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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Sudden Battery Death /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1264783093 Message started by nicka on 01/29/10 at 08:38:13 |
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Title: Sudden Battery Death Post by nicka on 01/29/10 at 08:38:13 My 2003 with 5,800 miles was running really well of late, it likes it a bit colder. It has always started instantly; full choke and 1/8 throttle cold; no choke and ¼ throttle warm. Yesterday I stopped for gas and, when I pressed the button , the decompression clicked and the starter cranked the motor ¼ turn only. No lights, no neutral light, nada. I waited a bit, switched to P; no discernible rear light. Called Progressive for a free haul to the stealership (very worthwhile $10 pa). Asked the mechanic to check the battery first (limited experience with Jap modern bikes makes me always suspect the battery) , it was dead. Bike ran fine on the jumped battery but would not run properly when transferred back to its own. This shows that a jump start would have got it started, but that it would have been inoperable. No suitable battery in stock, they installed a new one when it arrived today. They only billed me ½ hour for the job, which I thought very reasonable. Is there any way to easily test for imminent battery failure? It could be quite expensive and is very inconvenient. I put 3,400 miles in one year (mostly short trips) on this (gel) one, dunno what the PO did or how old the battery was. When revved hard, on kickstand, to check the charging, the timing chain made an alarming racket, the mechanic said “they do”; is he right? |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/10 at 08:54:03 I'd pull the clutch cover and check it. See the tect sect for cam chain adjuster check procedure. sudden death seems a bit odd. When you say it starts immediately, do you mean... rev, rev, run or 1/2 rev, run? I ask cause if you have the decomp solenoid set too loose it won't release compression and depending on where the engine stopped last in the stroke cycle will start immediately or will rev up to compression and stop which would be 1/4 rev. This can be hard on the battery and starter. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by jabman on 01/29/10 at 09:27:56 have you checked the oil level. i did mine and the next day the engine took about 6/7 goes to get started, tried to stall all the time etc did the procedure for checking the oil properly and it was over filled i did it before on a non level surface the oil was was slightly over the whole sight glass. i let some out till it was between the lines then all my starting issues went away that was after i pulled half the ignition system to peices sooooooo check the simple things first :) |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by nicka on 01/29/10 at 10:12:23 verslagen1 About 3/4 to 1 rev run. Its running real quiet now - I hate to have to pull the cover off if I dont really need to! Maybe at the 6,000 oil change. Jabman Oil is ok |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Oldfeller on 01/29/10 at 10:25:07 Overfilling to the level you describe has no effect on starting. Some of us fill to that level as a matter of choice, I know I do. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by jabman on 01/29/10 at 10:43:53 4F6C6466656C6C6572000 wrote:
i must of really messed that up well on flat ground, with the engine turned off after 2 mins idling. the bike perfectly balanced up. the view glass was full of oil. tip the bike to the left and some air can be seen. the starting and idling problems where down to this. i let some out and did the same and the oil came between the lines when upright and it started firing 1st crank every time after that thats with a 90 profile rear tyre how do you do yours??? |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Oldfeller on 01/29/10 at 11:32:34 When on the side stand fill it until the oil is just barely visible at the very bottom edge of the sight glass. Now you can check your oil level instantly as you approach the bike because you can readily see it. When upright, oil level IS slightly over the top of the sight glass. However, get someone to crank the bike while you watch the upright window and you will see that it instantly drops a large amount when the oil goes into circulation. So, once the bike is running the crank is not splashing in the oil or doing other sorts of "bad things". Wickers use more oil than normal riders do, it is a given sorta thing -- slightly over filling the window gives you a little more range before having to add some oil. You have a bit more reaction time before going below the window. Because you can easily visually check your oil each time you walk up on the bike, you tend to notice it is down and get some in there before you get dangerously low. Running out of oil is the real engine killer -- don't go there !! (also adding oil is less of a pain the ass since you don't need 4 hands to do it, the bike is just sitting on the side stand as normal so you can easily handle it yourself by yourself) |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/10 at 12:09:59 I can't overfill, it blows out the top. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by jabman on 01/29/10 at 12:10:10 thanks when its on the side stand do the bars need to be straight or over to the left to see any oil in the bottom |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Oldfeller on 01/29/10 at 12:50:41 You pick however you always let it go -- consistency is nice. Verslagen, you already blow or boil a bunch of oil out anyway -- how can you tell which goes which way and which oil came from which cause? Pull your puke tube and rig a temporary tube going down into a clear plastic Coke bottle just to see it it really exits out your puke tube. Bet it doesn't. Should make a right mess in the Coke bottle if it does .... I bet it jest goes past the valve seals and the piston rings into the exhaust gasses jest like Lancer's did. I swear, you and Lancer drink more oil than an Arab Emirate and all his little towel heads -- you make my little occasional 1/8 to quarter quart seem positively parsimonious. ============ What makes you think you stock guys should do whatever we do? We got heavily modified bikes with unusual needs -- we scratch those needs as may be, but you don't necessarily need to do the same. My whole point was a little extra oil is not fatal and it certainly isn't going to cause your bike not to start. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by jabman on 01/29/10 at 13:05:37 my overfill im ashamed to say was alot more then the level you said :-[ a women outside my local car/auto shop filled her engine with oil to the brim must of thought it needed filling up like most of the other bottles in the engine bay you can guess the sound when she tried to start it :o |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/10 at 13:05:52 Theres a "Too Much Oil" level for the engine. When the oil level is so high that , while its running & the oil is circulating & the amount in the crank-case is at its lowest, the crank hits oil. If it hits it because its headed down a slope, then its gonna foam up & foamy oil isnt good at being pressurized & making a film, looking for a big time failure. The people who did the engine design left us some room between the "Fill To" line & the "Thats Too Dammed much OIl" line. Im not sure how much room there is & I'd sure like to. Someone has an idea how far down the rod cap comes at the bottom of the stroke, relative to the oil window, surely. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Oldfeller on 01/29/10 at 17:14:37 Justin, there is an opened engine sitting next to my laptop so let me go look for you and see if I can explain things clearly using just words. (not the easiest thing to do sometimes) The aluminum crankcase protects the crank from the oil bath with an oil shelf that blocks the crank cavity off from everything else that is lower down. It does not block off from behind per se, just below and to the front. Oil has to have a path to drain out of the cavity because oil is supplied to the crank bearings and the bottom of the piston dome for required lubrication and cooling purposes and it would build up in the cavity otherwise. This "block it off" oil shelf exists even with the bottom of the horizontal oil gallery as you view it from outside. You will note that the top of the oil window is very slightly below this same level. Oh heck, let's be pessimistic and say it is on the same level, so pessimists can say the oil can touch the shelf when the oil is slightly over filled the way I do it. Got to give them pessimists something to worry about, otherwise it frustrates them. Remember, crank the bike up and the oil window empties because the oil goes into circulation. The functioning oil level drops below the oil window. So the running oil level is normally at least a half an inch to an inch below the oil shelf that blocks the crank off from the oil pool. OK, let's play worse case make believe. I park the bike facing very strongly (30 plus degrees) down hill with the engine off (can't really do that because the side stand would fold up, but it's a make believe situation anyway). I put several inches of oil into the crank case enclosure portion by doing this and it is just sitting there when I crank the bike over. Splish splash and the bike cranks up -- oil is splashed backwards by the crank over to the open gear section on the inside of the case for the 1-2 seconds it takes for the oil pump and the gears and every thing else to pull the oil level down out of reach as you watched it do through the oil window a bit ago. That's the only static way you can get any amount of oil into the crank cavity portion of the gear case. Park it pointing very steeply down hill .... uphill or flat won't work as the oil can't get in. Reality wise, hitting the brakes very hard or going very steeply downhill while riding could put some oil into the crank cavity and I suspect it happens all the time and the oil splish splashes and drains right back out. If you put an extra whole quart or more of oil in the bike you'd get some standing oil in there, but not enough to impede the starter from cranking the bike up. It would run and smoke a lot until it puked the excess out the breather tube. Remember, Ed did this gross overfill thing on the first Dragon run after we glued his crack shut as he overfilled a part of a quart's worth (he had an oil cooler on his bike and that complicates the fill thing somewhat). I watched him smoke and puke oil out his dump tube, but he was running at 65 mph and keeping up while he did it .... and his bike started just fine. Sounded really good to us when it cranked right back up, it did ... |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Ed L. on 01/29/10 at 18:35:00 Yeah the bike ran great even though it looked like a WW2 fighter going down in smoke ;). I can't see how overfilling the crankcase will affect how the engine starts. When I check the oil level on my '02 I can't just sit it on a 2x4 and check the sight glass, the cooler will drain into the crankcase and look like it is overfilled at the sight glass. Instead I sit the kick stand on a 2x4 with the engine running and add oil till i can see the level appear about 1/3 up the sight glass. My cooler is set up as a parallel system with the flow going thru both the cooler and the regular oil passageways. When your down looking at the sight glass check the engine ground. It is a thin black wire near that area of the engine. If that sucker breaks you will have all types of problems with the battery. Oldfeller my friend, I want your cam :D |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/10 at 20:30:56 If you put an extra whole quart or more of oil in the bike you'd get some standing oil in there, but not enough to impede the starter from cranking the bike up. First, thank you for your very precise & concise reply. A face to face with hands & stuff woulda made that a lot easier on you, but I think I got it. You said " If you put an extra whole quart or more of oil in the bike you'd get some standing oil in there, but not enough to impede the starter from cranking the bike up." & I agree & never did disagree with the start up part.\ I did believe that overfilling would lead to foamed oil, but didnt know what I needed top know about the case design. Again, thanks for the well thought out response. I wish people would go to that level of thinking in the political responses. |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by Oldfeller on 01/30/10 at 02:02:04 Talk to Yoda and Lancer, I jest put it in there as per orders. Kinda like it though .... |
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Title: Re: Sudden Battery Death Post by jabman on 01/30/10 at 09:59:21 i am 100 % certain that over filling oil makes the bike very difficult to start ie more then oldfeller's method |
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