|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Lean Carb Issue /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1280539213 Message started by Savager on 07/30/10 at 18:20:13 |
|
Title: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/30/10 at 18:20:13 When riding at a cruising speed the bike seems sluggish, but if I pull the choke/richener plunger out one click it rides great. I'd just normally ride it like this except that whenever I switch gears it revs a little between the shifts which is annoying. I looked under the carb for a mixture screw to see if I could richen it, but it seems there isn't one, and according to the Clymer the ratio is adjusted through raising or lowering the float. I don't think the float needs adjustment as I'm pretty sure the carb is a virgin. I've read that some have richened through a bigger main jet, changing the 145 to a 150, but I've also read of a few turning their mixture screw out a half a turn. I'm confused as I don't see on my 1996, or in the Clymer, a mixture screw. :-/ Any help? TIA |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by bill67 on 07/30/10 at 18:25:27 That mixture screw is on the right side of the carb its covered with a plug you have to drill a small hole then put a screw in the hole and pull the plug out. Turn the screw cc clock wise to richen. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by verslagen1 on 07/30/10 at 19:04:46 just as bill said, small brass plug on the forward side of the carb, about top of the intake. be careful not to drill thru and booger up the screw head or you'll be up nuts creek. search 'idle mixture plug' for better instructions. Yes, a 150 will probably do you good, also you might try a little carb cleaner like seafoam every once in a while. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Routy on 07/30/10 at 22:13:02 At light throttle, 2nd gear, 30mph, just kinda loafin down the street, mine surged quite badly. W/ the choke on 1 click it ran perfect. I elected to raise the main jet metering rod just a touch, like about 1/16th,....or .055 (normally called the white spacer mod) After the mod it runs perfect,.....if there is such a thing. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/30/10 at 22:48:10 Wow thanks fellows for such prompt responses; however I found it on my own shortly after writing the post after a little harder look. I still appreciate the diligence though, and any future advice I’m grateful for. Carbs I've tuned in the past have usually have had the mixture screws on the bottom; that's what confused me (and the Clymer was of no help). 2 Suzuki’s and even a Harley had them on the bottom, but I guess I still have a lot to learn. Nevertheless, I turned it out half a turn, then a full turn, then two full turns, and then it got hard to turn after 2.5 turns. It runs the same no matter where I put it. I even tightened it all the way down, and it still ran the same (but way too lean and smoking). Thus I've set it back to where it was at about 2 turns CCW. I guess I was wrong on that virgin thing as the plug was already removed before I got to it. I really didn’t want to have to do it, but it looks like the carb will have to come off if this issues ever gonna get corrected. At least it’s only one carb [ch61514]. It’s been so many years since I’ve monkeyed with a carb in depth. I’m a little lost. The bike opens up real well; it’s just cruisin’ at 45mph in 5th gear that causes her to stumble. If I pop that choke out a notch she’s fine though; depressing. BTW Verslagen, thanks for your hard work on the cam tensioner mod. Mine was just about to pop when I caught it and took it to the welder for an extension and a second hole. I would have been cryin’ if that thing would’ve come out. I really appreciate the insight. Routy, thanks for the direction. Any more suggestions on the carb will be seriously considered. This website http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/motorcycle_jet_kits_carburetion/index.html has cleaned off some of my rust, and I’ve got the throttle all marked with masking tape with ¼ gradations and the grip marked with an indicator, as is suggested, ready for my next ride to determine which part of the circuit needs tweakin’. :-? |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/30/10 at 22:55:32 Routy, according to the article on the said website I'm thinking your suggestion is the fix. I'm guessing I might be able to get the top of the carb and diaphragm/slide out to raise the needle w/o removing the carb, no? |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by LANCER on 07/31/10 at 03:43:44 4A717B735077776E7D6A180 wrote:
The removal of the carb top and needle adjustment will help the midrange but your issue with the pilot adjusting screw and lack of response regardless of how you turn it is another problem. While you have the carb off pull out all of the jets and clean all passageways. some of them are VERY SMALL so have tiny wire on hand to use for clearing out those holes. the little cover on the right side of carb body, held with 3 screws, has several passageways that go to bowl, choke, top and intake side of bore. small brass tube in bowl area has hole in the very end of it and also 2 holes crossways filter side of carb intake has small hole that goes straight to pilot circuit lots of fun http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A7%3A%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3389%3B554%3C8339nu0mrj http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A82%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3389%3B4997%3B339nu0mrj http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A86%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3389%3B554%3C2339nu0mrj PHOTOS FROM "SAVAGE CD" |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Routy on 07/31/10 at 08:26:36 3209030B280F0F160512600 wrote:
I did the white spacer mod w/o removing the carb. I elected to do the metering rod adjustment because from info I got here, this rod used to be slotted adjustable, till the EPA started dictating fixed carb adjustments. But yes, do make sure there is not something else causing the lean condition before you make adjustments. And a caution,...if you ever do the white spacer mod, do not mess up the heads on those 2 little bitty screws ! Get a brand new flips driver and a heavyweight guy to lean on that driver,.....or get Lancer's (HF) mini impact driver. Don'tcha just love Lancer's carb details ! |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by ralfyguy on 07/31/10 at 10:09:30 I'm amazed by how people managed to do the white spacer without removing the carb. On my bike it was impossible to get the screws out without removing it. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/31/10 at 11:11:05 Lancer, I hear what you’re saying, and I neglected to mention the petcock was accidentally on pri (reserve) when I was making the mixture screw adjustments; maybe that would make a difference? I was also considering that the pilot jet may need to be enlarged (or have “bleeder” wholes if the size that’s in there doesn’t already). Here’s what I ended up doing that seems to have helped roughly 80% of the problem. I was able to get the jet needle out w/o removing the carb (ralfguy it takes determination and a little skill, but it’s entirely possible and the tab that holds the throttle cable— on the front left screw— is a little in the way; I didn’t reinstall it after I removed the diaphragm assembly) I found a little black washer I acquired from the hardware store (I think from the plumbing section) left over from a DIY jet kit (not some overpriced Dynojet) I put in a GS500e years ago, but it is only .03” not the .055” in thickness of Routy’s, nevertheless I put it under washer “B” [“B” being the small metal washer and “A” being the larger nylon washer] with little improvement as the result. Therefore I decided to swap washers “A” and “B’s” position on the needle, keeping my black .03 paired with “B”. I figured the worst case scenario is it’d run like trash, but lo and behold it seems that once the bike is warm it runs just like it does with the choke out a notch. That’s right that big fat nylon manila colored “A” washer has become my “white spacer mod” for now at least. IT FEELS RELATIVELY GOOD TOO, with just a slight slug or surge that really is hard to notice, but accounts for the remaining %20 of the problem alluded to earlier. However I still have yet to adjust the pilot screw in accordance with the 2 paragraphs under “Pilot circuit; 0 to 1/4 throttle” section from the article on the website I posted earlier. Hopefully I can dial it in and be done. If not the carb will have to eventually come off, be cleaned and perhaps even a larger pilot jet order from someone, but not Dynojet especially since they only list years “00-10”. Thanks for all of the help and illustrations. I’ll definitely follow up on my results of the air mixture tuning later on today to see if that heals the issue entirely. TIA for any more interaction/suggestions. PS I was unable to post a diagram of the needle and washers A & B to help explain myself more clearly. Is this because I’m not a “Full Member” or “Serious Thumper”? Thanks again for the help. [smiley=dankk2.gif] |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by LANCER on 07/31/10 at 11:43:03 The carb details are from the SAVAGE CD which was put together by Savage_Greg a couple of years ago. It is the next best thing to a shop manual. so you were able to use the black washer to lift the needle a little and richen the midrange and gain some performance. Hopefully, your pilot circuit will clear itself out without you having to disassemble the carb for a full monty clean fest. jets with bleed holes do not flow more fuel than those without bleed holes, they just make transitioning from one throttle setting to another a bit smoother. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/31/10 at 13:18:58 "so you were able to use the black washer to lift the needle a little and richen the midrange and gain some performance." Actually I used the stock nylon washer that's already in there; instead of it sitting on top of the circlip it now resides below it thus having raised the needle substantially [maybe too much?]. The black washer [along with the metal washer that used to sit between the circlip and the spring] now sit on top of the circlip where the stock nylon washer used to be before I moved it below the circlip. This may've been a bad move, but it seems to have made an improvement for now. I still haven't had a chance to really dial in the mixture screw which will help me know if it was the right change. I hate stinkin’ carbs! >:( I know they're cheaper and lighter than EFI systems, and I think less prone to attributing to engine overheating though. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by LANCER on 07/31/10 at 13:33:12 5E656F674463637A697E0C0 wrote:
