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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Grinding sound and fuel issue. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1265255937 Message started by Framtid001 on 02/03/10 at 19:58:57 |
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Title: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/03/10 at 19:58:57 I'll start out by admitting I'm a fairly new rider, only about 2 years. So towards the end of last years riding season I was going to take a little trip out riding, so I stopped to fill up. Previously I had realized some issues where it was a little difficult to shift into neutral. First admitted mistake - I filled up with 87 instead of premium. I could immediately tell there was some issue with the gas where i hadn't really had much of an issue with 87. It was a little bit hard to start so I pulled out the choke a little bit and after a while got it running - or so I thought. I go down down the road a little bit and start experiencing some backfires. I pull over, have issues getting it running. It seems like I can get it started with no issue, but when I try sitting down on it it dies. Or if I don't give it enough gas it dies. My friend recommends me to try using some fuel cleaner that they sold in the gas station I stopped at so I figured why the hell not, I'll give it a try. Didn't really help the issue too much. There were a couple of times I tried starting it hoping it would take effect and at some point whenever I tried to start I would get this nasty grinding sound from the bike. I figured that this might have been the issue where I was having trouble shifting around the lower gears and neutral, and it had just gotten more severe since I was starting it a lot trying to fix the issue with the gas. I towed it back to my house. SO. Here's where I'm at. It still has that grinding sound when I try and start, and it starts sometimes and it doesn't. I figure I'll just drain the tank, put in some fresh premium, maybe replace the air filter (seems like it needs it anyways) and maybe use some seafoam and try and run the bike a while and hope that stuff runs its course. What do you guys think about the grinding? Just tow it into a suzuki dealership, or do you think it might be a repair I can handle? Anyone had similar issues. By the way, I feel like a jerk for just registering and my first post is this long winded technical issue. Sorry. My name is Wes! -Thanks |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Serowbot on 02/03/10 at 21:12:07 Hi Wes,... 1. Your bike doesn't need premium gas,... that's not the problem... 2. Not clear about the grinding noise... is it constant?... only while starting?... changing with speed?... 3. stumbling and backfiring, sounds like something clogged in the carb, or a leaking petcock... Here's a link to test that... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429 If the grinding is only when trying to start,... it may just be a low battery charge, caused by the troubles you have been having.. if the grinding is constant even after the bike has started,... I'd check for a stuck starter solenoid or decompression lever... first... Let us know what you find... and feel free to ask anything... remember,.. we don't know where you're at,... so some things may be over or under your abilities.... Take it to the dealer if you are absolutely rollin' in cash... they will love you, and will fix it... eventually.... :-? |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/03/10 at 21:20:49 first most of us use regular, some don't but very few. check your air filter use sea foam remember you don't have a 20 gal tank, only use about an ounce of cleaner at a time. and it'll take a tank to clean it out. seafoam is good. check your petcock and vac line, one little crack is all it takes, better yet replace it once a year. shifter, if you're having trouble shifting down it needs adjusting. but the trick to shifting easy is to put your foot on it, not stomp on it, operate the clutch and it should fall into gear. same thing with up shifting. grinding don't sound good, (it's ok giggle) you know you haven't told us a darn thing about your bike, what's the mileage, what year? stick out your tongue and say awh. nope can't see what color you eyes are either. BTW, for a newbe you done all right, posted your question in the right place. ;D |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/03/10 at 21:32:49 I want to thank you guys for the REALLY fast replies! very helpful too. It's a 1987 savage with 17k miles. But I'm going to try and switch out the fuel and use some seafoam, and throw a battery tender on it friday! Then I'll check through that link to check the carb and petcock. I'll post back with what I find. To be honest I had just got sort of pissed off about and haven't messed with it since I had the issue since it was getting cold, so I'll be able to describe it better when I work on it some more. -Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/03/10 at 22:03:05 182C3F332A373A6E6E6F5E0 wrote:
Danger will robinson danger. Are you sure the grinding is coming from the left side?!?! Well known amongst us long timers is the cam chain maintenance issue on the clutch side. There's a tensioner that if you let go to long will fall out and start grinding. See the cam chain adjuster check in the tech sect. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/03/10 at 23:03:18 I'm sure at some point I'm going to sound like a real idiot here, but please excuse me, I'm young, ha. So, as far as I understand it, the petcock allows you to switch from on, reserve, and prime, which according to a website I found "bypasses the diaphragm so you can fill the carbs with gas after they have been drained." So if my bike runs better on prime, there is an issue with the petcock? I'd like to understand this a little better. I don't know as much as I'd like. So the carb controls the mixture of fuel and oxygen, meaning whether the bike runs lean or floods, correct? and I know (from removing the tank) that there one line that connects from the top of the petcock to the gastank, and one that connects from the petcock to the carb. So, obviously gas flows down from the gastank into the petcock valve. What does the connection from the petcock to the carb do? Why is it important to plug up the passages while they are disconnected (in the "test your petcock" article) ? Would anyone mind explaining how the petcock and carb work just a little better? I'm thinking there is a probability that the issue could be the valve. Backup - I had taken the tank off, and actually removed the back wheel in order to paint the gas tank and rear fender around this time. Just flat black, go figure. Anyways, I HAD noticed a couple of days before this problem that I had some smoke coming off the engine, but I had sort of dismissed it that maybe I had dropped some oil or gas on it accidentally and it was just burning off. And to your response about Cam Chain maintenance. I'm not really that advanced and had some trouble understanding exactly where to start even, and I don't have a whole lot of tools. Is this something you think I could try myself? Is it worth trying if I'm going to have to purchase a lot of tools, if I'm not even sure this is going to be the problem? Thanks a lot verslagen and serobot! ;D |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/04/10 at 00:40:26 the petcock has a vacuum operated valve in it. a line run from the back of the petcock to the carb when the engine is on, the valve is open if you run the carb dry, say if you run out of gas, turn it to prime to fill the carb up prior to trying to start the engine. then back to on when full. yours is an 87, plenty old, take the vac line off of the carb if any gas drains out, the petcock is bad, plug up the vac line and use prime to run. if you can take off the rear fender you can do the cam chain check. Now you're telling me that you painted the tank and fender, really this can be the cause of your problems. not getting those lines back to where they belong can cause issues. vac line from the back of the petcock goes to the right side of the carb. fuel line on the bottom of the petcock goes to the left side. if you got a california model, there's a tank vent line that goes to a carbon canister. and a purge line from the canister to the right side of the carb (small line) |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by ls650v on 02/04/10 at 03:14:48 Don't the 80s vintage savages have a problem with eating starter gears? No torque limiter on the starter. This could cause a grinding sound on startup, but sure wouldn't cause the engine to run poorly once you got it started. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/04/10 at 07:51:35 495613101553250 wrote:
True, pre 90's have a problem with the starter. If the engine kicks back on shutoff it can breakout the mounting for the starter. And some said it can chew up a gear. Someone came up with a circuit to combat the problem. But you need to check your starter gears. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/04/10 at 15:53:22 Miles dictate a cam chain check. You can look at the starter gears if you think thats it, after you look at the cam chain. I wouldnt start it again till I laid eyes on that chain. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 10:45:37 Update - today is my day off (thank friggin' god!) and I'm finally getting some work done. All of the connections from the petcock were right, as I thought they were. I actually used some pliers to pull the tubing extra tight against the petcock. I'm draining the tank as we speak and connecting a battery tender. Simple things first! -Thanks for reading, Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by BurnPgh on 02/05/10 at 11:36:04 id forgo the battery tender and open that ride side up asap. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by bill67 on 02/05/10 at 11:49:03 Forget the battery tender and put a real battery charger on it. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 12:03:20 BurnPGH - get to that shortly. And I don't have a "real battery charger". The tender will work for now, I'd rather spend the extra $ on other tools. -Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Charon on 02/05/10 at 13:11:38 Give over, Bill - a Battery Tender IS a real charger. It happens to be a low rate charger and an automatic one, both of which you decry, but it IS a real charger and it WILL do the job. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by bill67 on 02/05/10 at 13:53:51 123930233E3F510 wrote:
Then why are all the people here with tenders having so much trouble with their batteries,battery chargers are automatic too. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 17:00:09 I charged the battery, it's fine. I didn't mean to start an arguement or anything guys. Okay, so it's trying to turn over now that it's charged, it seems to me it doesn't even matter that I put a fresh gallon and some seafoam in it, it still has the sound. It's definitely pretty LOUD and it seems like it MAY be coming more from the right engine but it's hard to tell. The best way to describe it is a fairly loud knocking noise that happens every half a second I try and start. Like KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. Don't laugh at me trying to explain it. ;D So where should I START. Cam Chain or Petcock? |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/10 at 17:06:00 CAM CHAIN!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Yonuh Adisi on 02/05/10 at 17:12:50 Definitely cam chain. You are describing what happened to me when my chain went. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by BurnPgh on 02/05/10 at 17:15:22 cam chain. get that right side off. And if i were you i wouldve taken justins advice and not try to start it until you figured it out. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 17:16:46 In this diagram, what is the purpose of the tube directly under the number 2? mine just sort of is tucked back under the seat. http://i47.tinypic.com/2h71kdw.png -Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 17:18:26 Okay cool forget that last post them. Am I going to have REPLACE the cam chain or just adjust it? Should I order some parts. Thanks for being really patient guys. I know I keep asking the same question I just wanna make sure I'm doing it right. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/10 at 17:22:16 get in there and see what's going on, could be wrong. it's just that it's the most dangerous option. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/10 at 17:24:02 0A3E2D213825287C7C7D4C0 wrote:
That's the vac line that goes to the petcock. no wonder why your bike runs only on prime. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 17:27:27 Not the line the arrow is pointing to, but the other line to the left of it, directly under the number 2 in the picture. -Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Yonuh Adisi on 02/05/10 at 17:37:53 That is a vent tube, you should have one on each side of the carb. They do not connect to anything. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by BurnPgh on 02/05/10 at 17:45:49 273423223D3036343F60510 wrote:
That's the vac line that goes to the petcock. no wonder why your bike runs only on prime.[/quote] The line the arrow is pointing to is the vac line. I WOULD say its a vent tube but the vent tube is the line directly above the #2. Im guessing the one below the #2 has something to do with Cali. emissions though it may well still be why your bike only runs in PRI. I have no experience with the california emission set up. As far as the chain goes...open it up and look at the tensioner. If its in 2 peices you need to look for the spring that was in the tensioner housing. After you've done that you should order the verslavy modified tensioner from verslagen. Assuming no damage has been done you can continue to use your chain with the verslavy tensioner FOR A WHILE. Make sure the timing is still correct and install the verslavy tensioner in place of the old one. You should be able to just about double the mileage you have now with the verslavy but you WILL need to replace the cam chain and guides eventually. If the tensioner is still together you dont need to worry much about other damage or correcting the timing, just replace the tensioner with the verslavy tensioner. When you do go to replace the chain/guides make sure you have a clymers or suzuki service manual and go slowly. Its rather involved and intimidating if you arent very mechanically inclined but its quite doable. You'll need to remove the head and to do so you might have to remove the engine from the frame. you will need the following parts bikebandit PNs 479893-001 - chain 479932-001 - front guide 480027-001 - rear guide 475804-001 - head gasket total cost will be about $220 + shipping. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 18:13:22 Does anyone have a link for the verslagen modified tensioner? I can't seem to find it online. -Wes |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/05/10 at 18:21:44 dumb question, nevermind. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/10 at 18:45:37 Verslavy is in the marketplace, stickied on top. Trust me, it's the vac line. You don't need to remove the head to replace the chain. But not a bad idea to take a look at it. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by BurnPgh on 02/05/10 at 19:30:18 4E5D4A4B54595F5D5609380 wrote:
True. To replace just the chain you dont need to remove the head but I did the chain and both guides. To do that the head must come off and I would ( and did) replace the guides with the chain. Nows probably a good time to suggest you look through the cam chain library on here. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/10 at 20:43:53 2116110D33040B630 wrote:
Yep I forgot, I didn't replace the front guide which is captured by the head. But the rear isn't, and I replaced that one only. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Framtid001 on 02/11/10 at 00:14:12 What parts can I replace WITHOUT removing the engine? Can someone in explain basically how i'm going to have to go about replacing the cam shaft tensioner/chain? I have the clymer manual but it's really just confusing me a lot. can I just remove the muffler and replace the camshaft assembly? Do I need to replace the chain as well? can I even replace the chain without taking the engine out since it's located in the head of the engine? |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by serenity3743 on 02/11/10 at 08:53:05 You do not have to remove the engine to get the head cover/cam assembly off, or to replace only the chain and cam chain adjuster (ADJUSTER is the correct term; TENSIONERS refers to 2 plastic guides inside the head.). First, drain the oil. Then remove the RH footpeg/rear brake assembly, followed by the exhaust header/muffler assembly. Then remove the clutch cover. You should have at minimum the following replacement parts: exhaust header gasket, oil filter and oil, new clutch cover gasket, new cam chain, new cam chain adjuster (verslavy recommended), gasket sealant (for mating head cover/cam assembly back onto the head). Sockets/wrenches are all metric, ranging from 8mm on the clutch cover, up to 17mm on the footpeg assembly. Where are you located geographically? There might be one or more members who are close enough to give on-site advice or assistance. Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by Oldfeller on 02/11/10 at 10:46:35 Here is the complete discussion and Tech Guide on ripping down that side of the engine with everything still sitting on the bike. This is within any person's mechanical skill to do, you can do this with metric hand tools, no special tools are needed. YOU WILL NEED TO HAVE A SIDE COVER GASKET ON HAND BEFORE YOU START. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256079122 |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/10 at 05:17:23 Easiest, most certain to succeed method for keeping up with the side cover bolts is draw the cover, poke holes in it & poke each bolt into a slot on the drawing. |
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Title: Re: Grinding sound and fuel issue. Post by serenity3743 on 02/12/10 at 07:52:01 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
Yep, that's what I did. |
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