp circuit. Might be one loose cable between the two. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 09:07:53 I got a hold of a working solenoid and it stills behaves the same, the bike will only start when I touch the large poles on the solenoid. When I press the start button and try to start normally all I get is 2 clicks from the decomp solenoid and one click from some kind of relay in the rear. I guess that leaves me to test the decomp solenoid next. I took the gas tank off and I'll do what verslagen1 instructed and see how many turn it goes when I press the start button. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by verslagen1 on 10/16/10 at 09:17:58 1st click is the decomp why do have 2 clicks? idk should be 1 click to rear is starter relay, so far so good but no turn over, no good. will turn over if jump to starter, good. problem is with cable between relay and starter or relay and battery. connect volt meter to starter post and see what volts you get when you push button. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 09:43:24 Well the decomp solenoid clicks once to engage the cable then half a second later clicks again to release it. The start solenoid I have on right now is brand new. I think now that I looked at it that the decomp solenoid is working since it engages the cable. Now it leaves either cabling in between parts or some relay box somewhere? On my way to get a voltmeter now. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by dasch on 10/16/10 at 09:55:11 first click engages decomp. second click dissengage decomp. in between should be a third "click" to engage starter relay. There is no other relays. Decomp control circuit controls the starter relay directly via the Yellow/Black wire. It runs +12 down Y/b to engage starter solenoid. Check (clean and tighten) both ends of Y/B wire for possible loose connection first. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 10:46:13 Just came back with a voltmeter, now the fun begins I guess... |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 11:50:22 Ok, at the black and yellow wire, I get only 6.8V at the starter relay when I press the start switch, shouldnt I get 12V there? The red and black wire gets 12V to the Control Unit DE but coming out the yellow and black wire gets the same 6.8V. Shouldnt this Control Unit DE box send 12V back to the starter relay? That box does click when I press the start button. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by verslagen1 on 10/16/10 at 14:59:10 You are never going to get exactly 12v running around in the wiring. It will drop as it goes thru the control and the wire. what's important is the decomp goes click, so it's getting enough for now. But on the heavy gage wire coming from the battery and going to the starter, you should get close to 12v. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 15:14:06 The decomp does go click. Ok, I just tested the control unit according to the Clymer manual: Timer I gives me 12V then after 0.7secs returns to 0. Timer II gives me 0V then after 0.2secs gives me 6.8V instead of 12V. Everywhere else gets 12V. I now conclude the Control Unit is defective, not enough voltage to the starter relay. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by verslagen1 on 10/16/10 at 15:26:49 disconnect the wire to the starter relay and check it again. I may be that it has a partial short causing it not to get full voltage. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/16/10 at 15:57:09 Yes, I forgot to mention I did as Clymer indicated. I completely unhooked the Control Unit and just gave it current straight from the battery, the + of the battery to pin 1 and 2 and the negative to pin 5. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by verslagen1 on 10/16/10 at 16:54:03 cool, ya up crap creek |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by WD on 10/17/10 at 10:17:48 Mine is the same way, the little relay fried. Something inside it is shorted out. And it took me 2 destroyed batteries inside of 3 months to figure it out. They got pulled down so low they could not be recharged. I'll fix it this winter, already too cold to ride here most of the time. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/17/10 at 16:20:01 My control unit doesnt have enough juice to energize the starter relay so the bike only start when I give 12V to it. I ordered another control unit, part is $70. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Dj12midnit on 10/17/10 at 17:24:25 4B581C0 wrote:
Come up north, still nice and warm here. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by WD on 10/17/10 at 18:20:28 Is your's the bike I see behind a motorhome at WFC occasionally when I'm getting an export container loaded at Darigold? |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/24/10 at 10:33:52 For everyone's info, the Control Unit came in and my bike is now running. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/10 at 11:15:12 Thanks for the final report. Now, go ride the blasted thang! |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by dasch on 10/25/10 at 06:31:13 We didn't help much - we are glad to hear it! ;) |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/25/10 at 06:44:12 Well, electrical is a bi7ch, voltmeter helped though, especially I got it for free (RadioShack clerk was an idiot :). Clymer helped too. But now I have my left blinker going too fast, always something. Oh well, tired of taking the thing apart, for now, it rides good enough. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Boofer on 10/25/10 at 21:35:53 Arnold, I would buy a couple of blinker bulbs and a flasher module (about $3) from Auto Zone or O' Reilly's. The flasher module for cars works just fine. I think mine has two spades in an "L" shape. One of the bulbs is probably shot or the flasher is shot. I'd say bulb as a first guess. Ride on, Bro |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/26/10 at 05:10:35 Just got to work with the bike, 45mins ride. When I left home, blinkers were at normal speed, half way through, left side started flashing fast again. I guess it's intermittent. Also, the high beam blue indicator comes on, it just too faint to see in daylight, this morning it was still dark and I could see it. I must review my wiring I guess. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by babyhog on 10/26/10 at 05:18:48 I think that's what mine did a while back and I found a little corrosion at the bulb contact points.... nothing to do with the wiring. A bit of water had gotten into one of the light housings and caused it. So that may be something else for you to check. |
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Title: Re: Bike wont start Post by Arnold on 10/26/10 at 05:24:06 Cool, something easy to check on, you're right, could be the contact between socket and bulb. The rear signals are brand new, I'll check the front. Actually come to think of it, I'll swap the left and right bulbs and see if I can reproduce the problem that way. |
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