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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
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Message started by M38A1 on 04/26/10 at 12:21:48

Title: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 04/26/10 at 12:21:48

Hello again...

My friends 2003 Suzuki Savage currently has 6,600 +/- on it. Yesterday it was running fine (short of Issue #1 posted earlier) on her way to an advanced MSF class. While there, they were doing clutch slowing drills. She said she went to lunch but couldn't get more than 42 miles per hour as the engine was rev'ing way faster than the corresponding speed increase. A couple people there looked at it and determined it was the clutch. The bike was trailered home from that point.

Now I'm sitting here thinking 6,600 miles on a wet clutch? Something doesn't seem right with that unless it's been horribly abused in the 1,185 miles she did not own it before her.

So I'm thinking one of a couple things to include the use of any "energy conservation" oils that have a tendency to not work well on wet clutches, or the cable now being 7 years old could possibly have stretched past the lever adjustment capability or down at the clutch housing. I'm still not thinking (or ready to believe) clutch discs.

Before I go in and tear it apart for new clutch discs, do most of you think it's probably the cable?

Again, looking forward to some replies!

.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by BurnPgh on 04/26/10 at 12:40:02

check and lube the cable. If it isnt snapped or damaged in any way adjust it according to the manual. If it still isnt better change the oil out.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Serowbot on 04/26/10 at 13:07:27

I'd definitely try for the easy fix first.... lube and adjust the cable... then see how it goes....

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 04/26/10 at 14:12:46

While you're in there...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 04/26/10 at 14:16:20

Info on clutch...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838/11#11

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by dasch on 04/27/10 at 08:51:09

And what "energy conserving" oil are we talking about?? Motorcycle oils are made to allow friction between clutch plates. I don't want to get into the oil war, but there should be no energy saving oil in that bike. None.
If the cable stretched - clutch would not slip. Quite the opposite. She couldn't shift smoothly.
My bet is - wrong oil or worn clutch pack.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by bill67 on 04/27/10 at 09:13:00

Put some Sea Foam in the oil and it will clean off the clutch plates.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by dasch on 04/27/10 at 09:35:18

353E3B3B6160570 wrote:

Put some Sea Foam in the oil and it will clean off the clutch plates.

Bill is on the roll today!! ;D

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Charon on 04/27/10 at 09:59:40

I wonder if Bill owns stock in the companies that make Sea Foam and Klotz oil?

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/27/10 at 11:24:55

Certainly, start w/ a clutch adjustment. Knowing what oil is in it would be a grand thing. When was the oil changed last? If you just changed the oil & suddenly ya have a clutch prob, ,, well.. might have poisoned your own well.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/08/10 at 11:26:25

The fix is becoming murky now....

Clutch cable adjustment checks out OK.

I warmed up the bike today then tried to get an open end on the drain pan bolt. Whoever put that one previously must have had popeye arms as I had that sinking feeling I was going to round off the bolt head. No worry, quick trip to Imperial Tool Palace (Harbor Freight) and a 14mm box wrench was secured. A quick tap of the hammer with the new wrench and off it came. The oil drained and the first thing we both thought was "BBQ". Man that stuff smelled just like a bbq shack grease drippings coming out. Black/gray in color, nasty looking and smelling.

Got the oil filter cover off next and pulled out the filter. Rut-row.... lots of sludge in the base of the housing and lots of little brass/copper looking flakes in that sludgie mess. I wiped out the housing, put the new filter in, cleaned the o-ring and buttoned the filter housing back up.

Reinstalled the drain plug and 2.5 qts motorcycle specific oil and fired it up to warm once again. No leaks and proper oil level at this point. I geared up and rode 17 miles of stop and go with the slipping evident the whole time. I could only get up to 42 mph before the force required to maintain that speed just couldn't be overcome by the slippage.

First gear, second, third, fourth didn't matter. Slipping clutch through them all.

I've also learned she thinks everything was fine on the 45 mile ride down to her class, then they were doing clutch drills (quick stops, rolling stops) and all was fine. But when she went to go to lunch, the group took off and she tried to keep up when she just had no acceleration due to slippage.

