|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> SeaFoam? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1278521129 Message started by babyhog on 07/07/10 at 09:45:29 |
|
Title: SeaFoam? Post by babyhog on 07/07/10 at 09:45:29 Ok, there are so many comments on this forum about SeaFoam. SeaFoam this, SeaFoam that... I don't know a darn thing about SeaFoam. There are a few SeaFoam products, so what are we talking about? Motor Treatment, Trans Tune, Deep Creep??? I just noticed where Digger told Cursal that its not a good idea to put SeaFoam in the crankcase, but according to SeaFoam's website, it says its fine. see bullet - "After using SeaFoam, do I need to change my oil" http://www.seafoamsales.com/gasoline-engine-faqs.html#nogo also, the next to last bullet mentions motorcycles, so they haven't forgotten about us. So..... tell me all about SeaFoam, so I don't have to read their entire website, and still not understand. ;) |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/07/10 at 10:33:49 You want the motor treatment its ok to put it in the oil,I've none it to cars and motorcycles,The can tells how much to use in oil and gasoline.You don't have to change the oil after you use it in the oil. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Oldnewguy on 07/07/10 at 12:14:30 My can says that it is a gas stablizer, drying agent, gunk cleaner, and a whole host of other things. I don't really measure it, but put about a shot glass in my tank every so often. I also use it in all of my other stuff like mowers, etc. Good protection from shelac in winter storage. :) |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Charon on 07/07/10 at 13:50:33 The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Seafoam says it contains about half "pale oil" (20w motor oil); about a third naptha, and about a sixth isopropyl alcohol. I say "about" because apparently there are two or three formulations differing slightly in their composition. Seafoam's website says it was originally developed in about 1942 to clean lacquer and varnish from clogged outboard carburetors. Let's look at these things. Outboards of the era used premix, that is, gas mixed with oil. If someone poured a solvent into a carburetor to clean out the grunge, then started the outboard, it would be running with no oil and might be damaged. This is probably why Seafoam included oil. Naptha is not very different from gasoline, and in fact is sold as "white gas" or Coleman fuel. It also sold as lighter fluid and spot remover. It will dissolve at least some deposits, but so will gasoline. Isopropyl alcohol, also known as rubbing alcohol, is another solvent and will assist in dissolving carburetor deposits. It will also attract at least a little water and help move it through the system. Four-stroke engines do not need oil in their fuel. Thus, the "pale oil" is of very little value. Gasoline is itself a very light oil and will provide plenty of lubrication for carburetor parts, especially as those carb parts normally run wet with gasoline anyway. Little comment is needed on the naptha, since it is almost indistinguishable from gasoline. Seafoam's website says it will remove small amounts of water, but goes on to say liquid water will need to be drained and that the Seafoam will not remove it. In any case, much US gasoline has ethanol (another alcohol) added anyway, and in quantities far greater than the small amount in Seafoam. For use in engine oil, the little bit of 20W oil will have almost no effect. By the time the engine oil gets up to temperature, the naptha and isopropyl alcohol will have evaporated out, and thus will have essentially no effect either. Seafoam has been around for a long time. It has a lot of believers and a lot of anecdotal testimony as to its effectiveness. But, as far as I have been able to find, there have been no actual tests of its effectiveness. The conclusion I reach is that it is unlikely to do either good or harm. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by cursal on 07/07/10 at 14:20:58 Yep I did put it in my oil. I can see putting it in gas with no worries. Although, I did not think about using it on a wet-clutch. :-/ Hey bill, you putting this stuff in your Savage's oil too? The good news is that there has NOT been any reports of seafoam doing damage to ones motor when using it. (not sure about wet-clutches) so no harm, even if it doesn't do anything good. I thought I'd try it...no harm in trying. I would like to know more about adding it to oil on wet-clutch machines. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/07/10 at 15:09:00 Yep you put in in the oil it cleans the engine and clutch,Put it in your car oil too it will run a lot better,If it a new car it will keep it clean. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/07/10 at 15:14:53 Charon thinks ethanol is the best thing that ever happened to gas,I can get 100 gasoline here it gives you about 5% better mileage and power than ethanol. Charon has never tried Sea Foam so he has no idea what it will do.Charon uses Gasoline with ethanol in it to clean his carb. ::) |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Charon on 07/07/10 at 15:48:08 Once again Bill writes without thinking. I have said, and on this very forum, that ethanol produces less energy than "pure gas." It is on the order of 3% less. That is, roughly, the difference between 60 mpg and 62 mpg. A difference easily swamped by other variables such as speed, wind, temperature, and so on. In short, without very careful measurements you will never notice the difference. The ethanol does raise the octane rating of the fuel, and I have also commented that it reduced knocking on a '79 Lincoln I used to have. I do not necessarily think ethanol is the "best thing that ever happened to gas," but at 10% I certainly do not think it is harmful. I can speak from first-hand experience when I say I have been using it for thirty years with no evidence of damage to any of my equipment. Back when "gasohol" was introduced, people were cautioned that its use might loosen up deposits and dirt in the fuel system, and might result in clogged fuel filters. I think that is a pretty good testimonial to its solvent and cleaning abilities. Bill is correct that I have never used Seafoam. I do not intend to do so, because I think it is useless. IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR A CARBURETOR THAT IS ALREADY CLEAN. There is absolutely nothing in it that can do a better job of dissolving crud than ordinary, clean gasoline can do. And until someone (yes, you, Bill) can cite a controlled test proving Seafoam works I will continue to believe it is useless. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/07/10 at 16:08:56 Charon I want a control test proving corn gasoline is better than 100% gasoline. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by babyhog on 07/07/10 at 16:45:26 Charon, I'd like to thank you for an imformative, unbiased "review". I talked to my hubby about it, and he said he wouldn't use it except for a couple extreme circumstances either. I was more curious, because I see so many threads, people say something is wrong, and someone throws out "run some Seafoam through it" response. I could have read their website for an hour and not gotten the information that you gave me. My husband also knew more about it, although I hadn't previously asked him. Anyway, as with anything like this, there will be some on each side of the debate. And I appreciate hearing both sides. That way, I can make an informed decision of my own. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Charon on 07/07/10 at 16:56:23 Once again, Bill writes without thinking. I, at least, have never claimed ethanol gasoline is better than "100% pure gasoline." I have said it has better solvent abilities, and that it is higher octane. I have also said it contains less energy per gallon. However, the original topic of the thread was Seafoam. I stated my belief that Seafoam is worthless, and explained why. The subject of ethanol fuel was mentioned only in connection with the alcohol in Seafoam, until it was raised in the form of "..uses gasoline with ethanol in it to clean his carb." I stated that until I see a controlled test showing Seafoam works, I will continue to believe it is worthless. I did concede that, while I think Seafoam is worthless, at least it is also harmless. It is also incorrect to have stated that I use ethanol gasoline to clean carburetors. I don't need to clean them, because they are not dirty. Using clean, fresh fuel means the carburetors stay clean in the first place. I use ethanol fuel because I have found it to work well, to cause no problems, and to be a few cents per gallon less expensive. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/07/10 at 16:59:17 If your hubby and charon who neither one have ever used it say its no good its best for you not to use it. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by verslagen1 on 07/07/10 at 17:22:53 7A797875776D140 wrote:
so your hubby will use it in a extreme circumstance... That tells me it works for him when the chips are down. But would rather clean it another way, and if that way won't work... seafoam it. And for others... if it's not in the book don't do it approach to life ::) yes, I would prefer to tear it apart and know it's clean myself. but quite a few here pick up their 1st bike and don't know sh!t from shinola. And their 1st task is to clean a carb that's been sitting for awhile. It's much easier to hand them a can of fixit then to tell them to tear the carb apart. This will send them running to the dealer to either trade in their bike or buy a new carb. it might be a lazy fix but it does work. and I don't hear anyone saying they had to replace a carb cause it ate it up. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by babyhog on 07/08/10 at 09:03:42 616A6F6F3534030 wrote:
Where did I say that my husband has never used it? |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/08/10 at 09:13:48 Its best for you not to use Sea Foam. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by babyhog on 07/08/10 at 09:17:06 777C79792322150 wrote:
Why? You use it, right? I was honestly asking for information on the product. You are one of many who believe in the stuff, right? Am I not allowed to make an informed decision, or am I just supposed to use or not use it because someone tells me to? Don't get defensive. Give me information. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/08/10 at 09:21:59 Don't use Sea Foam Baby you will have to drain the liquid water it causes. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Serowbot on 07/08/10 at 10:53:41 I've tried it several times on bikes that have been sitting a while... But had no success... I always ended up pulling the carbs and manually cleaning them... It may. or may not work, in a maintenance routine... but it's not a cure all... and gas already has cleaning agents in it... Better than Sea foam,... pull the fuel line at the petcock, let the gas dribble out of the line, and fill the line with carb cleaner... then run the bike for a few minutes... That's mainlining... ;D... That just might help a sticky slide or float,... but clogged jets and passages still need R&R cleaning... |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/08/10 at 11:50:12 Your using a carb cleaner is a good idea,Sea Foam is a carb cleaner,Around here if you want gas with cleaner in it you have to use the 92 octane. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by mornhm - FSO on 07/08/10 at 12:08:40 Seafoam works for me under the following circumstances: 1. Engines that I only run a few hours a year (like my tiller). My observation is that the same equipment that in the past I have had to clean the carbs on to get it running in the spring, I have not needed to clean the carbs or anything else in the spring in the years that I put Seafoam in the last tank of fuel before storage. (I always run the tanks empty before storage.) 2. On engines that haven't had the fuel run through them quickly. They will "straighten up" quicker if I put the recommended amount of seafoam in the tank than if I just run the fuel through and then refill. 3. If I get some "bad" fuel, sometimes a dose of Seafoam will straighten it out - not always, I've had some expensive experiences in the past. Charon, One thing that I would caution you on is the assumption that the fuel you get is what the pump says that it is. The additives to fuel are not always distributed evenly in the storage tanks. If you ever get a "slug" of additives instead of gasoline, you can be spending a bunch of money on catalytic converters, and other sensors etc to get your vehicle running again. I know that my observations are limited, but they do have "controls." Basically under as similar circumstances as possible, I've been able to get desired results by adding Seafoam, that did not occur without adding anything. This is based on years of observation/experience. By the way, if you ever want to have a frustrating experience, have your vehicle quit a few miles after filling up while on vacation. Then drain the gas tank to find out that it is full of either crud or almost pure additives and then try to get the station where you bought the stuff cover your repair costs. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/10 at 15:35:47 I finally fired up the chainsaws & ran them a bit, then dumped the fuel & ran them till they ran dry. The Kawa W 650 has an accelerator pump that doesnt take being left sitting in gas so well, maybe the chemical formulation for the diaphragm was decided on prior to the alcohol, but, for whatever reason, it goes down the tubes if left to soak for too long, so Im draining that carb bowl when its parked for more than a few days. The S-40 has yet to cause me grief for allowing it to sit for extended periods, but I know that every time I let it sit till I have tio use prime to get it to strat, I am loading the jets w/ varnish & will eventually be forced to go in & clean it up. I do run some diesel thru, once in a while, but I dont think thats as good as gas, I just do it cuz I wind up adding gas to a can I had used for diesel. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/08/10 at 18:32:32 JOG I think some Sea foam in that kaw carb will get that accelerator pump working right. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Digger on 07/08/10 at 21:10:30 2E2D2C212339400 wrote:
Hi Baby. I said that because I believe it is not good practice to use additives of any type in the motor oil of an engine with a wet clutch. It becomes a science experiment. Also, I was not able to find anywhere on the Sea Foam web site that the product was safe to use with a wet clutch. BTW, I use Sea Foam all of the time as a fuel stabilizer....I think it works better than the red Sta-Bil for this purpose. However, the green (Marine) Sta-Bil may be better than Sea Foam for this application with ethanol. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by james may on 07/08/10 at 21:54:15 ethanol<gasoline<diesel Fact of chemistry you'll get better milage out of diesel than gasoline and better out of gasoline than ethanol because there is less chemical energy in them. Nobody has mentioned seafoaming the intake. You can see fun videos of it online.. you drop half the can into a vaccuum tube and then turn the engine off.. wait 10 minutes and restart.. lots of toxic smoke out your tail pipe.. cool effect.. probably pointless aside from cool effect.. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by babyhog on 07/09/10 at 09:46:14 456866666473010 wrote:
Hi Baby. I said that because I believe it is not good practice to use additives of any type in the motor oil of an engine with a wet clutch. It becomes a science experiment. Also, I was not able to find anywhere on the Sea Foam web site that the product was safe to use with a wet clutch. BTW, I use Sea Foam all of the time as a fuel stabilizer....I think it works better than the red Sta-Bil for this purpose. However, the green (Marine) Sta-Bil may be better than Sea Foam for this application with ethanol.[/quote] Thanks Digger. That's part of why I asked the question (the crankcase/wet-clutch comment). I understand some chemistry, physics, etc, and I think I'm a pretty smart gal, but engines and such are beyond me so far. I'm learning - mostly from you guys, then as topics arise, I let my husband further explain. So its a learning process. But I whole-heartedly appreciate your input. Hey James, I don't think I wanna try any cool effect if it emits toxic smoke! ;D How is your weight loss coming along? |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/09/10 at 11:42:14 Sea Foam causes no problems with wet clutches,Its not a super lube its a super cleaner with a little oil in it.I and a lot of people I know have done it. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by cursal on 07/09/10 at 13:58:44 I am one of those noobs who has gotten their 1st street bike (5000 miles and about 1 year ago) :D And I don't know sh!t from shinola, but I am learning from all the great members on this site. And I will one day feel at ease pulling my carb and cleaning it by hand, just not today. I'm getting experience each time I work with my mechanic and learning more so I will be able to do most maintence myself. I have been watching youtube and reading wikipedia so I am better educated on what a wet-clutch is and how it works. I don't think using seafoam in the oil is a bad thing. So many people use seafoam in wet-clutch machines. Just search around the web for biker forums. Just can't come up with any reason why that would make the clutch slip. I can see it cleaning off the gunk on the plates, but not making it slip. If anything seems it would make shifting smoother with greater ease of grabbing the "raised-gooves" on the plates. Open to hearing reasons why one would say it would cause damage to our wet-clutch. Would love to see some documentation of seafoam wrecking a wet-clutch. (not really, but if there is a claim... proof to back it up please) |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 07/09/10 at 14:14:35 Charon - Tell me if I'm wrong. My car has a computer that gives average mileage, among other parameters. Around here, Shell is the only brand of gas that still has no ethanol. When I buy any other brand, I get just about 10% (3.5 mpg) less mileage than Shell. I measure this difference in open freeway driving, over the same route, same weather, temp., etc. So, if the energy difference is only 3%, why do I get 10% worse mileage with ethanol laden fuel? I though tthat ethanol has far less energy, over gasoline, than just 3%. Am I in error? |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by bill67 on 07/09/10 at 14:24:22 10% is about the difference I get too. |
|
Title: Re: SeaFoam? Post by Charon on 07/09/10 at 15:51:52 Jerry, ethanol itself contains about 30% less energy than gasoline, per unit volume. Gasoline is a mixture of dozens of petroleum products, and its formulation changes from refinery to refinery and from season to season. Thus, the energy content of gasoline is variable over a range of a few percent. I base my 3% on the idea that 10% of the gasoline has been removed (thus removing 10% of the energy) and replaced with a product containing 70% the energy of gasoline (thus replacing 7% of the energy). None of my machinery has an instantaneous mpg computer, so I am left to figure mpg tank-by-tank. I have made an attempt to note whether I buy "100% pure gas" or E-10, and to correlate mpg with the notes. I have been unable to do so. The car I was (and am) using has averaged just over 29 mpg for nearly 90000 miles. At that mileage a 3% difference is about 1 mpg, and it seems to be swamped by different weather, A/C use, traffic, and so forth. Too, when I fill the tank with, say, E-10 there is some remaining regular gas and vice-versa. I do not know of any Shell stations locally. But we do have quite a few stations claiming variations on the theme of no ethanol, so getting gas with or without ethanol is usually easy (if you believe the pump labels). We also have a Williams pipeline terminal and tank farm near Doniphan, NE. On almost any day one can watch fuel trucks pull into the terminal and leave with fuel. Those trucks carry pretty much any brand, both national and local. I cannot know whether they all carry away the same gas from the same tank, although common belief is that they do. It is said the only differences among gas brands is the additive package, and it is said the truck drivers are supposed to put the additive into the truck before it is filled with gas. I have no idea where the ethanol is added. I do know you can smell the difference between gas with and gas without ethanol. I cannot explain the mpg difference displayed by your car's computer. I would try tracking the mileage the old-fashioned way and see if the data correlates. But thank you for your input - it is interesting. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |