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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> results of JB Weld camshaft fix /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1263857192 Message started by Chief Gunner on 01/18/10 at 15:26:32 |
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Title: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Chief Gunner on 01/18/10 at 15:26:32 Well guys, I know it's been a while but I hit the 1000 mile mark and pulled the top cover today and it doesn't look good. To recap, 1987 milage unknown, I bought the bike from a friend last winter and he reported a blown head gasket. Upon disassembly the head gasket was fine but the wonderful plug under the top cover had sprung a leak while he was riding and he ran it out of oil. Inspection showed significant camshaft journal wear almost like someone had superheated the aluminum and smeared it (yes, smeared) with a screwdriver. I cleaned and sanded the journals to clean it up. I didn't sand it smooth so the JB would have something to cilng to. I deposited a light coat of JB on the journal surfaces, wrapped the camshaft in teflon tape and bolted it together. I let it cure at room temperature for 72 hours and unbolted. The resulting suface was smooth and did not chip or run over. I tested with plastiguage and it showed just under the wear limit. I ran 20W-50 for 200 miles and changed the oil and found no metal shavings ferrous or non-ferrous. Filter showed no deposites either. I continued running 20W50 because of the wear indication. I started noticing a knocking at about 600 miles and checked and reset the valve adjustments hoping it had just backed off on it's own. The knock came back within 150 miles. I removed the top cover today at 1000 miles and the JBweld that had been holding up the cam shaft has turned brown and soft. It has disappeared from the grooves that existed and there is very little remaining. What little remains is much softer than the cured JB that was there when I first reassembled. There is also wear on the rocker arms (thus the knocking) that I have to attribute to the camshaft running in groove beyond it's wear limit. Good news is the wife is just as much in love with the bike as I am and won't even concider trading it in after all the paint and polishing. Think the rides on the back helped too. Bad news is Uncle Sam has other plans for me here shortly so I won't get to look for a new head,top cover, and camshaft till next fall. Quick check online and I'm looking at around 1000 all said and done. A little nervous about what I might end up with if I go E-bay. Sincere thank you, to Old Fellar, Big V, and all that helped me along last winter. It has been a great first bike and fun to learn on. I don't plan on letting it go. I'll try to get my teenager to help me post picks tommorrow so you all can have it for your records. The before picks should still be on here somewhere. If not I'll dig them up. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by BurnPgh on 01/18/10 at 17:20:28 check the marketplace. Seems a parts bike is going out with mostly just cosmetic damage. Maybe the owner would be willing to part with the engine or just head/cover/cam. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by LANCER on 01/18/10 at 17:32:20 You might take a look at these: both companies have very good feedback on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-suzuki-LS650-SAVAGE-LS-650-ENGINE-MOTOR-2196-MILES_W0QQitemZ370311601549QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56384a9d8d Price: US $565.00 Buy It Now 04 suzuki ls650 savage, this auction is for the engine/ motor - complete running & driving engine- only 2,000 miles !! - carb, alternator & starter are not included, we will be posting videos soon of this running & driving bike, bur right now there is snow and ice, so it will be a little while !! we are parting out a complete machine. please make sure you know what your buying, as it never fails i get folks who bid before READING the description.all parts are guaranteed as I say, buy with confidence, we never sell junk. if you would like to see any parts on ebay, email or call. we are selling off a huge inventory of new & used parts, we have parts & bikes from 1966-2007. email any requests or call 217-674-3793 if you like to find out how to save even more $$ on your purchases give us a call or email about our new discount program !! phone & email are below for any questions if you have 0 feedbacks and you dont email or call me first, your bid will be cancelled, if you would like to pay with a credit card call 217-674-3793, we auction items once and if it doesent sell , we list in our store at a 20% higher price than auction listing price to cover fees., dont wait, this is as cheap as you will see it !! We have over 1000 other motorcyles for parts. If you would like to see any of these items, or if there are any other motorcycle parts you are looking for please e-mail motolane@frontiernet.net Shipping is $95-160 in the US 48 states. email zip code for exact quote-- -Paypal is due within 7 days of close of auction. ******************************************** http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Suzuki-Savage-LS650-ENGINE-MOTOR-TRANNY-VIDEOS-6-995-MI_W0QQitemZ350262189000QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518d40dbc8 US $649.95 Buy It Now This came off a well running, 2001 Suzuki Savage LS650 with only 6,999 known miles on it. Please scroll down and watch the videos of the bike running, parts working, etc. Also, please scroll down and review the pictures of the part. All items are used and contain normal wear unless otherwise stated. Most items come with mounting hardware when available, but is absolutely not guaranteed. All items sold as is without warranty, refunds or exchanges. Please be sure to review the posted pictures, terms and conditions at the bottom of the page before bidding or buying. All Ohio customers and in store pickups will be charged Ohio sales tax, currently 6.00% Other items are available for sale for this bike in our ebay store. Please, call us at 330-879-9910 with any questions or concerns about your part. Due to the volume of emails that we receive, emails CANNOT be answered. Please understand this and do not bid unless you are able to contact us with problems or concerns. Major flaws other than normal wear: none known PINWALL PRODUCT ITEM #: 1636-04-112 LBVH ************************************************* |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by serenity3743 on 01/19/10 at 08:32:04 Having been through a failed rebuilding process, I would advise you to just get a new motor from a salvage bike. And boy it's simple to just drop a motor in, as opposed to all the teardown and rebuild. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by srinath on 01/19/10 at 09:51:45 I would machine it and fit a right sized needle bearing in the thing. Those can survive with nearly no oil. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by smokin_blue on 01/19/10 at 18:17:12 4C4D56515E4B573F0 wrote:
I don't think anyone would argue that would be great the challenge is you can't split the needle bearing to get it past either the cams or the cam sprocket. The bearing surface in between is the one that takes the most abuse it seems. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/19/10 at 20:54:47 Sorry, but not surprised. Bummer, Gunner. You must have done a pretty danged good job to get that many miles. Just think aout how many times that thing spun, with the cam chain pulling down on one end. I know its a pain to have to handle the fix, but you really did a heckuva thing. My hat is off to you. Ill bet the folks at JB Weld would be surprised you were able to repair the bearing surfaces well enough to make it last that long. 1,000 miles at an average speed of 30 MPH = 33.3 hours. Real world average speed, including start up, warm up & all the idling at lights & such is, I suspect, a good bit lower than 30, if a bike stays in town. So, if a bike is run around town & hits 45 MPH, tops & is on 30 MPH streets a lot, then the average is gonna be pretty low. IDK your riding style/ shift points, but why dont you stop & think about it a while & guess at the operating speeds/rpm & time at those speeds & see if you can get a rough estimate as to number of engine revolutions over the 1,000 miles. That, X .5 = Camshaft revolutions. Ill bet youll be surprised at just how good a job you must have done, for it to hold together that long. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by BurnPgh on 01/20/10 at 00:16:03 so...I was rereading old posts. Im betting the deterioration of the JB weld is what ultimately caused the failure of phelonius's balancer. He had his balancer screwed in and jb welded or something I think. I could search it up if someone asks. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by srinath on 01/21/10 at 09:15:04 Oooo OK the inner one, with the 1/2 washer - Plain bearing could be an idea there, they come in 2 halves. I would at this point say though its prolly harder than my comment suggested, I have been dealing wiht GS500's too long, they only got outer bearings. Cool. Srinath. 716F6D696B6C5D606E7767020 wrote:
I don't think anyone would argue that would be great the challenge is you can't split the needle bearing to get it past either the cams or the cam sprocket. The bearing surface in between is the one that takes the most abuse it seems.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by smokin_blue on 01/21/10 at 10:14:41 7F7E65626D78640C0 wrote:
I don't think anyone would argue that would be great the challenge is you can't split the needle bearing to get it past either the cams or the cam sprocket. The bearing surface in between is the one that takes the most abuse it seems.[/quote] [/quote] A few of us have pondered plain bearings for a while. we just need to find what is available. Has anyone noticed that on the outboard bearing on the cam chain side (right side of bike) there is no upper bearing half? The only top bearings are at the middle and left side end (cam side) The chain side takes all down load so there is no upper bearing. I can understand why but I would think they would put one in just to contain and control it . |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by verslagen1 on 01/21/10 at 11:10:48 can anybody whip out a caliper and measure those bearing sizes? |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Oldfeller on 01/21/10 at 20:19:05 You can find the specs for the journal ID dimensions and the shaft diameters on the cam shaft on page 145 of your Clymer's manual. All specs are carried out to four English decimal places denoting a 0.0013" to 0.0026" oil clearance range, which was interesting to see written down finally as I have been curious about it for a while now. In short, after all the decimal places clear the air ..... Small end is a 20mm reamed bearing Large end is a 25mm reamed bearing (split in half by a locator half ring washer which complicates things a good bit BTW) Since all journal damage is on the order of .005" or so, it should be possible to remove the locator dowels, flat sand both of the head mating surfaces to clean them up a bit and then replace the dowels and gently clamp the housings together over a custom built 25mm-20mm combo reamer to clean the journals back up to an as-new condition with a twist or two of the greased reamer as you snug the bolts up by slow degrees. (note the 3ird outer saddle half bearing would be included in the reaming action -- as all 3 bearings must line up perfectly within the tiny oil clearance tolerance for the cam to spin freely) This 25mm-20mm combo reamer would be mildly expensive to have made up, but it could be financed by group contributions of the persons interested in using it and thus become more readily affordable to each person in turn. The resulting "refreshed" aluminum journals would lose a little cam chain tension adjustment range and a bit of valve adjustment range, but would be as robust as a new head otherwise. -------------------- All thoughts about adding a removable shell bearing depend on precision machining the dead journals out to some greater diameter. This machining is dependent on mounting the irregular assembled head against some fixture in a reliable fashion. This turns into a head mounting plate fixture on a milling machine driving a combination 2 step milling cutter. And yes, I spent some time thinking about the subject. I promised Serenity I would when I took his junk engine. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by verslagen1 on 01/21/10 at 21:48:05 Look up a vdub line boring jig. I wished I took a close look at it 30 years ago. I like your concept, could be done as 3 stepped bushings mounted on a bar. Right before the step would be a adjustable cutter. 1st part of the step bushing would serve as a guide. End bearing most likely would need to be a sepparate cutter with the other 2 acting as guides. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Oldfeller on 01/21/10 at 22:44:26 http://bugpatch.com/ I was thinking more of a simple solid HSS stepped reamer made up of all blade surfaces and made long enough to cut all 3 of the 25mm surfaces at the same time the 20mm surfaces were cut -- that way by definition everything would line up within the small oil film clearance. CNC grinding technology makes such stuff possible, but you have to pay a design charge to write the program for your specialty cutter, then pay to have the X copies made. More coins than I have, anyway. Not more coins than "we as a group" would have, but more than me as "jest me" has got. =============== You can buy shell reamers, but they generally have tapered mounting bars which makes stringing them together kinda tough. If you found a straight shank shell reamer mgf, you could glue them on a straight mounting mandrel -- if if if Still pricey, too rich for my blood as "jest me". Still, Lancer needs it, I could use it & who else is out there with a crapped out head due to cam journal bugger up that might be interested? |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by srinath on 01/22/10 at 07:47:30 Vers - exactly what I was thinking. Cam boring though. You have a VW ... I have a 1835 fitted 69 convertible. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Oldfeller on 01/22/10 at 12:01:26 Quotes on the combo reamer I have gotten to date are relatively large $$ numbers like $280 plus shipping (six required to place an order). So you can see why I am stalled on that path since until you DO it with the reamer you can never be sure if it will work out or not. ============ It is possible using the blackening and scraping techniques covered here to hand fit the bearing journals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJd8Zwd9L1k http://www.smokstak.com/articles/babbitt.html This requires very little money except for the plastigage kits you use to prove to yourself you really have gotten it right. It does require endless time and endless patience .... .... endless :-/ .... endless :-[ I'll tell you about it when I finally get done. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/23/10 at 08:20:28 Could a regular reamer be cut down at a machine shop to make it a combo? I know it would have to be annealed & re-treated, but for that kinda $$$, I think its not unreasonable to believe its possible to get one fixed up. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Oldfeller on 01/23/10 at 09:20:41 Yes, if the teeth are tall enough to grind down far enough and still have some tooth there to do the 20mm cutting. Six flute reamers might not have enough height, a deep cut 4 flute is what has been quoted before. I will "prototype" the functionality of the general idea by hand dressing (scraping) the journals. This will allow fit and function testing on reassembly for valve adjustment, clearance, tappet clearance etc. If it all works OK, then maybe somebody will front a reamer to be passed around as needed. |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by verslagen1 on 01/23/10 at 09:28:02 I'm a little concerned about feeding such a reamer in. Unless it's fixtured, likelyhood of it being fed in straight are low. Could it be inserted in fully, then slowly tighten the head cover bolts? |
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Title: Re: results of JB Weld camshaft fix Post by Oldfeller on 01/23/10 at 10:06:44 Yep, add flute filling heavy grease to your thought and you have it. The grease provides new cutting lubricant each time you nudge the bolts down a tiny bit and give it yet another twist. You could never 'feed it in end wise " accurately enough, wobble would kill you as the sharp reamer would remove the wobble material as it occurred. You will have enough fun being light handed enough with the bolts to be able to take the very light shavings you need to take to keep everything under control when simply rotating the reamer in place. PROVIDED YOU HAVE A REPEATABLE REASONABLY ACCURATE SET OF HOLLOW LOCATOR DOWELS, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO RE-MATCH A SET OF MISMATCHED HEADS AND COVERS USING THE COMBO REAMER TRICK. Factory max air gap spec is two and a half thou so you should be able to dress in that much mismatch and not even exceed factory specs. I suspect many of us run twice that much air gap due to simple wear on our older bike's well worn journals and don't even notice it. Here is a trick or point to consider. The wear on the 3 bottom head journal portions is all in line with each other -- it might look nasty but it is tight to the mating cam journals and it is in line with each other. Just clean it up carefully with 320 grit wet or dry on your finger tip to remove all the debris and wear oxides. Then just lower the cover's half moon journals by selectively flat sanding the entire face of the cover and keeping careful track of the air gap using plastigage. This allows a careful "scraping hand" to refit the cover to the head to the cam shaft journals without an expensive reamer. The reamer would make it a whole lot quicker though, fer shure. |
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