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Message started by Drifter on 08/12/10 at 09:58:14

Title: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Drifter on 08/12/10 at 09:58:14

I wonder if Suzuki is going to inject the savage in 2012 when carbs are outlawed or just drop the savage from the line up? FI is the way to go better mileage more torque and runs great from sea level to the mountains. My bet is the savage will get FI!! ;)

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Serowbot on 08/12/10 at 10:09:44

When carb's are outlawed,... only outlaws will have carb's.... :-?...

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Paladin. on 08/12/10 at 12:02:23

12243F30223324560 wrote:

I wonder if Suzuki is going to inject the savage in 2012 when carbs are outlawed....

Outlaw carburetors? Who?? People constantly claim things such as ban carburetors, but they never manage to cite of what the Federals will ban. And the Feds put *everything* on the web.

I have seen that ORV will cleaner in 2012, which is needing! But I have seen anyting by C.A.R.B. or the E.P.A. that will be banning carburetors.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Charon on 08/12/10 at 16:05:13

I don't have any source of "inside information" unavailable to anyone else. Carburetors will not be outlawed, just as they have not been outlawed in the past. But the next tier of emission controls will be impossible to meet using carburetors, as happened years ago with cars. Almost all larger motorcycles are already fuel-injected. Partly, I think, the larger ones got tighter emission restrictions already. Partly the larger ones are more expensive, so it is easier to "build in" the cost of FI equipment.

Suzuki already introduced the TU250, a 250 cc injected Single. I seem to have read the LS650 is already unavailable in Europe, because of emissions. Kawasaki introduced two models of their 250 Ninja, a fuel injected model for Europe and a carbureted version for the USA. Kawasaki claimed a necessary $500 price increase for FI.

What will change to fuel-inject the LS650? It will need a fuel pump, no doubt tank mounted for cooling. That will decrease the tank volume, already complained about. The vacuum petcock will go away. But so will the Reserve, and it will be replaced by some sort of LOW FUEL warning, either a gauge or a blinking light. The carburetor will vanish, but there will still be a throttle body for air control. A mass airflow sensor, an O2 sensor, a throttle position sensor, a computer, a fuel injector, and at least two temperature sensors (air temp and engine temp) will appear. The new computer will probably call for a new ignition box. The new computer may take over for the decompression controller, too. Frankly, I think Suzuki is more likely to drop the model than put the money into it to make it meet new standards.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by BuckHMCC on 08/12/10 at 16:43:43

Anybody have any sales numbers over the years on the Savage/S40? I only rarely see another one on the road. I've seen a larger number parked by the side of the road adorned with a 'For Sale' sign that on the road. I don't think Suzuki will re-engineer this bike for stricter emissions, not with the light demand for it. Besides all that Charon mentions it will need a catalytic converter and maybe a PAIR system, too. They'll want $5995 for a fuel-injected version, same as for the same horsepower, same torque, fuel-injected Royal Enfield thumper. For not much more there are a lot of similarly styled and more powerful V-twins. Or maybe it's time for an all-electric version of the Savage/S40 - with speakers and an amplifier so you can play your favorite engine sound as you go down the road.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Charon on 08/12/10 at 17:18:21

I forgot the catalytic converter. Thanks for bringing it up. Even the carbureted Kawasaki 250 Ninja has a catalytic converter.

The presence of the catalytic converter may make engine oil interesting, as the cat calls for low phosphorus (ZDDP) levels and the valve gear seems to require higher ones. Might need roller cam followers, too.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Boule’tard on 08/12/10 at 17:44:14

Did you guys see on Thumpertalk this dude is fuel injecting his DR650. I bet the same exact rig could be used on a Savage. Thread here: http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=857903

He started in December and is currently getting the A/F map all perfect.. which is hard to do in the garage, so he connected an Asus netbook to the handlebars so he can ride around while the netbook logs the activity, then change fuel maps on the go :D

http://mxrob.com/photogallery/Fuel%20Injection/NetBook_Mounted_opn.JPG

http://mxrob.com/photogallery/Fuel%20Injection/us_install_left.JPG

http://mxrob.com/photogallery/Fuel%20Injection/us_install_Nology.JPG

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Serowbot on 08/12/10 at 18:14:55

476C65766B6A040 wrote:

What will change to fuel-inject the LS650? It will need a fuel pump, no doubt tank mounted for cooling. That will decrease the tank volume, already complained about. The vacuum petcock will go away. But so will the Reserve, and it will be replaced by some sort of LOW FUEL warning, either a gauge or a blinking light. The carburetor will vanish, but there will still be a throttle body for air control. A mass airflow sensor, an O2 sensor, a throttle position sensor, a computer, a fuel injector, and at least two temperature sensors (air temp and engine temp) will appear. The new computer will probably call for a new ignition box. The new computer may take over for the decompression controller, too. Frankly, I think Suzuki is more likely to drop the model than put the money into it to make it meet new standards.

Whew!... and a cat!...

Well,... I don't want all that cr@p,... so I'll just have to keep mine running forever... ;)...

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by gerald.hughes on 08/12/10 at 18:23:16

I am one of those who believes that Suzuki continues to manufacture the Savage precisely because there are almost no costs involved. They have long ago made back the development and design costs, and the materials and actual manufacturing costs are minimal. I don't think that the return at this point would justify the reengineering.

Besides, if they inject, then liquid cooling cannot be far behind, and then you no longer have a Savage. At least not the bike that I love to ride. At that point, I think that I would start looking at vintage bikes. I sure am not turned on by any of the heavy, over powered bikes on the market right now.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Charon on 08/12/10 at 18:30:48

Just think, though. Properly designed fuel injections systems start easily, with no fooling with a choke. The idle speed stays steady, warm or cold. Rejetting is no longer necessary, nor even possible. The backfire goes away, because FI shuts off the fuel during throttle overrun. Were the tank-mounted analog speedo to go away and be replaced by an LCD screen, the computer could display gear selection, RPM, MPH, trip and cumulative odometers,and probably state of the tide.

But I still think Suzuki is more likely to just drop the model.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Max_Morley on 08/12/10 at 19:29:32

From my tired old brain I seem to recall that each dealer is allocated 2 Savages a year, they can trade them off before they take delivery from the distributor. I think the dealer in our town probably sells an average of 1.5 a year. He never has more than 1 on the floor. So volume isn't all that big for Suzuki inc. I'm sure when the cost of the new technology out weights the projected sales, it is an orphan. Max

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by John_D FSO on 08/13/10 at 00:11:52

I usually only see one or two at the local dealer, and that's early in the year. They say they can't keep 'em around long, there's always someone interested. Heck, when I traded mine in, they said they already had someone interested in the next one they got in on trade. ;D

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by LANCER on 08/13/10 at 02:13:52

http://suzukicycles.com/~/media/Product/Cycles/TU250X/2011/TU250X_Blk_Gray.ashx?w=439&h=294
This little 250 was brought out in a standard package with FI and its not seen on the sales floor any more than the LS650.
Suzuki uses the LS650 as a low price sales leader for the cruiser line, like Yamaha uses the 650 vtwin. It is a marketing ploy and since Suzuki can produce it for next to nothing they just keep it alive for advertising purposes.
Taking the FI from the little 250 and adapting it to the LS650 would cost next to nothing. It would give Suzuki a chance to boast that they now have ALL FI CRUISER ENGINES ... AREN'T WE GREAT !
Makes for good advertising stuff.

The milage of the LS650 would go up ... good for advertising
power would go up ...good for advertising
ease of starting would be better...good for advertising
smoother/cooler running...good for advertising

Suzuki wants to sell the bigger MORE EXPENSIVE vtwins but they NEED the low price of the LS650 to bring the bodies into the showroom so they can say LOOK AT THESE BEAUTIFUL VTWINS...MORE POWER...BETTER SOUND...MORE CHICKS ! etc etc etc
Its easy for the salesmen to say "the LS650 is out of stock right now, so why don't you just buy this bigger more expensive vtwin so you can ride out on a bike today !"

TU250
MSRP Coming Soon.Tradition comes alive in the 2011 Suzuki TU250. This classically styled motorcycle comes with spoked wheels, a round headlight and a low-slung tapered muffler. But don’t let the retro-look fool you—at its heart is a modern, fuel-injected single-cylinder Suzuki engine. This complete package is a classic standard motorcycle that matches modern conveniences and reliable performance with a fuel-efficient ride.

The TU250 is an economical, user-friendly standard motorcycle with high-quality features, traditional style, coupled with modern engine performance..

Key Features
Suzuki fuel injection provides better fuel efficiency, strong throttle response and easy starting.Engine Features
The TU250's 249cc, four-stroke, single-cylinder, air-cooled, SOHC engine is equipped with Suzuki's industry-leading fuel injection system. This fuel-efficient engine produces strong, low-rpm torque, which makes the TU250 a perfect choice for the city rider.
SCEM (Suzuki Composite Electrochemical Material) cylinder allows for improved heat transfer, lightweight and tighter piston clearance.The TU250's digitally controlled CDI ignition system provides optimum ignition timing at all engine speeds.
The TU250's muffler is outfitted with a catalytic converter and O2 feedback system for cleaner exhaust emissions.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by PerrydaSavage on 08/13/10 at 03:36:40

The TU250 is a fabulous reincarnation of the venerable GZ250 Marauder ... agree with the points made on how it's F.I. system could be rather easily adapted to the LS650, but personally I think the LS's days are numbered in it's present form ... I would like to fantasize that maybe it'll be ressurected as a TU650!! ... but I am not holding my breath ...
Sadly, Suzuki may decide to abandon the 650cc segment of the Cruiser market altogether, which leaves only Yamaha holding down that fort with it's very nice (but waaaay overweight) V-Star (I guess you could include Kawi's EN500 Vulcan here though) ... even Honda has dropped their VLX600 Shadow ... what I'd like to see from Suzuki is a retro, Bobber-styled F.I. 650cc air-cooled parallel twin (go for same marketing segment as Harley's 883 Iron and Honda's Shadow Phantom, but more attractively priced) ... but I'm sure that's a crack-pipe dream for sure! LOL! ;D

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by LANCER on 08/13/10 at 03:40:52

576275757E6366546671666062070 wrote:

YES YES YES ! !

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Charon on 08/13/10 at 05:19:39

I just spent a few minutes looking at cruisers from assorted makers. Yamaha's carbureted cruisers include their 250 Star (nee Virago) and the V-Star 650. Kawasaki seems to have dropped the 500 Vulcan (and the 500 Ninja), and their smallest cruiser is the 900 Vulcan with FI. Honda still has the carbureted Rebel, but no other carbureted cruisers. Suzuki still has the S40, the only Single in the lot. Wonder if the rest of the carbureted crowd will go away in a year or so? If so, what replaces them?

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by bill67 on 08/13/10 at 07:38:28

After driving a few FI motorcycles I like it,The S40 would have more power and get better mileage with it FI.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by LANCER on 08/13/10 at 07:53:48

yep, with FI on the S40 and a factory designed fuel map for efficiency and milage it would likely be in the 70+ mpg range
change it from a cruiser and put it in a standard frame setup like the TU and they could sell it for a high milage commuter

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by ralfyguy on 08/13/10 at 10:31:37

I thought about getting a Boulevard C50 like my brother in law has additionally to my S40. It's fuel injected and it runs sweet. He even has some sort of performance module in there. How much HP does that 800 V-Twin have. I tried to find out over the internet, but I can't get any info on that. Acceleration is about the same, but on top end his pulls away.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by babyhog on 08/13/10 at 11:29:34

41525F554A54464A330 wrote:

The C50 was the Volusia prior to 2005. Visit http://www.volusiariders.com/ I'm a member there too. Some pretty good folks.

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Drifter on 08/13/10 at 14:53:54

In so many words, if a carb cant meet emission standards there are 2 choices drop the model or add FI. in either case the carb is gone.....so not much difference than saying carbs are banned in 2012!

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by John_D FSO on 08/16/10 at 14:31:13

676465686A70090 wrote:

[quote author=41525F554A54464A330 link=1281632295/15#18 date=1281720697]I thought about getting a Boulevard C50 like my brother in law has additionally to my S40. It's fuel injected and it runs sweet. He even has some sort of performance module in there. How much HP does that 800 V-Twin have. I tried to find out over the internet, but I can't get any info on that. Acceleration is about the same, but on top end his pulls away.

The C50 was the Volusia prior to 2005. Visit http://www.volusiariders.com/ I'm a member there too. Some pretty good folks.[/quote]
Me too! If I'm remembering right, I saw somewhere that it's stock rating is in the neighborhood of 50hp, but don't quote me on that. It won't win you any races, but it can get you moving quick enough, and seems happy cruizing anywhere from 50mph up to 80, although the gearing's a little low to go much over that for long distances. In fact, a lot of people swap out the rear gears for better ratios.

Back to the subject at hand. If they came out with a TU650, I'd be all over that. The 250 looks great, but don't think they'd haul me around on the freeway real good. ::) I'd also love to see FI on the Savage, and I think they'd keep selling enough of them to pay for the investment of making the modifications to the design. Heck, they never seem to keep them on the floors the way they are now!

And I'd also noticed that the Vulcan 500 is gone now. I've seen some old stock ones at a couple dealers still. If they're around this time next year, a person could probably get a real good deal on one!

Title: Re: Fuel Injected Savage.
Post by Skid Mark on 08/16/10 at 14:57:26

I agree with John. The FI C50 is a great cruiser. Cold starts with just a touch of the switch, idles and warms up smoothly. With FI on the 250, could it be that much more work to get it on a 650?