like any mechanical/electrical device, as long as they function correctly they are nice to have but when malfunctioning they are a pain in the buttt. yep. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/31/10 at 20:47:56 I put all 3 washers under the circlip and still the same 80%, I'm guessing the pilot jet needs to go up a size since cruisin' speed is at about 1/5 throttle, and that's were the subtle stumble is. Any advice is still appreciated. [smiley=happy.gif] |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Routy on 07/31/10 at 21:28:20 Maybe its my fault for neglecting to say that I did remove the fuel tank to do the wht spacer mod. But seems some have done it w/o removing neither the carb nor the tank. But I sure don't know how. 10030E041B05171B620 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 07/31/10 at 21:36:16 I need to go ride another Savage to see if this extremely subtle sluggishness in 5th gear at around 45mph is just natural for the bike. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 08:03:53 "Maybe its my fault for neglecting to say that I did remove the fuel tank to do the wht spacer mod. But seems some have done it w/o removing neither the carb nor the tank. But I sure don't know how." ralfyguy wrote on Yesterday at 10:09:30: I'm amazed by how people managed to do the white spacer without removing the carb. On my bike it was impossible to get the screws out without removing it. Yes ralfguy & Routy, I guess I was presuming the work was done w/ the tank off :o |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 14:10:04 Alright Lancer, the carbs comin' off :-[ |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 15:48:22 what a B!T#% that was to get off and apart, I'm thinking of dropping what is non removable from the carb into a pot of boiling water [smiley=bath.gif] per the info in this article http://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Clean-a-Motorcycle-Carburetor,-The-Right-Way&id=1460030 Anyone ever tried this before? |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by bill67 on 08/01/10 at 17:23:47 I would put some Sea Foam in the gas tank to clean the carb. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 17:31:05 Thanks Bill, heres that website with pics http://cycles.evanfell.com/2008/09/how-to-clean-a-motorcycle-carburetor-the-right-way/ |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 17:33:40 found a jet in the top side clogged (under the diaphragm), it's the smallest of the 4 brass jets, and the bristle of a toothbrush might make it through the hole ;) |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by bill67 on 08/01/10 at 17:35:25 I've been driving motorcycle 40 years and never had to take a carb apart to clean. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by LANCER on 08/01/10 at 19:33:05 252E2B2B7170470 wrote:
wow, that is fortunate every single 80's model savage carb I have seen has needed severe cleaning, and over half of the 90's models have needed it. there is lots of crud out there on the road |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by bill67 on 08/01/10 at 19:42:22 How doe that get in your carb if you have a stock air cleaner. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by Savager on 08/01/10 at 23:37:26 Bill, it's bad, unfiltered or aged gas that I think is the primary problem. Well the bike performs @ 95% now :) , I think the pilot jet may be too lean in these from the factory. I've got a 40 w/ bleed holes I never used from my sold GS500 that I may bore slightly larger than the 52.5 if I can borrow the boring tool from a canic I know, as well as get the old pilot out w/o taking the carb off again. Anyone ever remove the bowl and bottom jets w/ the carb on the bike? |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by LANCER on 08/02/10 at 02:48:04 704B41496A4D4D544750220 wrote:
It is doable. Most of the crud found in the old carbs is from old fuel that was left in the carbs as they sat unused for years; and of course those left outside in the elements were the worst. It goes from gummy to hard varnish, but there is usually plenty of grit to go with it so it is getting in there dispite the stock filtering system Take a close look at the filter mount...just 1 screw on the outside of the box holds the filter in place, leaving the rest of it to flop/vibrate around when running....very easy for unfiltered air to get in. Some of the bikes which are left inside garages or sheds at least were started on occasion; at least more so than those left outside. Not sure why that is so unless those who keep them in covered storage just take better care of equipment in general. But that is what I have found over the years when operating on the carbs The plastic/rubber piece on the choke assembly which screws in to secure it, that is probably most damaged part of an old carb, even more than the pilot air adjusting screw. I have to order replacements frequently for a rebuild. |
|
Title: Re: Lean Carb Issue Post by bill67 on 08/02/10 at 04:24:31 5F646E664562627B687F0D0 wrote:
Yes thats the only way I change jets is with the carb in place its easy to do,I never take anything apart I don't have to. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |