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Message started by LARRYD on 06/21/10 at 20:05:48

Title: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/21/10 at 20:05:48

Hi im new to this forum. I just purchased a 2001 savage. The bike is in really nice shape and has low miles. The bike has a rattle in the engine and i cant figure out what it is. It happens on takeoff and in every gear but you can only hear it at idle if you snap the throttle fast. It sounds loud spark knock but it isnt. I checked the valves twice and there in spec .004 . Could this be cam chain , would that sound like a knock. Im hopeing its not internal , any feedback would be great

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/21/10 at 21:56:50

Welcome Larry,...
Low miles, it shouldn't be cam chain...
This bike has a couple of famous noise makers that can throw their voices pretty well...
Press a finger on the speedo bezel,... push several directions...
Tighten the front belt drive pulley...
Hold a finger on the headlight mounting ring...

If it's none of those,... get back to us,...
... but, it very often is...

I just thought my cam chain went,.. and it was the front drive pulley nut...
So... sneaky!.... :-?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/21/10 at 22:02:09

Low miles? How many miles is above "Low"? What is your definition of Low?

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/21/10 at 22:20:47

5000 mi

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/21/10 at 22:31:05

1st thing to check is all the hardware on the bike.
you say you can blip the throttle to hear it, do so.
use the other hand to touch every thing you can till the sound dies.

as said, headlight, speedo are very common.
could be wires inside the headlight too.
pulley cover, belt guard.

it pays to hunt these rattles down, your bike is telling you something is about to fall off when you aren't looking.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/21/10 at 22:36:12

I used a thesescope and can hear it best on bottom case when i blip the throttle. It rattles good when the motor is straining like taking off or when shifting to another gear

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/21/10 at 22:56:28

if you hear it best on the right (oil filter) side then it's the cam chain.
right above the filter cover is where it'll rattle up and down.

cam chain check is in the tech doc's.

thesescope? going for your doctorate? or just listening for a theses?

jk ;D

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/22/10 at 08:11:52

Yes I use it all the time for cars and lawnmowers . I will check the cam chain and also the decompression adjustment. Thanks for all of your help. I love the bike, has plenty of power and handles great. So far has supertrap, jet kit, and air filter mod . Its tunned right and that got rid of all of the backfire and afterfarts. Thanks for all the help, love this site

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by dasch on 06/22/10 at 08:30:18

Stethoscope? Mine rattles too, it stops if I place my right foot on the exhaust. Every bolt is tight, I think the inner pipe broke off of the outer somehow. Can't help it.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 10:48:44

Larry,.. got your PM...

It's doubtful that the drive pulley would rattle at idle,... unless it was really loose... but, it's easy to check by pulling that side cover(3 bolts)...
Always check the easy stuff first... ;D...

I have no experience with the decomp lever making any rattles...

It's just very unusual for a 5k engine to be having serious internal problems...

... Do you still have the chrome head covers on?... could one of them be loose?...
... also,.. are you noticing any weakness in engine power?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/22/10 at 11:24:37

Serobot, I have new bolts in cover not loose. Should I check the valves again ? It seems to be worse when under load. I can. Hold the brake in gear and ease off the clutch and I can hear the rattle very well.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 12:34:14

You've checked those twice,... unless you think you could be wrong twice, I think you're wasting your time...

A loose drive pulley noise will increase under described load...
Double check that,... crank it hard with a 32mm socket... you will need a buddy to hold the bike upright and hold the rear brake on while you crank... it has a fold over washer on the nut, but don't trust it to tell you if it's loose...
If the sound in your steth says low in the case, I'd rule out valves and de-comp altogether...

I keep pushing the drive nut theory,... 'cause that booger has fooled three times this year... :-?... Twice I thought camchain, and once I thought shift dogs... two different noises, but both were from that nut...

...one more thing,... any gas smell in your oil?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/22/10 at 12:47:29

Serowbot , ill check that bolt , I just didn't think it would make noise unless te bike was moving ? Thanks a lot for the info , I'm working on it now ill let you know later what I found.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 12:53:56

You're probably right,...

If it's not that,... it may be time to pull the rightside case and check the camchain...
Very unusual at 5k miles...

Edit... Just remembered,... someone said that the crankshaft is not a single piece unit...
Would cranking on the nut under the timing cover,... check that?...
Versy?... Would it?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/22/10 at 13:23:06

couldn't tell if the crank was 1 pc or not. but I've never heard of issues with the crank either.

You've ruled out the valves and all other hardware, right now I'd be hoping it was the cam chain. easy fix.

next bit that causes knocking is the piston. and you can burn a piston any time. ok you can rule that out by running a compression test.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/22/10 at 18:47:03

well i took the side cover off today and looked at the chain tensioner. How do you tell if it is bad or causing my rattle . It looks tight enough but it is extended quiet a bit about 15mm . Do i replace just the tensioner or the chain too ? the chain seems tight , where does the rattle come from ?

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/22/10 at 18:57:22

15mm is ok, 18mm is a good time to do something and 22mm you have too.

I'd leave it for now.

the rattle come from the housing bouncing up and down hitting the case.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/22/10 at 19:07:59

i guess im looking at other problems then. Is there anything else you can think of or does it sound like internal to you too ? is there anything on the other side that would cause a knock besides the drive pulley nut ( checked that ) ? Im sorry i guess im just hopeing its not in the motor. anyway thanks for all your help !!

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 19:23:27

Other than a couple of people doin' wacky experiments with crank counterbalancers and shooting them out of the crankcase,... (I won't name names)... or putting an oil filter in backwards and blowing the cover plate,...
I haven't heard of any bottom end problems on these engines...

I think I'd just ride it, and see if it makes itself known to you... eventually it either will do that, or go away...
If it is in the tranny or crankcase,... you'll probably be best off, just buying a used engine out of a totaled bike anyway...

My bet is it's something external that you haven't located yet...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 19:27:15

372433322D2026242F70410 wrote:

15mm is ok, 18mm is a good time to do something and 22mm you have too.

I'd leave it for now.

the rattle come from the housing bouncing up and down hitting the case.

Isn't it 12 or 14 mm virtually new?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/22/10 at 19:28:13

my guess is 6 to 9mm

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Serowbot on 06/22/10 at 19:31:37

Ooops,.. I don't really know,.. I just thought I remembered somebody saying that...
Thanks for clearing it up... ;)...

So, 15mm sounds like a lot for just 5k miles?... :-?...

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/22/10 at 20:14:44

we got data points at close to 15mm for 9,000 miles.
Normally we can expect 1000 miles per mm.
In his case 500 miles. But it may not be that. He may have gotten a monday engine and it started out further than normal.

Even though He has accelerated wear, I'm going to say you need to work on it in 3,000 miles. That'll put you between 18 and 20mm.

I suggest you start watching the oil level religiously and go to 20w50, Syn if you can.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1192027390

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/24/10 at 20:44:23

Ok , I removed both side covers and checked everything that could make that rattle knocking sound , cam chain,trigger coil, checked valves again ect. The tentioner is 16mm 0ut I guess the odometer is wrong. Could the tentioner still be making a knock under load ? If not what is probable the valvetrain , rod bearing, or crank bearing ? Or ? Thanks everyone.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/24/10 at 20:57:27

I may have overlooked the procedure you used to check the drive pulley, but the way I hear it, ya gotta flatten the keeper washer & retoque it to know 4 sure .

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by verslagen1 on 06/24/10 at 21:50:55

131815156E63616F570 wrote:

Last thing I know about that could be it... burnt piston.
It made a definite knock. The guy I bought it from said it lost power at speed, then died. listened to it with a stethoscope and sounded like it was in the case. seized up wrist pin, piston melted and seized up the rings. Compression was 106 psi

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/24/10 at 22:33:00

What causes a burnt piston? Too lean & hard running?

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/26/10 at 02:07:24

If its a burnt piston wouldnt it be running bad ? Its only real noticable when engine is accelerating at low rpm in lower gears. the only way i hear it at idle is when i blip the throttle it sounds like 1 single knock, but if i put it in gear, brake it ,give it gas it becomes a steady tapping knocking sound. It has good compression and runs and drives perfect. Think i should pull the top end yet ? Could it be the cam baerings or cam gear ?

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by Oldfeller on 06/26/10 at 02:21:46

The engines all knock if accelerated TOO HARD in too high of a gear. The gas tank moves in time to the knock sound if it is a "normal" acceleration knock.

You shouldn't do this, BTW -- it is bad for your engine.

Has he checked his engine mounts for tightness yet? Top mounts (3 bolts) and bottom mounts (3 bolts, 2 in front & one in back).

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by LARRYD on 06/26/10 at 04:07:03

It does it in first gear until about 3000 rpm. As for the mounts ive checked those too. Its definitely coming from engine just cant tell exactly where. Ive checked everything i can find exept for pulling valve cover and looking at cam and rocker arms ect. Anyway thanks and if you think of anything let me know.

Title: Re: engine rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/26/10 at 08:31:56

After mine got well broken in I could accelerate away from a stop W/O making that knocking sound a lot easier. It sure was unnerving.