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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Coil or Ignitor? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1280690147 Message started by LWRider on 08/01/10 at 12:15:47 |
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Title: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/01/10 at 12:15:47 I have been slowly working at getting my old Savage to run. I did have it running earlier, but went back to working on the wiring as much of the system was bypassed by the former owner, such as the clutch switch, the decompression system, the neutral switch, et al. I worked slowly and methodically yesterday putting all the wiring back to rights with a new decomp controller in place. I buttoned it all up yesterday afternoon and today took it out to start it and hopefully give it its first road test. No luck, although I could hear and see ther decomp working now the motor would not start. As I mentioned earlier I had gotten it started before, but it took lots of turnign over and recharging to get it to fire then. Today, I got nothing. It didn't even attemtp to fire. So, off went the seat and tank again. First things first. I checked the resistance of the coil and although I had no choice but to test it cold (the manual said to do it warm) both resistance measurements were spot on. Next, I hooked my spark tester up to the spark plug lead, snapped it onto a head fin, and hit the starter. I got a spark (weak) for just an instant and then nothing. I checked continuity for the leads between the ignitor and the coil and both were good. Just for good measure I sprayed the contacts down with contact cleaner and cleaned up the coil temrinals and then reattached everything, hooked up the spark tester again, and got the same results--a spark, then nothing. So, my conclusion so far is I have a bad ignitor, or perhaps still it is a bad coil with an intermittent failure/success. The book gives me no way to test the ignitor, so I may call Suzuki next time they are open and see what they would charge to bench test mine. There are slews on ebay, but I am a bit leary of buying one of these used just on the word of the seller that it is "good." Unfortunately, new is around $250. I might even be willing to pay that if I can be sure that is the problem. Of course, I could buy a (cheaper) new coil first and eliminate that as the culprit. Any idea would be appreciated. Any alternative coil I could buy? Cheers, Mike, sparkless in Florida |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by thumperclone on 08/01/10 at 16:20:26 page 6-7 0f the ssm has the resistance chart for the ignitor unit.. can post values later if you need them |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 04:58:48 I don't have ssm (Suzuki Service Manual? I assume). I have the Clymers manual. |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by jef.savage on 08/02/10 at 06:24:07 When I lost spark I swapped out the coil and CDI and still got nothing. I had to replace the signal generator (part of the alternator). |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 06:32:58 27282B633E2E223B242121284D0 wrote:
You know, I have been thinking about that. That seems to be the only other componenet that might be related to this symptom. Is there a way to check the signal generator (I think Clymer's wiring diagram calls it the "pickup coil.")? |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 06:50:32 I just looked at Clymer's and they call it a "pulse generator," a "signal generator," and a "pickup coil." I assume these are all the same thing? The part that sits beside the stator under the left cover? Clymer's also states "The signal generator is part of the alternator stator coil assembly and cannot be replaced separately. . . . the stator asembly must be replaced . . . " Did you replace just the signal generator or did you replace the entire stator assembly? BTW, Clymer's does have a test and says the resistance should be between 200 and 240 ohms. I will go out an check that in a little bit. Thanks, Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by thumperclone on 08/02/10 at 07:10:35 4D565368656473010 wrote:
You know, I have been thinking about that. That seems to be the only other componenet that might be related to this symptom. Is there a way to check the signal generator (I think Clymer's wiring diagram calls it the "pickup coil.")? [/quote] ssm= suzuki service manual PICK UP COIL resistance 220 ohms plus or minus 20% orange-green |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 07:22:20 Just checked the resistance and got 230 ohms, right where it should be. I also checked continuity from the plug to the ingnitor plug and it was good as well. The signal generator does not seem to be the problem, for better or worse. Those values for checking the ingitor would be appreciated! Thanks. At least, one by one things are getting narrowed down. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by jef.savage on 08/02/10 at 11:20:17 I'm not familiar with the spark tester you mentioned. Does that rule out a bad plug? Have you tried a new plug? |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 11:28:15 Yes, the tester I have plugs into the spark plug lead on one end and clips to the cylinder head (or anyground) on the other. There are two screws in a plastic body and you can open or close the gap between them. When you turn the bike over you can watch the spark jump the gap and it is easy to see against the black plastic body. You can open the gap and see how far the spark will jup as a guide to how strong it is. Very handy tool, available at any auto supply store. No need to hand on to that spark plug anymore. I did have a brand new and correctly gapped plug in the bike when I was turnign it over, btw. When I tested mine I got a spark, but just for an instant, which jumped a very short gap. The spark was not bright blue, but rather weak looking with tinges of yellow. When turning the bike over, as long as you keep the starter button depressed you should see the spark, but mine lit once and was gone, the starter motor whirring on by itself producing nothing. Do you have the testing numbers and procedure for the igniter unit? I sure would like to confirm it's bad (or affirm it is good) before turning over some serious $ (for me) for another. Also, I see that later models have a different igniter, at least the connector looks different. How specific to the year of the motor are these? Can I use only one from a '86 or can I use one from a later eyar or range of years? TIA Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by thumperclone on 08/02/10 at 16:07:40 ignitor unit 5 terminals on top 1>5 4 terminals bottom 7>10 (blank where 6 would be) 1 orange to pick up coil 2,3,4 no connection 5 blk/yel to ign coil primary winding 7 blk to starter relay 8 grn to pick up coil 9 org/wh to ign switch 10 blk/wh GROUND pos probe neg probe K OHMS 1 5 infinity 7 300 8 500 9 200 10 200 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 1 20 7 30 8 20 9 4.5 10 2.6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 1 45 5 infinity 8 45 9 18 10 17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 1 150 5 infinity 7 100 9 75 10 75 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 1 11 5 inf 7 17 8 11 10 2.4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10 1 7 5 inf 7 20 8 7 9 2.4 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE: "CAUTION: As capacitors, diodes, etc. are used inside this ignitor unit, the resistance values will differ when an ohmmeter other than SUZUKI pocket tester is used." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- imo thats^ bull -------------------- hope the chart helps good luck let us know.... T.C. |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 17:43:27 You da Man! Thanks a lot! I will go grab my tester and check it tonight! Cheers, Mike, who owes you a beer |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by thumperclone on 08/02/10 at 17:54:55 0C171229242532400 wrote:
i like BEER!!! |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/02/10 at 19:00:57 I got nothing like that at all. And they were inconsistent to boot. Here are my results roughly (last column). pos probe neg probe K OHMS 1 5 infinity 642 7 300 373 8 500 473 9 200 101 10 200 45 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 1 20 Inf 7 30 Inf 8 20 Inf 9 4.5 Inf 10 2.6 Inf -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 1 45 Inf 5 infinity 45 8 45 92 9 18 51 10 17 26 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 1 150 Inf 5 infinity 85 7 100 70 9 75 95 10 75 43 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 1 11 Inf 5 inf 55 7 17 46 8 11 110 10 2.4 5.5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10 1 7 Inf 5 inf 3.56 7 20 16 8 7 Inf 9 2.4 4.35 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guess I will take the unti to Suzuki if they give me a fair price for testing it, just to be certain I have not screwed up somewhere in my measurements. I found a couple good candidates on ebay. Not the exact year, but they both are the same style. Thanks, everything else I have to go on gets me closer to riding. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/03/10 at 14:48:32 Suzuki would not check the igniter. Apprently they themselves have no confidence in their testing procedure. lol Of course, they offered to look at the whole bike for $60. I ordered a salvaged igniter on ebay from Pin Wall Cycles for just a bit more than they wanted to charge "to look at it." I'll report back what happens with the new one. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by Charon on 08/03/10 at 15:11:26 I spent a long time working in electronics. The only truly reliable way to test a complex assembly such as the ignition box is substitution. Put in a new one - if the system works, the old one was bad. Even back in the "old days" when I spent a lot of time testing vacuum tubes (the electronic kind, not hoses) we were told that tube testers would identify bad tubes, but they could never tell you for sure you had a good tube. The only sure test was whether it worked in the circuit. |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/10/10 at 11:28:28 Just to followup--I finally received a new igniter yesterday and today took the bike outside to try and start it. It started right up--after I remembered I had to hold the clutch as I had fixed the wiring to make all that stuff now work. I wish I had remebered that before I had pulled the tank and saddle once again to check the wiring. duh! I have quite a bit of backfiring and also may have an exhaust leak at the exhaust port connection. I also have quite a bit of oil around the exhaust along with the resultant smoke. I guess I need to pull the head cover and fix that plug. I am going to try to take it out aroudn the block tonight if the weather cooperates and see how it runs thorugh the gears. Then back in the garage to do that plug repair and perhaps an exhaust gasket replacement. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by Digger on 08/11/10 at 20:34:59 Congrats! Keep the updates coming! |
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Title: Re: Coil or Ignitor? Post by LWRider on 08/12/10 at 05:02:22 I did a test ride yesterday and though I had backfiring and coughing/hesitation when applying throttle, after a few blocks that all smoothed out and went away. I was able to test all four gears and they all worked flawlessly as did the brakes, speedo, and all the electrical. It even idled nicely with my hand off the throttle, once I set the idle set screw up a bit. When I got back, the throttle on idle was high, so I guess once it got over its little hissy fit it was running more efficiently and I needed to lower that idle set screw back to normal. Thumperclone, thans for those testing numbers; it sure helped me solve this issue. Cheers, Mike |
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