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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> oil?? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1281753780 Message started by jspace on 08/13/10 at 19:43:00 |
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Title: oil?? Post by jspace on 08/13/10 at 19:43:00 getting ready for my bikes first oil change.. just wondering what a good oil would be, and what do you guys use in your savages? seems like my clutch has a small bit of slippage every now and then when i'm shifting into first. don't know if thats from the oil thats already in it or from something else. i've had the bike for about a month (but just got my endorsement last week). i've already put about 100 miles on her in the past couple of days. but i don't know if the oil has ever been changed or not. i got her from a dealer but you never really know if they did anything to the bike at all other then make her a little shinny.. ;) |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by jef.savage on 08/13/10 at 20:01:28 Oh no! Not again!!! |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/13/10 at 20:07:27 Just a word of advice - asking an oil question on a motorcycle board seems to be a good way to get a heated discussion going. However, Suzuki recommends a 10W-40 oil with JASO MA rating. Any brand will do, but that tends to be an argumentative subject as well. The most important thing is to avoid any oil with "energy conserving" on its label. Since you specifically asked, I am using Shell Rotella 15W-40 in mine, and it seems to work just fine. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/13/10 at 20:39:11 Tastes great! |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by BuckHMCC on 08/13/10 at 21:05:13 Change the oil and filter. It's not hard. I've settled on Shell Rotella T6 5W40 for my motorcycles, changing oil every 2500 miles and filter every 5000 miles. Previous owner had used an energy conserving oil in the Savage and that ruined the clutch. Don't do that. Do you have some freeplay in the clutch cable? You should be able to easily fit a quarter between the lever and its housing (like you're putting it into a coin slot). |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by buttgoat1 on 08/13/10 at 21:15:03 less filling! |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by jspace on 08/13/10 at 22:10:39 072C25362B2A440 wrote:
i've been keeping up with the rotella thread and honestly i've never heard of it, so i asked a friend with a bike and he's never heard of it. it sounds like a lot of you guys use it. it must be a good choice. has anyone ever had problems with it? |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/13/10 at 22:11:08 Tastes great! |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by jspace on 08/13/10 at 22:44:01 0D3A2C2407020C0C4F0 wrote:
sometimes when i'm down shifting through the gears i can feel the transmission go through each gear. then i'll put it into first and it (sounds and feels) like teeth kinda grab. i'm pretty mechanical but don't know much about the wet sump clutch.. i don't know if that could be an oil thing, with maybe having the original oil in it.. or if its a tranny issue.. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/13/10 at 23:43:28 2A3330212325400 wrote:
Rotella is good for cleaning out your clutch when you've had an EC oil in it. But if you've been really following the thread you should know that. Rotella is good oil. RotSyn is a little better. and you can't beat the price. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 02:09:28 Durn, I do believe they've got it !! Your new transmission will be a little cobby for the first 5,000 miles as it breaks in. It is an old style cam & dog transmission after all and isn't going to be smmoooth until it is broken in well. Rotella Syn T-6 5w-40 has been noted as having a soothing effect on the transmission, but I doubt even it can totally stop a cobby new transmission from showing its arse periodically, especially when downshifting to the lower gears. Good luck with them oil questions -- ya got yer kevlar underwear on yet? Them boys with the flamethrowers and machine guns will be along directly. ;D |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 04:24:12 I use Klotz MX 15w-50w motorcycle oil,Its not a cheap oil,But its a cheap insurance.Its a Group 5 oil the highest rate for oil. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by ralfyguy on 08/14/10 at 04:50:15 I use Lucas 20W-50 V-TwinFull Syn in summer heat. $9 a quart at O'Reilly's. I use Mobil1 10W-40 V-Twin in winter. $8 a quart. I change oil every 1,500 miles, but that's just the way I do stuff. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/14/10 at 05:12:56 The reason you probably never heard of Shell Rotella is that it is marketed as an oil for Diesel use. It also has the JASO ratings, so is quite suitable for motorcycle use. Rotella 15W-40 is a conventional oil, often referred to as "dino oil". Rotella 5W-40 synthetic is often called "RotSyn." Unless you plan to do a lot of cold-weather riding, the 15W-40 will meet your needs. As far as is known, no 10W-40 oil is "energy conserving." That means there are no low-friction additives such as graphite or molybdenum disulphide, so they shouldn't cause problems with the clutch (which runs in the oil). You can buy your oil by price at Walmart, should you choose, and most likely never have an oil-related problem. If your bike is still under warranty, you might feel better buying the Suzuki oil from your dealership for that first change. It won't perform any better, but it might make your dealer a little happier in case you need warranty work. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Routy on 08/14/10 at 05:23:18 Quote: seems like my clutch has a small bit of slippage every now and then when i'm shifting into first. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure, but it sounds like you're describing a clutch that not disengaging quite enough, more than slipping,.....like gear clatter when shifting into first from neutral ?? In that case you may have too much slack in the clutch cable adjustment, or possibly the engine idling too fast. I just changed oil to Shell Rotella T, only because so many use it, and it was only a buck more for a gallon than the cheapest. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 05:41:17 jspace I think you can see that people here use rotella oil because its cheap,People here also have a lot of cam chain problems.Stick with a motorcycle oil,not a diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by DrunkenDwarf on 08/14/10 at 07:08:36 Can you mix oil? Say I've got a left over quart of Valvoline Motorcycle Oil 10W-40 and a gallon of Shell Rotella T Triple Protection 15W-40. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 07:25:36 Bill, Bill here is good for a humorous one liner that hits your funny bone pretty good, but he is a strongly partisan oil warrior who will spread some disinformation out to a newbie just to get a rise out of the rest of us. The simple truth is, avoid energy star car oils as they can cause your clutch to slip Stay with a last number of 40w or greater. First numbers vary from 10 when you go synthetic because synthetics don't get thick when they are cold. This number helps with winter cold starts and is pretty much meaningless in summer as you engine oil gets hot within about 3 minutes after you start riding (and the second number takes over). Motorcycle JASO rated oils are preferred but not necessary Synthetic oils in a stock Savage motor are not necessary Synthetic oils in a high performance Savage motor may be preferred for heat bullet proofness, but it is not strictly necessary if oil changes are done relatively "frequently". For example, before Rotella Syn 5w40 oil was invented the standard white jug dino Rotella T 15w40 oil was the preferred performance bike oil on a lot of the crotch rocket boards (for a lot of years too). Ditto for the Gold Wing boards, Rotella T was touted by the Wing boys as "best oil/at best price too" and they were instrumental in getting Shell to test it for JASO and for Shell to pay to get it rated so on the jug. (kudos to them Honda GoldWing boys for being all stubborn & persistent) ============================== Parisan information (firing a 338 Laupa Magnum sniper rifle with a 170 grain pure truth match grade information at Bill's fuzzy fraudulent statements) Rotella T and T-6 synthetic ARE motorcycle oils that carry BOTH of the JASO motorcycle ratings right on the jug. For Bill to allude otherwise is disinformation and he knows it ..... Yep, your cam chain is gonna stretch some and only ZDDP has shown to have any preventive effect on that (Society of Automotive Engineers rates ZDDP as the "primary and best oil additive ever found to stop galling and premature wear due to oil film failure"). Rotella products have as much as can be put in oil by today's standards of the very much Savage needed ZDDP additive. ============================== (lobbing a bullshit grenade back at Bill, jest to make him keep his head down) Bill's favorite stuff by his own admission is made from virgin olive oil with English vein drippings in it -- so unless you are a budding vampire who wants to pay double/triple $$ per quart for English flavored Italian salad dressing I'd not pay a lot of attention to Bill's oil recommendations. ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 07:36:24 As far as mixing oil goes, you actually do that every time you change over brands (residual oil in your engine still remains in nooks and crannies inside the engine). No one would recommend doing it on purpose, but factually it happens all the time and the world does keep on spinning .... If I were going to do it I'd put the rest of the little amount into the gearcase and top it off with what you plan to use from now on -- that way the transition gets over with in one oil change rather than doodling along for several changes (should something bad happen you can fix it cleanly with a know "fix" point) But once again, no one would recommend it -- can you use the leftover amount in an oil eating car or lawnmower just as easily? |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Routy on 08/14/10 at 08:04:26 I knew it !! Thats why my cam chain has been floppin around ever since the other day when I changed to RT !! 303B3E3E6465520 wrote:
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 08:37:22 a second bullshit grenade lobbed over the trenches ..... According to Bill, if you will jest pay 3 times more for your Rotella that will fix the cam chain floppy issue right away (oh yeah, ya gotta put some red food coloring in it, too) ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 08:40:59 The Rotella advantage cheap,Disadvantage wasn't made for motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 09:09:27 Bill, your challenge is to prove that any brand of oil was specifically initially made for motorcycles -- I think they were all developed for cars, etc and the existing stuff was given "special additive packages" to meet JASO uses. Then they put a special label on them quart bottles and then charged you double for their "special motorcycle oil". PT Barnum would have loved them for it -- "A sucker is born every minute" sez 'ol PT. And that's what mebbe you are for actually buying the overpriced stuff, too .... Rotella is especially good because it already met all those requirements in its initial formulation and it required no "patchwork" to meet JASO specs. No special additives, no special packaging and no special cost either. And since truckers generally use the stuff in 15 gallon crankcase fill ups, the cost per gallon tends to be quite reasonable for an official motorcycle oil. :D yeah !!! The fact it is a "diesel oil" is also nice for a practical reason, it means it has stronger detergent and surfactant packages in it that will keep your engine nice and clean. This is to our advantage, actually. Rotella T-6 has been used by list members to remove the lingering after effects of energy star contamination (clutch slippage) using Rotella's superior engine clean up properties. It has also been used to scrub up some engines that were so dirty you couldn't tell if there was oil in the window or not -- it was just that filthy inside the engine. Now the oil level view window is nice clear plastic again and the engine innards are all sparkly clean too after only 3 oil changes. Let's see your English flavored salad dressing do that ..... |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 10:37:44 (bill's really starting to sweat now -- his salad dressing in going on Verslagen's Savage test bed soon and we will all soon have empirical numberical knowledge if it works worth a durn or not) ooops, there goes the magical fairy dust .... ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/14/10 at 12:57:35 Bill's strong point is making claims that he either cannot or will not back up. There is little point in listing the claims, because his usual reaction is to attack the person questioning the claims instead of providing data. I expect an attack, shortly. Even now I am donning my Nomex suit. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 13:20:57 Charon, You do know if Verslagen's data sez so, we are gonna have to bow down and kiss Bill's little pinky finger don't you? It ain't a done deal until the data is all tabulated and the delta's generated, but we do have the T-6 baseline now -- completed. OOOOOOOOoooooooh, a real sick making thought, no? (that's the finger he picks his nose with ---- yuck!) All it would really indicate is the relative effectiveness of the two oils in question ..... Rotella T-6 and Klotz. But I don't think Bill would let us forget it, either ----- ever |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/14/10 at 13:41:00 Oldfeller, I hope Verslagen is taking lots of notes, not only of the temperature deltas but of the fuels used ("100% pure gasoline" or E-10) and other variables such as speed. There may be some unseen correlations going on. I finally got tired enough of Bill's insistence on the virtues of Sea Foam to buy a can and try it. I put it in all three of my motorcycles, and have actually run it through two of them. If the weather stays nice the third will follow shortly. So far, the results show no effect at all, as I have been predicting all along. I am sure he will find some way to claim I used it incorrectly. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/10 at 14:10:57 charon, you might not be able to witness any improvement with seafoam. your bikes are probably too well maintained. go find yourself a neglected bike. fill the carb up over nite, put a little in the crankcase. drain all the fluids the next day fill with fresh oil and gas for a real test. but i know i've had an issue with a sticky slide once and a shot of seafoam fixed it. as far as the bullet proof m/c oil, klotz ain't doing it for me. but it could be those nooks and crannies held enough rotsyn to contaminate the 1st weeks running. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/14/10 at 14:32:31 Verslagen, I have been trying to devise some objective method to test Sea Foam for some time. I knew going in the carbs on my bikes were pretty clean, but Bill insisted I'd know what running right was really all about (I have forgotten his exact phraseology and don't care enough to try to look it up). By the way, I figure to put what is left of the Sea Foam in my lawn mowers, one of which has about 450 hours and the other of which has about 350. My thought for a test mule would be a bike with multiple carbs. Plumb it so half of the carbs feed from the main tank. Mount a pony tank somewhere else (handlebars, rear seat, wherever) and plumb it to the other carbs. Fill one tank with fresh clean gasoline, and the other tank with Sea Foam and gasoline. Then see if any differences could be identified. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/14/10 at 14:41:38 You gonna do a full second oil change to make sure it's all Klotz in there so as to remove all possible wiggle room? Save the "just barely used" stuff you drain out and put it back in the bottles -- you can still pollinate your common purple flower pixies with it you know. (it's magic after all) Not that Bill won't still wiggle for all he's worth anyway -- kissing a worm in the butt with a sharp hook will have nothing on 'ol Bill once that final data hook heaves itself into sight. ============================== Still, proof is proof and truth is truth --- if the pink stuff is better we would still say so and take our lickin' like men. Bill however is already a squealin' some (got him premonitions he does) ..... ..... and he ain't even been stuck in the ass on that nasty big old sharp data hook yet .... |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/10 at 15:03:21 So far rotsyn is as good as mobil1 (20w50) or klotz (15w50) in the heat. I ran rotsyn (5w40) all winter long and when I could keep it under 70, there was no appreciable usage (adjusted for leakage). Now that summer is here, it seems that critical speed is lower. I do have enough klotz to last the summer, so I'm going to wring every extra buck out it that I spent. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 15:54:41 Vers a couple of weeks ago you said you were going to test mobil 1 and klotz and now you say you have tested them ::) |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/10 at 16:07:26 7E7570702A2B1C0 wrote:
and your point is? |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 16:15:04 You haven't even tried Mobil or Klotz |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 16:18:11 And Charon don't have the any idea what Sea Foam is for. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/14/10 at 16:35:44 3A3134346E6F580 wrote:
as far as mobil1 goes... try to remember back... way back for you... in the last week... remember we talked about clutch slippage w/suv oil but true m/c mobil1 was tried last year, near the end of summer. this year, klotz, same salad oil and english drippings you use. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/14/10 at 16:55:53 715A53405D5C320 wrote:
charon what are you going to do when the side with the Sea Foam starts running a lot faster than the other side. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/15/10 at 07:54:46 Result #1 = OIL CONSUMPTION So far rotsyn is as good as mobil1 (20w50) or klotz (15w50) in the heat. I ran rotsyn (5w40) all winter long and when I could keep it under 70, there was no appreciable usage (adjusted for leakage). Now that summer is here, it seems that critical speed is lower. ======================================= Now, what does this actually mean to a normal Savage owner? FACT: Higher mileage Savages use oil when run at higher speeds. (running on the interstate or showing your arse in the mountains) What oil you use really doesn't seem to affect this oil usage amount. There is some evidence that the Rotella products stick around pretty good until you get 1,000 miles on a crankcase load, then it begins to exit just like any other oil -- no magic advantage here for either Rotella or Klotz as far as oil usage goes. Rotella/Klotz RESULT = SAME SAME (no advantage either way) |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/15/10 at 08:32:03 vers never even tested Klotz Hes all Bull Sh!t When amsoil compare their oil to other oils they never test Klotz there must be a reason. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/15/10 at 09:24:18 There is some evidence that the Rotella products stick around pretty good until you get 1,000 miles on a crankcase load, then it begins to exit just like any other oil -- This is what Ive found. It usually starts needing oil added more & more often till I change it. Hard to say just what mileage it is when its time to change, since I dont go by the odometer. I just watch how the oil consumption is going. I know when its time for fresh oil. Bill, calling someone a liar can work out to a bad end. I know I am offended that you would call him a liar. IOW,, you need to retract & appologize or risk , not being labeled a liar, but an A55hole of the first order. You dont really want people here all teaming up & hating on ya, now do ya? YOu can disagree all you want, but accusing him of not actually running atest he says hes run? KNowing all the things hes done? Id say youre exhibiting some very poor judgement. I hope you reethink it. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/15/10 at 09:26:49 Bill, Actually, I think he's being understated and kind. I know I am, not claiming any form of victory here, just SAME SAME. In truth, that is the truth. High mileage Savages use oil Low mileage Savages really don't use a lot of oil, but that will come with some age I think So far there is no advantage noted for anybody's oil as far as usage goes, if yours uses oil it will continue to do so no matter which color or flavor your oil is .... No magic bullets here for oil consumption for anybody No loss No win Just same same ============================== Now the odds of me exaggerating any claims for Rotella products SUCK, they would get shot down in a hurry as LOTS of people here use the stuff. If I make a statement like "it hangs around pretty good for the first 1,000 miles then it starts to exit like any other oil" then I expect to either get an immediate "amen brother" or a call of bullshit from a whole host of people, including Charon BECAUSE THEY USE THE STUFF all the time. I will tell the simple truth about Rotella -- I gots no choice. So I can say I'll be fair with ya -- 'cause once again I gots absolutely no choice but to be fair. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/15/10 at 09:47:00 Why do oils stick around better when they are new? The polymerization chains are uniform and new, full length and undamaged The coils of the "can of snakes" that is oil are at full length and are not chopped up at all yet ========================= When the engine and transmission run, the coils get slowly cut up and broken by crush loads and shear loads (think of the gears rolling into and out of engagement) The longer this goes on, the more chopped up the coils become The oil also gets combustion products in it The oil guys refer to this as "initial viscosity loss" and they chart it in their oil comparison tests. The chopping up action is also referred to as "shear loss". All oils lose viscosity over time until they finally reach a steady state and then they just hang in there at about the same number until changed. But the concept explains (good enough for me, anyway) why brand new oil sticks around better than well used oil does |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/15/10 at 09:47:48 726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:
it's too late, the jury is already in on that one. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by babyhog on 08/15/10 at 12:56:44 Poor bill, loves his Klotz, we all know that. What I want to know is has he ever used anything else? |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/15/10 at 13:11:22 Yes I have,Suzuki oil,Mobil1 motorcycle and regular Mobil 1 in motorcycles,Honda motorcycle oil,I do think Klotz is the best, motor quieter,Shifts smoother, Runs cooler.First used their 2 cycle in snowmobiles and 2 cycle motorcycles,1st used it in 1971. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/10 at 00:52:00 Seriously, all teasing aside, Klotz is good oil that was developed out of a very real racing two stroke tradition base. Hard use stuff, them full bore dirt racing two stroke oils .... They use the same tricks in their four stroke stuff, but so what? Combustion aside, you are lubing gears and cylinder walls and anything that is going to survive a combustion explosion and still lube your stuff good is pretty much heat proof enough for me. Best I hope for is SAME SAME in a low performance Savage engine, really all we need is a good dino oil anyway in a bone stock Savage. And you know, I may jest lose this little erl war, depends on the data whats a growing up over in the holler over there in them Kaliforia hills. If Klotz pulls a few degrees less delta on the average on both the head and oil temps (jest plain runs cooler) Bill will win. and then he'll get to be the ugly hillbilly on top .... .... squeeeeeeeee fer me, city boy !!!! (but he will always have to pay 3 times as much for the privilege) :D |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/16/10 at 05:30:37 Oldfeller, you might want to be real careful. Bill67 just took great pains to inform me his username is bill67, not Bill. I'd hate to have you offend him. As you know and we on a four-stroke forum tend to forget, there are considerable differences in the oil needs of two- and four-stroke engines. Oil for the two-stroke doesn't need a dispersant package, nor an acid-fighting package, nor an anti-oxidant package, because it goes in, lubes the engine, sort-of burns, and exits. It is one-pass lubrication, pretty much. It does need a solvent package to keep it mixed with the fuel when used as a pre-mix. The two-stroke literally gets an oil change every time it turns over. Be it noted that the two-stroke motorcycle does have a transmission, and a clutch, and those need oil. That oil does not have to withstand combustion by-products, but they usually use an ordinary motor oil anyway. I rather doubt that any brand of oil is greatly superior to any other. They are all designed to do pretty much the same job, using the same available ingredients. And generally speaking, no modern oil needs any after-market additives to do its job. Motorcyclists like to think the engines on their bikes are very demanding - even finicky - about their oils. Especially the air-cooled ones. But I suspect the ordinary Briggs & Stratton on the ordinary lawn mower has a more demanding job, running as it does wide-open for hours under a considerable load down low in the dirt and dust. Those engines use gear driven camshafts (same gear shearing load on the oil as a transmission) and sliding cam followers just like the Savage. The only truly special item on the motorcycle is the wet clutch. I can't help but wonder whether the wet clutch should be segregated away from the engine oil and run in a bath of ATF. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 05:44:46 Did you ever drive a snowmobile in 1 foot of snow for 20 miles wot its turning full rpm under a heavy load,You need a real oil for that or the engine will blow. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Routy on 08/16/10 at 06:39:33 Few if any 4 stroke engines will run at WOT (no sp limiter) for 20 minutes, no matter what kind of oil is in it ! If you don't believe it, try it. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/10 at 08:33:41 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nOw4e45e3ek/S2Zea-SDe4I/AAAAAAAAALo/QQUjhwY3j9c/s320/7.-Deliverance_imagelarge.jpg It's jest yer typical list erl war, jest the boys a' foolin' round wid each other .... Hold still, now .... we gotta get this twisted chunk of wild growing data outta ya ..... |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by BuckHMCC on 08/16/10 at 08:50:13 My daughter's Savage went through at least 3 previous owners when we got it at 11,500 miles. Maintenance history was a mystery. I suspect the maintenance was not that good as the clutch was on its way out due to use of an energy-conserving oil. At 12,400 miles the cam chain adjuster was out 19.5 mm and we did the VerSlavy mod. I've got a couple of questions for you, bill67: Have you used Klotz from the beginning? How does your cam chain adjuster extension compare to ours? Have you had to VerSlavy it yet? Thanks for responding. I will confirm that higher mileage Savages use oil. At 15K+ miles it's using it at the rate of 1 quart/1500 miles. There are no leaks and no visible smoke out the exhaust. I just keep topping it off. With this rate of consumption I'm going to push my oil change interval to 3750 miles per the owners manual as it's getting a continual supply of fresh oil (does that make it a 3-stroke engine?). By comparison my Bandit uses maybe .3 quart/2500 miles. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 09:43:30 I used suzuki oil from 500 miles to 1100 then Klotz,Im not worried about the cam chain or adjusting the valves,My wifes 1980 gn 400 single went 25000 with nothing done to it then it was traded in.My s40 hasn't used any oil the last 3000 miles almost 5900 on it now, |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 09:48:18 26293328343221232B2532400 wrote:
I'm talking about 2 cycle snowmobile. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/16/10 at 17:46:16 Bill, How many years have you had the bike now? |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/16/10 at 18:36:44 Almost 3 year |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by BuckHMCC on 08/16/10 at 21:50:59 bill67, my point in asking about the extension on your cam chain adjuster was to use it as a measure of how good that Klotz is doing lubricating your engine. When you get to 12,400 miles please measure the extension. If it's a lot less than 19.5 mm, then maybe Klotz is a great oil. But maybe not, because your bike and mine make only two data points. That's not exactly statistically significant. That's the big problem with all this oil war business. It's mostly anecdotal -- "I use oil such-and-such and it works great", but such statements do not constitute proof. It would take a statistican and a controlled trial involving a large number of data points to do that. In the absence of further information, I'll keep to Suzuki's call-out of an oil that meets or exceeds 10W40 API classification SG at the best price I can find. A thought for you all. Anyone expecting to ride a Savage/S40 for more than 30,000 miles? Probably not many. I expect most would agree that after 30,000 miles the bike would be worth next to nothing. Say you change the oil every 2,000 miles. That's 15 oil changes. Boutique oil versus econo oil - difference is about $15 each oil change. That's $225. Compare that to at least a $4000 loss in depreciation and tires and registration fees/taxes and, of course, insurance. It's not a big deal either way assuming either oil gets you to that end point which is likely. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by verslagen1 on 08/16/10 at 23:57:59 Buck I don't think you read bill's reply's. He's done 5,000 miles in 3 years, and has 6k total. 3 years from now he'll have 11k, 6 years, 16k, 9 years, 21k. In 15 years, bill may have a great testimonial for klotz. And I don't get your second point, I have a '96 with 46k and an '88 with it's second engine from a like miled 'o2. What did I pay for both? $2000. I wasn't committed to Syn oil until late in the '96's life. both have verslavies. At this point, I would recommend new cam chains at 50k. Theres no sense to stretching it further. unless you got a super SS chain. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by stinger on 08/17/10 at 00:19:25 Wesson cooking oil with no trans-fats |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/10 at 01:07:40 By his own words, Bill has NEVER even adjusted his valves and he never works on his bike to perform mods, etc. He rides it less than 2,000 miles a year because he has a really very short riding year up there in the Great Lakes area, that I can certainly understand. So, I doubt you are gonna get any usable comparative wear information from Bill ever because as he has said he runs them until they get funky acting then he sells them. Considering this world view, buying the very most expensive best premium oil he can find and "trusting" it to give him minimal wear is all Bill can do for his bike, so he's a doing it. But to claim "zero wear" on a bike you've never even worked on is a bit much --- how would you ever know? ============================ Roll Bill's bike back in your mind to this level of use -- he's still running his original rear tire. Hey, he may even still have his stock brake pads on the front wheel. His bike is still a puppy. At that age level my bike didn't use any oil either, not for another 5,000 miles on top of that. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/17/10 at 04:14:54 1st year only put on 800 miles which was only about 3 months because I was waiting 2 1/2 months for a windshield,I don't like riding without a big windshield,This year isn't over yet.Put new brake pads on at 100 miles,Rear tire is almost bald Bike waiting for me to replace the tire had tire for 6 month.Had several bikes go around 30000 miles and never had to adjust the valves.Valves need adjusting because of wear,So don't use cheap oil. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Charon on 08/17/10 at 06:16:35 Buck, I like your idea of using the cam chain tensioner as an overall wear indicator. But for it to work, one would have to measure the extension on the bike very early its life - ideally before the first start, then at every service interval. Because of build tolerances the extension may not be the same on any two new bikes, so the first measurement would be the zero point. Your comment on bike life was also interesting. I read an article claiming the average life on a motorcycle, from showroom to salvage yard, was about 10K miles. Yes, I know they will run much longer. The short average comes from use patterns. Average bikes get no more than 1-2K per year, riding short distances on nice weekends during nice weather. It takes five or six years to wear out the first tire, during which time the bike depreciates rapidly. The first tire wears out and the owner takes the bike in for a new one and a service. He is stunned by the bill, which will be several hundred dollars. It takes another five years, and another few thousand miles, to wear out the second rear tire and the front, and likely brake pads. At this point the shop charge for both tires, another service, brake pads, and so on is quite near the book value of the bike. Now the bike is ten years old, needs expensive work, and isn't worth much. What happens? Remember that not a lot of people actually work on their vehicles any more. I also liked your point about anecdotal evidence on oil quality. That is the same sort of evidence that exists about fuel and oil additives. I have been unable to find any sort of controlled tests of any of the additives of any sort. I figure if the makers could actually devise a test, have it performed by a reputable testing facility, show their products work, and publish the results they would have done so. Absent those tests, I conclude the products do not work. |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/17/10 at 06:26:41 When you buy a new motorcycle,the first thing you should do is tear it all down and make sure it meets all specs,If it don't take it back to the dealer and tell him you want a new bike that meets specs,When you get the new bike tear it all down to be sure it meets specs. ::) |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/10 at 12:09:17 Bill, how about buy a new bike, perform the routine maintenance on it and adjust the valves whenever they rack up the miles to need it. Oh, that's right -- you buy magical oil. That means you jest don't DO any of that routine maintenance/adjustment stuff and you jest trust the magic to keep you going. Hate to say it old bud, but so far your oil hasn't shown us any magic properties, it is just the SAME SAME as other good oils. No magic. No zero wear. It is all in your head, you simply want to believe the incredible claims because you desperately NEED to. Your exhaust valves are out of tolerance by several thousandths of an inch. Your bike is running sub-par and it has for years now. But you will never know that because you NEVER adjust your valves, tune your air screw, etc. etc. My bike runs a lot better with a correct (minimal lash) valve clearance and a properly tweaked air screw. Acceleration over the entire range is a lot better and the throttle response is a lot crisper. You should try it -- it is well worth the minimal effort. ========================== |
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Title: Re: oil?? Post by bill67 on 08/17/10 at 13:52:26 So far no one has tried Klotz so you don't know anything about a good oil. |
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