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Message started by Yonuh Adisi on 05/12/10 at 11:55:02

Title: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 05/12/10 at 11:55:02

Insurance group trying to get anti-lock brake system to be mandatory on all motorcycles.

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/story.asp?id=1958

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/12/10 at 14:15:51

I am afraid I'll be even more unpopular, but I agree with mandatory ABS for motorcycles. Not only that, but I would require that the brakes be so linked that the rear brake pedal would fully apply both brakes. The front brake can be either linked or independent, but the foot pedal must apply both brakes. Reason: Most people spend far more time behind the wheel than on a bike. In a car or truck, there is only one brake pedal, which applies all the brakes on all the wheels (Yes, I know about the parking brake and/or the trailer brake bar on a semi). In a situation requiring sudden application of brakes, the trained reaction is to stomp the pedal. On a motorcycle, that often causes a spill when the rear wheel locks. Stopping distance using the rear brake only is far longer than using both brakes properly, and in a panic stop it is exceedingly easy for an occasional rider to forget completely about the front brake. Evidence for that scenario goes at least as far back as the Hurt report. We have the technology already. It should be mandatory. And yes, I have read the reports that under some conditions stopping distances using ABS might be longer. But what is the stopping distance for a motorcycle on its side because the operator made a braking mistake?

By the way, we are all aware that very soon electronic stability controls will be mandatory on all new cars. That includes ABS and traction controls. Be ready for an influx of new drivers who can be even more aggressive knowing they won't spin out.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by bill67 on 05/12/10 at 14:28:31

On some bikes the front does work when you hit the rear brake,I think Goldwings and some Moto Guzzis

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/12/10 at 15:07:01

You are correct, Bill. Some Gold Wings were set up so the pedal operated the rear disc and one of the two front discs, with the front brake operating the other front disc. Some Guzzis also had linked brakes. A fairly recent BMW had linked, power assisted, ABS brakes so either control operated both brakes. Some Honda sportbikes had a linked brake system with bias, so set up that the pedal biased the brake toward the rear and the hand control biased the brake toward the front, but both controls always operated both brakes. That Honda system didn't have ABS, though. The combination of linked brakes and ABS is still unusual and expensive.

I think the ABS and linked brake system should be mandatory on all motorcycles, because I think a lot of motorcycle crashes are caused by locking one or both wheels in braking. Even without a panic stop a motorcycle goes down really easily if the front wheel skids on a slippery spot (oil, patch of gravel, or the like) and the rider doesn't let up VERY quickly. A single-track vehicle is inherently unstable, and easily falls down. A mistake in braking in a car may result in a skid and loss of control, but the car doesn't fall down.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by LostArtist on 05/12/10 at 15:21:14

besides increasing the costs of all bikes by $1000 I'm okay with the idea of ABS, not sure about the interlocking brakes, how does locking the back wheel cause crashes? I always thought locking the front wheel would be 1000 times worse?

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/12/10 at 16:49:44

Locking the front wheel causes the bike to drop pretty quickly. Locking the rear usually causes the rear to slide out to one side or the other, often to the right since the road is crowned that way. If you are already in a turn when the rear locks, it will slide to the outside of the turn. Once the bike is out-of-line, there are three possibilities. One, the rider might be able to recover. Two, the slide continues and the bike drops to the pavement. This is a low-side crash. Three, the rear wheel regains traction, either because the rider releases the brake or because it hits something like the curb. When it does the bike will violently flip over the other way, tossing the rider into the air. This is a high-side crash.

Motorcycle brakes can be treacherous. Consider a rider who usually uses the rear brake, and "saves the front brake for emergencies." This rider steps on the rear brake, just to the verge of lockup. He realizes this isn't going to do the job. Now he applies the front brake. The front brake application causes a nose dive, but more importantly it unloads the rear wheel because of weight transfer. This rear wheel unloading instantly causes the rear wheel to lock, and takes the rider by surprise. Remember, he is already trying to stop, and he is unlikely to associate rear wheel lockup with front brake application. Odd as it might seem, cruisers are a little less vulnerable to the problem because of their long wheelbase.

Some of these things are easy to demonstrate to yourself. Having properly dressed for the chance of a fall, go find a dirt road somewhere. Dirt, because the forces required are lower (tires slide much more easily on dirt than pavement). You are deliberately going to play with locking brakes, and sliding on dirt doesn't damage tires as does sliding on pavement. And, should you go down, neither you nor the bike will suffer as much (probably). Accelerate to modest speed, say 20 - 25 mph. Squeeze the clutch, to eliminate engine interactions. For the sake of discussion, we will start with the front brake. Start squeezing it. Get a "feel" for how much braking you can do, preferably using only one or two fingers on the lever. You will have to accelerate between the experiments. Eventually, you will exceed traction limits and the front wheel will lock. When it does, it will immediately turn one way or the other because of the bike's geometry. RELEASE THE BRAKE IMMEDIATELY, or you will go down. You are learning what a front end lockup feels like, and you won't like it much. Now to the rear. Repeat the experiments, gradually increasing brake pressure until the wheel locks. Because you are going straight, the rear wheel lockup won't seem very dramatic, and you will probably be able to keep the bike fairly straight. If by chance it does get very far out of line, keep it locked until you stop. Again, get a feel for how much braking you can apply. Now, the fun experiment. Get going and apply about as much rear brake as you can without locking the wheel. Then apply the front brake and observe that the rear locks up.

Sorry for the length of the post, but this is something that I do not believe is covered in most motorcycle training courses. By the way, it wouldn't hurt to take a friend along, just in case something goes wrong.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Midnightrider on 05/12/10 at 16:50:27

On the downside have you got $1000 to buy a new ABS module when yours goes out and it will go out. Just happened to a friend of mines BMW. Most motorcycles stop quicker than cars plus we have more manueverability and can look for smaller exit paths. The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are cars hitting us and pulling out in front of us. Your chances of surviving a car pulling out in front of you are better if you look for an escape route rather than slamming on the brakes. I'm not against safety equipment, I dress appropriately and wear a full face helmet. But a vast majority of the time using your head and appropriate reactions are better than all the safety equipment money can by. I'll take an MSF course over antilock brakes any day. I'm 55 years old and I've ridden over 200,000 mi on the street.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by bill67 on 05/12/10 at 16:59:02

From the time I started riding I have always used both brakes together,Always the back brake a mil a second before front brake,In parking lots at very slow speeds I use just the front. I have never locked either brake.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Ed L. on 05/12/10 at 17:10:25

ABS would of helped when I got into some gravel with the front tire coming up to a stop sign. Did more damage to myself than the bike and bruised my ego even more. I guess it is part of the "protecting the masses from themselves". Maybe I'm getting old but I'm really getting tired of people protecting me from myself. I like to think I'm intelligent enough to be aware of the ramifications of my actions and accept the risks involved. Has anyone bought a pocket knife lately? there is a disclaimer stating that a knife is "Sharp and can cause injury" handout in it's box. Well Duhh.
I could see a problem with riders moving from ABS bikes to non ABS bikes just cause they never learned to use braking properly when they first started riding. ABS on a bike I own? gotta think twice about that one.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/12/10 at 19:50:47

Ed, I have to agree with you in your comments about people (read Government) wanting to protect me from myself. The business of protecting me from myself led to seat belt laws and helmet laws. There is, however, a bit of overlap in being protected from myself and being protected from others. If some technology can be added to motor vehicles which reduces the liklihood of crashes, it protects not only the vehicle operator but also passengers and other road users. I am not completely convinced that seat belts or helmets protect anyone but their immediate users, and so I think their use should probably devolve onto the user. (I won't raise the question of whether one should be required to seat belt ones children.) But a technology such as ABS, regardless of the vehicle type, shows good potential for reducing the number of crashes which might affect others. A motorcyclist who runs into a car will almost certainly hurt or kill himself. There is a definite chance the auto driver can be injured, and it is virtually certain the car will sustain damage. If technology such as ABS and linked brakes can avert the crash, more than one person has been helped. There are a lot of motorcyclists who have had no formal training. I think those are the ones who would be helped most.

As a matter of interest, I note that the new Can-Am Spyder, Bombardier's trike, is factory equipped with electronic stability control and ABS, and has only a foot-operated brake working on all three wheels.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Buckaroo on 05/13/10 at 06:48:30

There are a lot of motorcyclists who have had no formal training. I think those are the ones who would be helped most.

Maybe the solution is for those with no formal training is to get some. To advocate a rider go out to a dirt road and crash their bike is insane! Bring a friend? Call the EMT's! 8-)

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/13/10 at 08:11:46

Buckaroo, you are correct in thinking that those motorcyclists without formal training should go get that training. But not many seem likely to do it. I tried once to get some other riders at my place of employment to sign up for an advanced rider course. The most common reaction: "I don't need no training. I know how to ride a f**ing motorcycle." There were not enough people signed up, and the course was cancelled.

I have taken the MSF, and also attended Kieth Code's Superbike school. Neither of those courses mentioned the effect I described earlier, that of having the rear brake lock up when the front brake is applied. I do not know of any other way to experience the effect of wheel lockup under braking than to go try it. I do not know of any safer way than on dirt at low speeds, wearing suitable gear. Had I known a better way, I'd have described it. If you know a better way, pray tell us. Best, of course, would be to get hold a a bike with outriggers, wich cannot fall over. Few of us have access to such a rig.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by bill67 on 05/13/10 at 08:14:16

I've had no formal training,After 40 years of riding I should just quit riding,I really should quit driving a car to I had no ::) (formal) ::) drivers ed.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by mornhm on 05/13/10 at 08:59:12

My problem with abs is that I usually only ride, not drive (don't even have a cage I call my own anymore), so for me to learn how to use abs on a MC would be a relearning process.

Also - For regular stops, I use almost all front brake. For emergency stops (which I intentionally practice, and way too often get to use - mostly due to cell phone users) I use both brakes to the max. For parking lots I use only the rear brake. My motorcycle weighs 900+ lbs loaded and being a sport tourer tends to "dive" if you apply the front brake at low speeds especially while turning - can you say high side with a 600+ MC chasing you - I'd rather not.

Is an ABS system going to be smart enough to do all that? I can appreciate the thought, however not all braking is emergency braking, but if you do regular braking wrong, you can turn parking into an emergency. >:(

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 05/13/10 at 09:06:35

Since I started this thread, I reckon I better chime in huh?

I am actually on the fence with this issue. On one hand ABS would work well with the bigger bikes like the Gold Wings and such, because of their to me excessive weight, but I do not believe ABS would be beneficial for the lighter bikes like the Savage/S40.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by dasch on 05/13/10 at 09:10:59

I tried a a 1200GS BMW with ABS and interlock. It stops like a charm. Mornhm - there's no need to "learn" braking with ABS since it will only engage if you are way out of line with speed and late reaction. I rode this thing around the town, and enjoyed it. ABS never triggered once. Just like in a car, if you hear the ABS roar - your judgement of speed/distance was wrong from the start. You have way to much experience to ever hear it engage. I'm for it.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by LostArtist on 05/13/10 at 11:34:44

I was taught in the MSF course you don't emergency brake while in a turn, you straighten up then stop, course this seemed odd to me cause not all roads are straight. and when it's an emergency, it can happen in the middle of a turn. and running out of road seemed an issue too.

abs prices need to come down before this becomes mandated. but I guess it wouldn't stop you from buying used bikes without abs

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by mornhm on 05/13/10 at 12:43:12

595C4E5E553D0 wrote:

Mornhm - there's no need to "learn" braking with ABS since it will only engage if you are way out of line with speed and late reaction. I rode this thing around the town, and enjoyed it. ABS never triggered once. Just like in a car, if you hear the ABS roar - your judgement of speed/distance was wrong from the start. You have way to much experience to ever hear it engage. I'm for it.

I thought that ABS systems on the BMW (and others) were linked thus making it difficult to use only the back brake or only the front brake. I think that someday these types of systems will be smart enough to be good in all situations, not just emergency braking. I am concerned that as people have gotten used to using their abs, they have stopped thinking ahead to "I need to slow down before I get to the oil slick ahead" or "I need to wait until after this wet spot to apply my brakes if possible" and just come up to intersections and apply their brakes without any thought to the road surface, after all, the abs will take care of that. Just ask any younger driver why they waited until they were on slick pavement until applying their brakes instead of starting early, or ask if they are taught to think about the pavement surface when braking when being taught to drive.

To be honest, I have never used the abs system in a car while driving, and have only had them actuate when I intentionally caused them to actuate, and maybe I'd feel different if I had, but I'm not sure I'm ready for the idea in a MC. There are lots of riders out there with much more experience than I have, and I while I think realistically anyone who is honest would probably admit that in an emergency situation, the abs is the way to go. I'm just not sure that they wouldn't create an emergency depending on how they were programmed.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by LostArtist on 05/13/10 at 12:52:19

I don't like anything to be mandated, rewards for good behavior are cool though 8-)

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by dasch on 05/13/10 at 13:28:27

The guy who owns it tried to explain, but I can't remember exactly. There's a different brake force distribution ratio between front and rear, depending on whether you used the lever or foot pedal. Anyhow, whichever brake you touch, darn thing just stops!

Dunno, mornhm my friend... me and a friend took this beamer for a test ride, the friend tried to get the ABS to engage a few times by hard braking - nothing. It would simply and just stop. Good build, Good tires, good weight distibution, integral braking... whatever it is... I see your point though, someone tells this youngster he just bought a bike with fool-proof braking system - and the fool starts seeking for a proof. For most of us here - it's a nice backup in emergencies, like you said.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by mick on 05/13/10 at 13:54:24

being experienced riders like most of us here ,we should never have an emergency stop, you should be riding safely and antisipate these things from happening.
That is why police and highway patrol never call accidents accidents,they call them what they are, "Crashes".
But as we all know idiots are out there all the time,some times we can spot them by there actions ,and back off to let them crash without us. 95% percent of crashes are caused by one thing,following to close. speed being another bigee.
I can only drive a car now ,but you can bet your sweet A$$es ,I am your best friend out there, I always give M/Cs if I am lucky enough to pass one plenty of room. and I take extra care at intersections, you will never be hit by a red Miata with a limey in it.
As for abs brakes ,never got the chance to try them,but from what I have read they work very well ,I have not heard a bad report,but then I only read about BMW ,a bike I still call the Rolls Royce of M/Cs.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by mornhm on 05/14/10 at 05:50:10

Dasch,

I may have to go out and try a beemer again. The last time I rode one was back in 2005 when I was shopping for a new MC. I thought their ST was nicer than the Concours I eventually got, but not three times nicer (cost differential). I'm not looking right now seriously, but if things have changed significantly, it might be worth a new look.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/14/10 at 06:12:09

Dasch, I don't know just how BMW does it, but back when Honda had the linked braking system on their sportbike they did it by activating different sets of pistons in the calipers. The rear had two piston sets, one of which was activated by brake torque reaction from the front brake. The front brake had three sets, probably on each of two discs. Rear brake application directly activated one set of pistons on the front and one on the rear. The front brake reaction activated the second set of rear pistons, so there was one piston set front and two rear working. Front brake application directly activated two sets of pistons (of the three) on the front, and the brake reaction activated one in the rear. There were, of course, proportioning valves. The net result was that activation of either control braked both wheels, but the braking was "stronger" on one wheel than the other. Either control could lock its wheel, but I don't know whether either control could lock both wheels. Magazine reports of the time said it worked very well indeed, but there was the usual carping about not being able to use only one brake. But then I used to hear gripes from truckers about front wheel brakes, too, along with the stories about how they would misadjust the brakes so the steer wheels didn't brake. And there were trucks made with a control for slippery roads which reduced front wheel braking.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Southpaw on 05/14/10 at 07:42:48

I can't see that the idea itself would hurt, but trust me, if the bill was written with the help of the insurance companies there are loopholes or clauses to use as precedents that favor the insurance companies. They're not looking out for us, they're trying to figure out how not to pay out! They've been trying to convince state governments the same thing about "Comparative Fault" legislation for years. "It's for our own good!" ::)

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by dasch on 05/14/10 at 08:25:44

Charon, I really don't know either how BMW did it, that might be the same principle, or they simply let the hydraulic pump and ABS computer handle force distribution. Whatever it is, boy... it works. It looked something like this:
http://motorbike-search-engine.co.uk/2006_Bikes/r1150r.jpg
A naked bike, weird to the bone, with all the crazy monolevers, paralevers or whatever they call them. Amazing.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/14/10 at 09:11:49

734F555448504157200 wrote:

+1
and if interlocked, abs braking will prevent stunting on the street, I'm all for it.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Charon on 05/14/10 at 09:38:53

Dasch, a while back Fred Rau, in a back-page article for Motorcycle Consumer News, wrote of having mixed feelings about the BMW with the integrated ABS brakes. He said it dropped him once, and saved his bacon once. He said he was driving the bike onto a ferry, which had the obligatory slippery steel deck. At very low speed, he touched the brake (I don't remember which brake); the brakes locked (possibly because of the power booster on the brakes), and the bike went down. In the other case he was running on a freeway in LA somewhere. He looked aside to admire a BMW sports car, and when he looked back the car ahead of him had dramatically slowed. He got on the brakes, said he heard one "chirp" as the ABS took over, then stopped straight, true, and quickly. He credited the ABS for avoiding a crash.

Other articles on ABS say implementing it on a bike is difficult. On cars, it is said the ABS is allowed to quit working as speed drops to about five mph. That is because it becomes more difficult to sense differences in wheel speed at low speeds; cars don't fall down; and those low speeds don't usually cause much damage. Motorcycle systems have to sense speed right down to a stop, because motorcycles DO fall down. My guess is the ABS works well enough from speeds much faster than a walk down through stop, because it already has data to work with. But at very low speeds, such as paddling around a parking lot, the initial lockup which would cause the ABS to start working is itself enough to drop the bike.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by bill67 on 05/14/10 at 09:51:32

I don't think bikes need anti-lock brakes I think there would be more accidents with them,And the price would be way to much.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 05/14/10 at 10:23:44

I have a chinese scooter that I'm doing some work on for a customer.It has an ABS front disk brake. Not sure if it works, it's just installed where the hose attaches to the caliper. 8-)

Can't cost much, these scooters are cheeeaaap! :o

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Midnightrider on 05/14/10 at 10:27:38

My buddy as an 04 Beemer with power assisted anti lock brakes. The brakes have caused him to drop it numerous times in the parking lots and his driveway. I dont want to be dropping a $16000 bike. I can live without em. The modules are notorious for going out around 30,000 miles and they cost well over $1000.

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by dasch on 05/14/10 at 10:27:57

Dunno. Rode it, as I said, low speeds, parking lots, rush hour, relatively high speeds... didn't feel anything strange. Wanna stop - it stops. There's no booster or any enhancement that I felt. Squeeze ligthly - it slows down lightly. Squeeze harder - it simply stops. It acts like any other good bike I rode, difference being in that you actually feel both wheels brake whatever you engage. Kinda hard to explain...
Bill, I agree on the cost 100%. It is probably very expensive now. But give it a few years. Look at cars. Even smallest Kias and Hyundais have it now, and they are still cheap cars.
But why do you think there will be more accidents?? :o 99% of people should not ever sense ABS activating. Rookies may, and it will probably save their butt then - it's a win-win, right?

On the same token - we just got a brand new Ford explorer (exploder) on the job. One of the pamflets that came with it reads - if you need to slow down rapidly, depress the brake pedal as hard as possible and concentrate on steering. It actually instructs you to rely solely on ABS. That might be a partial problem. Taking control out of your hands (feet).

Title: Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Post by Ed L. on 05/15/10 at 11:08:02

I've a Chevy Tahoe with ABS and have needed to use them now and then. The last time I needed them was when a little wiener dog ran out in front of my truck in traffic. I missed the dog by slamming on the brakes and going to the grass sholder of the road. Without the ABS I'm pretty sure I would of hit the dog, it was real close even with them. After thinking about it ABS could really help with a bike but it could disassocate the rider from proper braking technique. It is one of those things where you don't know that you need them till you do.