So...... any thoughts/suggestions on what to do next? Another oil change? Bite the bullet on a clutch/spring pack?

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/10 at 11:42:43

1st, w/the burnt oil, I'd go a oil change before deciding what to do next. that check done, I'd order the extra clutch rods along w/ a couple of gaskets. A quick change and around the block will confirm what needs to be done.
Next I'd order a new pack and get one on order

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by bill67 on 05/08/10 at 11:48:53

Sea Foam in the oil.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/08/10 at 11:53:04

7E7570702A2B1C0 wrote:

Sea Foam in the oil.

OK, total serious question. Is the Sea Foam comment a running joke? I've not heard of that product and my own bike clutch system is dry. Just trying to understand wet clutches and troubleshoot-fix my friends bike so she can get back on the road.....

.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by dasch on 05/08/10 at 12:35:36

What do you mean you haven't heard of it?? We all did. From Bill. ;)

Here's a few links. It's a product that cleans gas passages in carbs, cleans engine internals, whatnot. Lots of people use it, and it seems it does help with some problems. Decide on your own.

http://www.google.com/search?q=seafoam&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/10 at 14:29:04

48363D4434050 wrote:

[quote author=7E7570702A2B1C0 link=1272309709/0#12 date=1273344533] Sea Foam in the oil.

OK, total serious question. Is the Sea Foam comment a running joke?
[/quote]

Yes, bill probably has it on toast in the morning.

And no, it does work. But for engine work I'd rather use rotella dino diesel oil.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by bill67 on 05/08/10 at 16:21:12

I didn't know your S40 was a diesel vers.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/10 at 16:25:03

5E5550500A0B3C0 wrote:

I didn't know your S40 was a diesel vers.

Not a S40 it's a D650 :P

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/08/10 at 16:34:39

We went to the local 'Zuk dealer today to check on pricing and availability for parts in the next phase of this problem. This is what we found:

2003 Suzuki Savage
Clutch, fibers set $60 EBC or $90 factory
Clutch, steels, set $50 factory
Spring pack, set $10
Clutch cover gasket $25
Clutch Pushrod $7

Oil Filter $7
O-Ring, Large $2
O-Ring, Small $2
Drain plug crush washer $2
Motorcycle specific oil, $7/qt

I think this ought to cover everything. Do the prices sound in-line? Are there preferred vendors everyone uses for these items I should go with?

Open to all suggestions still on what to do next. I think the obvious approach is to crack the right case open and see what the clutch pack looks like, evaluate and go from there.

Can someone point me to a thread for installation of the longer clutch pushrod? As cheap as that is, we might give it a try if it can be done without cracking the case. But a link would really help to understand it.

On a related note, Sharon emailed me and she's totally bummed about this. She bought the bike with 1100 miles on it and has brought it up to 6600 and now this. With your help, we'll get her back on the road.
.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/10 at 16:55:46

yes, more or less considering shipping.

gasket $17 a month or 2 ago
you don't have to replace the o-rings every time
the large one if it leaks, i've done it once over the past 3 years and it was the one that came with the bike.
drain plug washer, never.
rotella syn t6 is m/c rated. $19 a gal. at wally world.

tell her that this is to be expected while you are learning the finer arts of riding and maitenance of. Be glad it's simple and inexpensive to work on. and that help can be gotten for a hug and a squeeze.

if she expects perfection then buy a Beemer and marry a german mechanic.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/08/10 at 17:00:22

I ride an R1150GS and am dreading the day when a clutch is due. I'm at 76,000 +/- on the stocker now. Being a dry clutch, I literally have to crack the bike in half just to get to it. And it's not a couple hundred buck project either. Ouch.

Can the longer pushrod be installed externally? Or am I just delaying the inevitable of what is pointing towards a clutch pack?

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/08/10 at 17:40:17

I've gone 46k on one bike and 30k on another.
1st one I put in ebc hd clutch springs when it started to slip in 5th.
Didn't know about the rod until recently.
Now I'm starting to see the same issue on the 2nd bike at about the same mileage. Soon I'll get into it and find out for sure.
But what I'm thinking is... is it needs the shorter rod.
clutch packs wear so that stack up gets shorter. so you have to back off the adjustment till the cam that pushes in the rod hits the inside of the case. then you can't adjust it anymore. so it starts slipping.

that's my take on it.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Oldfeller on 05/09/10 at 03:10:25

Longer rod, not shorter. As pack gets shorter, distance from case face increases, requires longer rod.

I really didn't know for sure until I tried both ways during my last rebuild, and 1mm longer is the way you have to go.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Oldfeller on 05/09/10 at 03:18:38

M38A1,

If you let that dealership put in all those parts you are letting them fleece you good.

You need to resolve to work on your own bike and save a lot of money.

You need to learn how to use search on Tech Section, or just carefully read all the headings and look at the posted materials -- there are pictorial break downs on how to do everything you have mentioned.

=============================

IF you decide to let the stealership fleece you -- tell them you want all the old parts they take out.

For example, I want your old clutch plates if you have no use for them.

Why?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1273183239

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/09/10 at 07:15:29

Oldfeller-
We only went to the dealer to check on pricing and availability of the parts for this. We've had no intentions of having them do the work. I do all my own work on the beemer, so this shouldn't be much different.

I'll explore the search function on these items. I mod on a forum that uses a different software package so I'm a little clumsy on this one right now.

I really do appreciate all the information so far. I just need to have Sharon decide where she want's to spend her $$ next, then tackle this thing to get her back on the road.

Again, thanks and keep it coming!

.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/10 at 04:59:13

Oil Filter $7
O-Ring, Large $2
O-Ring, Small $2
Drain plug crush washer $2
Motorcycle specific oil, $7/qt

I pay around 3 for a filter
$2.00 for an O ring? Naaaah..
A drain plug washer? 2 bucks? Thats nuts

Rotella T 15-40 costs about 10 bucks a gallon. Works great.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Routy on 05/11/10 at 20:25:51

OP said the different gears didn't make any difference in the slippage. Well, it should have ! The faster the engine/clutch assembly is spinning, the less torque it has against it, and the less it would slip.

Is there more here than meets the......story ?

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/11/10 at 20:46:38

What gear do you push start in? (higher or lower)

The answer lies in the fact that it takes more hp to go faster.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Routy on 05/12/10 at 06:31:59

The answer lies in the fact that it takes more hp to go faster.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
No question about that.

But anytime you lower a gear ratio, whether in the final drive or in the tranny, the engine spins faster, and therefore less torque on the crank shaft/clutch assembly, which in turn the clutch will be much less likely to slip. Its always been that way where I came from ;)

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by bill67 on 05/12/10 at 08:08:29

49465C475B5D4E4C444A5D2F0 wrote:

Surprisingly it works the same way in Wisconsin.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/12/10 at 08:46:26

7B746E75696F7C7E76786F1D0 wrote:

So I'm confused
I thought we were talking about shifting up through the gears and increasing speed. So the rpms would be through the same range and finding a spot where it would slip at progressive speeds.
Seems you are talking about a constant speed and slipping the clutch then hunting for another gear that won't slip.
Seems to me that if you have a clutch that slips in several gears, you have a serious problem that you've ignored for far too long.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by M38A1 on 05/26/10 at 12:24:06

>>> UPDATE <<<

We received the Barnett clutch pack (Fibers/Steels) and new springs last week. An evening to disassemble and clean up, and on Sunday the reinstall and button it back up.

She was able to ride it home and her first comment was "Wow - there's so much power now". :-)

Thanks for everyone's help on this one! Now off to search/read on the petcock fix as it just dies while at speed for no reason.

.

Title: Re: Issue #2 - Clutch or cable?
Post by Oldfeller on 05/26/10 at 12:28:15

Barnett makes a good high performance clutch pack.

;D

So does Yoda .... his just costs a lot less.