|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Smoking Issue /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1260147237 Message started by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 16:53:56 |
|
Title: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 16:53:56 Issue: Engine is running and blowing blue smoke out the exhaust. I have replaced valve stem seals ... still blowing blue smoke. Prior to disassembly there was no problem with oil getting past rings. Piston, rings and cylinder are good. What else could cause oil to get into the combustion chamber ? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/06/09 at 17:05:47 Put some Sea Foam in the oil to free the rings up. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 17:16:11 5D56535309083F0 wrote:
The cylinder, piston//rings, head were just recently reassembled, so all are perfectly clean. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Serowbot on 12/06/09 at 17:54:05 filter clogged on your oil vent tube?... |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 17:57:47 6B7D6A776F7A776C180 wrote:
filter not on it; the tube is open |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 18:07:34 I have had a nagging thought ....... could I have installed the piston without the rings ? I know I remember installing them and spacing the ring gaps around the piston; but did I remove them later and forget to reinstall when rechecking the cylinder ? I am second guessing myself now; crazy eh ? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by RidgeRunner13 on 12/06/09 at 18:16:18 How long have you ran it since reassembly? How badly is it smoking? light? heavy? Did you hone the bore before reassembly? Reuse old rings? need more info. A fresh engine will sometimes smoke until everything 'reseats'. Some assembly lubes will cause rings to seat slower. The smoke would be really heavy if you left the oil rings out. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 18:29:18 5F64696A685F786363687F3C3E0D0 wrote:
Piston, rings and cylinder bore are untouched and are as they were before, when it was running just fine. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by photojoe on 12/06/09 at 19:19:25 6E636C6167703035020 wrote:
I sometimes second guess myself after buttoning up. Best thing to do is look for the rings. If you can't find them, they should be on the piston. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/06/09 at 19:21:56 check the compression no compression no rings |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/06/09 at 19:37:00 796A7D7C636E686A613E0F0 wrote:
;) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/06/09 at 21:25:28 Is it billowing smokes like before? Just idle or running about? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/07/09 at 02:50:37 574453524D4046444F10210 wrote:
On initial startup, it was billowing like before, but did decrease after a bit. When running up and down the dirt road above the driveway it is smoking like an old 2-stroke. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/07/09 at 04:21:58 But some Sea Foam in the oil to seal the rings. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Routy on 12/07/09 at 04:53:32 Smokin like a 2 stroke ??.......... Did you have your weedeater gas can marked well ? ::) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 12/07/09 at 04:57:57 Seafoam/Stabil treated gas causes smoking, especially if mixed a little thick. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by serenity3743 on 12/07/09 at 07:37:44 717C737E786F2F2A1D0 wrote:
Wouldn't there also be some extra knocking if the rings were absent? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Serowbot on 12/07/09 at 07:54:31 don't think it would run at all without rings... no vacuum, no gas... |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by RidgeRunner13 on 12/07/09 at 07:59:29 Won't run without compression rings, will run without oil ring set. Just like a 2-stroke. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/07/09 at 08:29:37 424D574C505645474F4156240 wrote:
;D Fresh gas used |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Routy on 12/07/09 at 09:34:12 Quote: Wouldn't there also be some extra knocking if the rings were absent? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If" it would run, I don't think there would be any knocking, because in theory, the piston is not supposed to touch the cylinder wall, as the bottom 2/3 of it is supposed to be riding on a film of oil, and the top 1/3 is several thousanths smaller than the bottom, so it is never suppose to touch the cyl wall anyway. The only thing that normally wears the cyl wall is the rings. Did we really care ? ::) :) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/07/09 at 09:38:33 Compression & detonation might well spit that film of oil down into the crank case if theres no rings.. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Charon on 12/07/09 at 09:40:12 I have never tried it, but by some accounts some racing engines are operated without rings. Omitting the rings reduces friction. Compression may be lower, but the film of oil will still provide a pretty good seal. The gap between the piston and cylinder is only a couple of thousandths, and at operating speed there isn't enough time to let the compression leak out completely. Oil consumption will be high. I imagine the spark plug might foul pretty quickly, too. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/07/09 at 09:49:37 If it's not the valves and not the rings... only other place is the head gasket. Now I just R&R'd a head cover and I wondered what in heck is that figure 8 o-ring is for? It bleeds off a little bit of oil to go where? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 12/07/09 at 19:14:38 two throughts...first if the rings were mis aligned....aligned that is so the end gaps lined up you can get excessive oil transfer. Second thought....this is exactly what savage greg had if I remember right. when he disassembled if I remember right he found his rings were just plain sacked out. search back for a Greg thread right before he disappeared from the forum...he discussed it at length and then finally disassembled and found the problem....new rings I belive were the solution. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/08/09 at 10:00:28 Quote:
Wait, you had the jug (cylinder) off????? Did you re-hone the bore? My grandfather use to say, "you take the piston out of the jug, buy new rings and hone the bore. You'll be sorry if you don't". Yes, I have not always heeded his words :-?. And, he's was right. Remember Savage Greg's experience last year..... EDIT: reason is that when you take the jug off, there is no way you can get the rings lined up to the grooves in the bore. It will take way more mileage to break in the engine. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/08/09 at 10:26:48 The bore's nikosil'd, no rehoning that. Rings gone bad due to a dry run maybe? Did you ever figure out what was that screech before it quit? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Charon on 12/08/09 at 11:27:03 Rings on a four-stroke engine are not usually pinned, so they can and do rotate around the piston. When one reassembles an engine, one usually tries to place the rings so the end gaps don't line up, but they aren't guaranteed to stay that way. Two-stroke engines usually have pins in the ring grooves, so the ends of the rings can't migrate into the ports where they might snag and break. There is the unpleasant possibility that one of the rings broke during reassembly. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 12/08/09 at 16:08:21 How about you take it all apart again and check each item as you take it apart. Valve stem clearances, valve stem seals, head gasket seal, O rings, piston itself (cracked crown, cracked ring grooves) all rings, ring positions, assembly of each ring (upside down), the assembly of the 3 part oil scraper assembly (it ain't just a simple oil ring). Check your nikasil bore for flaking or separation as you did have a "screecher" when you tried it time before last time. Make sure the nikasil is rough enough to seat a new ring (my favorite pick for this mystery illness) Then put it all back together early enough for it to be running good by June 21st (froggie time). Me, I'd run the revv'n crap out of it for a while to see if it will seat/seal itself. Leastwise you will eventually figure out what's what when it (whatever it is) finally finishes breaking itself properly. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/08/09 at 21:43:43 Wind that dude out in 3rd & SLAP the throttle shut a few times.. Thatll set those rings down tight on the bore. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Routy on 12/09/09 at 05:23:22 Quote: there is no way you can get the rings lined up to the grooves in the bore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Probably not a serious reply, but there better not be any vertical grooves (or even a deep scratch) whatsoever in the barrel, or you have definently found not only the oil problem, but also lack of expression ! :o :-[ |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/09/09 at 07:22:59 [quote author=4C4359425E584B49414F582A0 link=1260147237/30#30 date=1260365002]Quote: there is no way you can get the rings lined up to the grooves in the bore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Probably not a serious reply, but there better not be any vertical grooves (or even a deep scratch) whatsoever in the barrel, or you have definently found not only the oil problem, but also lack of expression ! :o :-[/quote] He's talking about the microgrooves that ARE the seating in process, |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/09/09 at 12:53:19 47585E5944437242724A58541F2D0 wrote:
Bingo..... Routy, Sorry, many times I talk/type like everyone is a tech. We usually leave out what we think is understood. Lancer said the bore was good, but the instant a piston moves up & down there are micro grooves. T.M. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/09/09 at 19:53:21 I have been diverted the last couple of days with electrical wiring for the kitchen makeover project. I have not been able to find my compression check kit...I thought I had one ...... could be living in a fatanacy tool world though...I think I need to pick one up tomorrrow. I will check for cylinder pressure then. I suspect that compression is adequate, based on how it is running. Power seems decent when considering the oil blowing through the engine. I need to drop a needle size; power drops off from about 1/2 throttle. I will take it down the road again in the morning after changing the needle and see if the oil blow is decreasing or not. The cyliinder walls were in reallyl good condition when pulled apart (one scratch on the wall of about 2.5-3" from a piece of grit of some sort but it is of no concern). The crosshatching of the bore/hone job done previously was still visible on about 40% of the cyl. wall. I need to call Boretech about doing another hone and new rings or if the current ones are ok. I will do that tomorrow. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 12/10/09 at 02:47:56 The simple old test as usually oil comes from two places..rings from below for valve seals from above. To test have some one follow you. Get out and get on it (throttle) when you slap the throttle shut like for a shift if you get a big puff of smoke it is pulling oil down through the valve seals if it s just constant then it is probably sacked out rings. If I remember right Greg determined his were just plain sacked out and putting the old ones back on did not function as they were supposed to. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/10/09 at 03:21:35 3927252123241528263F2F4A0 wrote:
The engine only had about 8k miles on it since the new piston with bore/hone + silicone carbide treatment. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/10/09 at 05:36:47 38353A3731266663540 wrote:
The engine only had about 8k miles on it since the new piston with bore/hone + silicone carbide treatment.[/quote] Yet the rings had folded ? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Routy on 12/10/09 at 06:06:00 Ok,......it was a serious reply, so are we in the thinking that the rings never turn on a piston ? I hope we all know they do. Maybe I been outta this business too long ! I never heard the term "microgrooves" when I was in the business. [quote author=48475D465A5C4F4D454B5C2E0 link=1260147237/30#30 date=1260365002]Quote: there is no way you can get the rings lined up to the grooves in the bore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Probably not a serious reply, but there better not be any vertical grooves (or even a deep scratch) whatsoever in the barrel, or you have definently found not only the oil problem, but also lack of expression ! :o :-[/quote] |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/10/09 at 09:41:32 Im creative that way. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/10/09 at 11:58:49 646B716A76706361696770020 wrote:
They can rotate ... yes. At less till seated. But...... is there really anyway to see it they rotate once they're seated.....???? :-? I hazard a gues-stimate that once seated they do not..... otherwise they would never be seated.... yes/no??? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 12/10/09 at 18:06:37 Here is the one I was thinking of. If this didn't copy right start reading about page 7. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1193681509/90 oh ya I might have misspoke earlier...it was Savage_greg that had the problem. Sacked out rings in a new hone job. No go after 130 miles on rebuild. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/11/09 at 08:41:37 I just got off the phone with a tech dude from Boretech and his thoughts were, considering the details of what has transpired, that this is probably an oil ring issue and recommended a new ring set along with a ball honing of the cylinder wall. Perhaps the ring lost some tension during the process of disassembly and reassembly. He suggested that I take a magnified closeup look at the ring set before removing from the piston to see if the problem can be identified. So back out she comes. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/09 at 08:50:48 Next time you talk to him, ask about rings rotating in the bore. I say generally not, but that an occasional ring will. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by RidgeRunner13 on 12/11/09 at 08:54:15 Check out these- http://www.totalseal.com/. I've used these in 4 cyl. race engines that turn 8k & they are great. Used the same set for 3 seasons & still only had 2-3% leakdown, compression 185-195. IMHO, these are worth the money. They also pass less contaminants into your oil. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/11/09 at 11:59:48 6D606F6264733336010 wrote:
5F26466A68603A0B0 wrote:
I can feel my late grandfather pointing his finger at us from up above..... |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 12/11/09 at 18:57:19 0E030C0107105055620 wrote:
Take a look at Gregs posting but I think it was ring gap that was out of spec for his....I think they were not pressing against the wall the way they should have. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/12/09 at 13:35:12 6977757173744578766F7F1A0 wrote:
Take a look at Gregs posting but I think it was ring gap that was out of spec for his....I think they were not pressing against the wall the way they should have. [/quote] I went back and read through Greg's postings earlier. I did a compression check today and got a consistant 150-152 over 3 test runs. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/12/09 at 13:37:37 Try some SeaFoam in the oil you will be surprised. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/12/09 at 14:23:53 Great! Comp ring is fine, but the oil control that wipes the cylinder on the downstroke to keep oil from running up between piston & cylinder might be in the crapper.. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Charon on 12/12/09 at 15:18:56 Tell us, Bill, how a couple of ounces of thinner oil (Seafoam) in two quarts of presumably new motor oil is going to make a difference. Take into account that the original poster says the cylinder, piston, and rings are already clean. How can you clean the already clean? How is thinning the oil going to improve the seal? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/12/09 at 15:42:18 272C29297372450 wrote:
You just dont know Bill,,Charon, YOU are just certain his unspoken words were " At how much it helps"...I know Bill. He was really saying "At how much worse it smokes"... |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/12/09 at 15:48:08 Time to pull'er apart and see what the oil ring looks like. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/12/09 at 18:24:39 5D56535309083F0 wrote:
Do it |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by BurnPgh on 12/12/09 at 18:27:21 might aswell. Might get yourself a miracle and save youself a teardown. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/12/09 at 19:37:19 Really, it IS a shot..if that should fail, you can try poking a needle in a model of the engine. Rip the head off a chikkin, do a little dance.. Ive seen stories of the greatness of Sea Foam. Id at least gib it a shot. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/13/09 at 05:12:54 OK OK OK....... I will get some S/F today and run it through and run down the road and we will see what happens. Personally, I think I have a broken or collapsed oil ring. Anyway, all shall be revealed in due time. :) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/13/09 at 05:28:02 212C232E283F7F7A4D0 wrote:
Personally, I think I have a broken or collapsed oil ring. I agree, but for the $$$, why not give it a try? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/13/09 at 05:30:13 I will pick up the S/F on the way back from church today and run it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Routy on 12/13/09 at 05:36:48 Just curious, are these 1 pc oil rings, or more pcs w/ expander and spacers ? And 1 or 2 comp rings ? No, I don't have a book. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by BurnPgh on 12/13/09 at 10:01:33 3 peice oil rings, 2 compression rings |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/13/09 at 18:36:46 1D363F2C31305E0 wrote:
Actually, slightly thinner oil will make it seat faster. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 12/27/09 at 04:26:28 I had a little time to play with the bike; drained the oil to see how it looked...... really dark and funky looking, which would be expected considering the oil blowing through the combustion chamber. However, there was also some metal in the oil as can be seen in this photo of the filter mount from the right side of the case. http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp99%3A%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3336949%3A32339nu0mrj Not good news .......... time for the top end to come off. Looks like I will have the opportunity to intall the 97mm piston into a newly bored cylinder. It is Boretech time. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/27/09 at 09:34:33 You run a magnet thru that Lancer? How much is aluminum? That aint a pretty sight, sir. Sure hate to see that. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 12/27/09 at 13:18:31 And people wonder why we puts magnets on our oil filters .... She don't lookie good, them's little shavings ain't they? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/27/09 at 13:54:10 We don't put magnets on our oil filter,We don't use car tires on motorcycles,We don't use diesel oil in our motorcycles,And for some strange reason we never have a problem,Doing it the old fashion way. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by MMRanch on 12/27/09 at 16:41:05 So we had special bike tires befor we had bikes ? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Ed L. on 12/27/09 at 18:55:55 Not a good sight at all, those flakes look like aluminium so lets hope your bore is still good. It's time for some exploratory surgery. :( |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/27/09 at 21:23:13 474C49491312250 wrote:
& magnets on oil filters cant hurt anything, can only help. Car tires should really have a big effect on the life of an engine & Rotella has recently been relabeled to pacify the m/c crowd. Not reformulated, it was as it is, a good oil that will pass the tests the m/c manufacturers call for. Now, what has caused the problem? The autopsy will tell it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/27/09 at 23:20:44 283731362B2C1D2D1D25373B70420 wrote:
& magnets on oil filters cant hurt anything, can only help. Car tires should really have a big effect on the life of an engine & Rotella has recently been relabeled to pacify the m/c crowd. Not reformulated, it was as it is, a good oil that will pass the tests the m/c manufacturers call for. Now, what has caused the problem? The autopsy will tell it. [/quote] If god had wanted us to put magnets in oil filters he would have given us the inteligence to do so... well at least some of us. ;D |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 12/28/09 at 03:06:03 Bill is just poking at us to get him some sort of reaction -- jest let him be or else he'll start telling Lancer he shoulda used Klotz sewing machine oil to keep that whatever from happening. ============ I'm more concerned that when Lancer gets Rex torn down it will be bore & piston and mebbe some sort of oiling system pressure related issue that are gonna be a "big down" that will keep Rex in his box for a while. We are counting down at T-7 months to the third annual Dragon time .... with poor old Rex slowly heading towards his boxes instead of spending them nice springtime days honing his tires getting ready to head towards the mountains. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/28/09 at 03:16:21 554651504F4244464D12230 wrote:
& magnets on oil filters cant hurt anything, can only help. Car tires should really have a big effect on the life of an engine & Rotella has recently been relabeled to pacify the m/c crowd. Not reformulated, it was as it is, a good oil that will pass the tests the m/c manufacturers call for. Now, what has caused the problem? The autopsy will tell it. [/quote] If god had wanted us to put magnets in oil filters he would have given us the intelligence to do so... well at least some of us. ;D[/quote] How is a few guys have been playing around a few years only on Savage.com are more intelligent than the auto and motorcycles engineers with over 100 years of experience.It must be a conspiracy so we have to buy new motorcycles and cars. ::) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/28/09 at 07:50:54 53585D5D0706310 wrote:
Now there's a slogen for you... 'life begins on a savage' And auto engineers are older than dirt. :P |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 12/28/09 at 13:44:05 Verslagen, he also is arguing with the engineers telling them they ain't as smart as ..... engineers. This always tickles me for some reason. Almost as good as him telling me all about tires and what was intended by Dunlop/Goodyear and the other tire inventors to go on where. ============ Did you ever get any communications back from Sluggo or Mysterious about your offer? Big quiet as far as I can see, I'd have to take it as a not home or a not interested, whichever should logically apply. ============ Both you and Lancer have each declared for a bigger piston with a raised dome top -- look'n forward to hearing about the installs and the results. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/28/09 at 13:59:07 647B7D7A6760516151697B773C0E0 wrote:
Rotella passed the test with a D,Why not pay a little more and use and oil that passes with a A+ grade. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 12/29/09 at 07:32:45 5F7E4556341A0 wrote:
Yea, sort of loks like aluminun. I hope the cam journal is ok..... :-? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/29/09 at 08:20:32 41385874767E24150 wrote:
Yea, sort of loks like aluminun. I hope the cam journal is ok..... :-?[/quote] But then, If its the just the cam journals, at least that engines guts may be awwrite. My thots exactly |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 12/29/09 at 08:55:08 for all the magnet guys and gals out there just remember you will only catch magnetic particles and aluminum is not magnetic so unless you are taking shavings off steel or iron parts you won't collect much. On the flip side if you are making steel shavings they would be good to get out of the oil stream. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 12/29/09 at 09:13:42 Magnets are a trick we've learnt from the extended life oil filter guys. magnetic filters don't care about the particulate size, only that it's magnetic. Some super fine sludge will collect around the maget and pull it out of suspension. Magnetic oil plugs have been around a long time. placing it on the filter just puts the magnet in a better spot. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by bill67 on 12/29/09 at 09:23:59 Theres a lot of magicians here with all kinds of tricks ::) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 01/02/10 at 07:31:55 The magnetic drain plug had some super fine particals on it; too fine to even feel gritty; just very smooth. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/02/10 at 09:06:55 3E333C3137206065520 wrote:
Mine does that all the time. Every oil change, thers something there. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 01/11/10 at 05:28:58 The head is off: -cylinder is ok -piston top is ok -do not have a good look at the oil ring set yet -cam journals do not look good -evidence of heat on rockers...cam lobe end -cam looks ok I have some photos but am away from home right now so will post them later |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 01/12/10 at 03:33:12 414C434E485F1F1A2D0 wrote:
Lancer, is this your high compression engine? Do you think the top end damage was caused by loss of oil pressure or heat? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 01/12/10 at 07:18:03 706E6C686A6D5C616F7666030 wrote:
Lancer, is this your high compression engine? Do you think the top end damage was caused by loss of oil pressure or heat? [/quote] Only oil can take the heat off of the rockers and prevent journal damage. Lancer, you shaved the cylinder or the head? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 01/12/10 at 08:00:16 journals affected slightly http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp997%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D33444%3B%3B589339nu0mrj Got just a wee bit warm here http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp997%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D33444%3A9%3B84339nu0mrj cam looks worse than it is...discolored from hot oil but not damaged on lobes or bearing area http://images1f.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp9%3A8%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D33444%3A9%3B85339nu0mrj http://images1f.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp8%3C6%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D33444%3B%3C%3B%3C4339nu0mrj chamber with carbon but no damage http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp999%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D33444%3B%3C%3B%3C6339nu0mrj |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 01/12/10 at 08:42:11 3 things I see... smearing material in the cam journal, could be cause cam was hot and over expanded. Could be caused by very little gasket material. Clymer says set the head cover bolts finger tight, wait an hour then torque. extra sealant in the figure 8 pocket. Don't know how much oil is supposed to flow thru here or where it goes, but if it's blocked it ain't gettin' nothin'. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 01/12/10 at 11:22:33 If these pics are taken "as disassembled" with no detail brake cleaner cleaning then you got no oiling going on to the top end at all. Your bathtub is dry, bone dry. Please tell us this is after detailed cleaning and blowing everything off with an air hose ... This does not explain your smoking issue though -- running your head dry would not result in smoking out the exhaust pipe. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Charon on 01/12/10 at 14:42:20 The picture of the head and cam, with cam chain in place, looks as if the head is still on the engine. I cannot see any way to have the head as clean as it is, unless the whole assembly was cleaned with solvent prior to removing the head. The picture of the head cover, with the little O-ring in place, almost looks as if some sealant got into the passage and blocked the oil flow. I suspect the only oil flowing into the head comes in through that passage and goes to the cam journals, from which it runs out into the "bathtub" and is splashed around the head by the cam lobes. The parts showing damage are the only parts with a "wiping" action - the cam journals and the rocker lobes where they rub the cam. They appear to have suffered from lack of oil. Too bad that doesn't explain the smoking issue. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by LANCER on 01/12/10 at 18:00:06 There was a little oil in the bathtubs when the head cover was first removed. I wiped out the oil with paper towels prior to taking the photo shots. Lancer, is this your high compression engine? Compression just slightly higher than stock Oil ring set on piston has little to no spring left in it; barely extends beyond the piston wall at all. Oil goes up on right rear passage and drips back down on right front. http://images1.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp342%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32338747%3C74%3A4nu0mrj |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 01/12/10 at 18:40:06 Don't forget to check your clutch side cover gasket to make sure sealant is not restircting the tiny oil passage. Second.... when I rebuilt mine, the owner of the salvage yard where I got the used good head said to loosen the oil passage head cover bolt and make sure you get oil out. When I tested mine, I took the sparkplug out so no load on engine, and crank crank crank .... nothing. Then took the bolt all the way out, looked down to see if I could see any oil.... crank crank crank splat :o ...... oil all over the face... shot up a good foot or so. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 01/12/10 at 18:41:54 6E17775B59510B3A0 wrote:
I hope you don't do black powder rifles. :o |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 01/12/10 at 18:54:07 The Elmer Fudd look......... ;D |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 01/12/10 at 21:51:54 I have considered putting a 1/8 NF pipe tapped hole to the front of my oil gallery on the spare engine so as to run a simple short braided line to the handle bar oil pressure gauge (mounted up on the handle bar) so I will know what I am getting on the actual top end gallery oil pressure at all times. Why do this? Because if you are running damaged journals with opened up gap clearances your effective idle oil pressure at that head journal area will be greatly reduced due to increased "leakage" out the increased gaps around the cam journals. We likely need to run a higher idle speed after a damage event just to get the same very minimal oil pressure at the bearings as we have got increased gap leakage that works against us .... Taking the oil pressure at the lower case gallery does not tell the same story as ONLY THE PRESSURE AT THE CAM GALLERY COUNTS FOR ANYTHING AS ONLY IT APPLIES TO ANYTHING THAT IS "HEAD DEATH" SIGNIFICANT. If you had a blocked oil passage or misplaced gasket, this would tell you the tale. If you had enlarged gaps and were running low on idle speed pressure because of the gaps this would tell you the tale. Think of this all as a calculus "related rates" problem. At low engine speeds your supply rate at the head can be lower than normal due to oil pump wear, partially trash blocked passages, etc. On the pressure consumption side of the equation the cam to journal gap has increased by 2x or more, greatly increasing the volume of oil that can exit the upper gallery pressure zone. ((flow pressure in) minus (flow pressure out)) = remaining oil pressure to support bearing function ============ All older savage engines have cam journal damage to some degree. Yep, yours does too -- you jest don't know about it yet. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 01/13/10 at 08:55:17 There are a number of cross drilled and plugged ports throughout the oil passages. I plan on drill and tapping a few for monitoring pressure or temperature when I put in the level 1 cam. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 01/13/10 at 18:00:32 Ok if you want to talk oiling the cam journals why not take a lead from the oil cooled GSX-R generation. When they built a hypo head they would add extra top end oiling two ways. First they tied the cam oiling together through and external line shown here. Note the silver line across the side of the head. http://motorbike-search-engine.co.uk/Custom/suzuki-bandit-streetfighter.jpg Now before you blast me with we only have one cam shaft you dumb.... Take note of the second step they would do. The next step in the upgrade chain was a tie that also dropped a line straight down to the pump port on the lower right side of the engine that was used to check/confirm oil pressure in the shops. So what they did was run a line basically straight up from the pump to the cam galley so that that expensive top end got oil the minute the pump started turning. Now looking at the Savaqe manual on the same page Lancer posted this would be equivalent to running a line out the bottom or front threaded fitting and into the small plug (drill out and tap for a banjo bolt or fitting) that exists on the right end of the cam galley on the head cover. (there is one on the left side also.) There is also a plug on the top of the engine case on that side also that could be used for a cleaner look. This way you shoot oil straight up to the cam galley and bypass the long slow route through the back of the engine. If anyone doesn't undertand from looking at the picture I linked to I can try to find a better one that has the full kit. Thoughts?? |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by verslagen1 on 01/13/10 at 18:28:38 What you smokin' blue? ;D jk The only advantage would be for the cam to get extra lube while the rest of the engine got less. And the oil would be unfiltered. I would look into a high flow oil pump 1st, external filter next, and cooling. 1st on my list is an oil cooler, summer heat just boils it off at the speeds I go. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 01/14/10 at 03:46:37 3F2C3B3A25282E2C2778490 wrote:
Two items. If you come out the the small plug on the top of the case that I described that would be after the filter. Second, if the cam journals are a high pressure drop application then it would only get the oil it needs and not short anything else. If it were a lower pressure drop application then it might drop pressure to other parts of the engine. At this point the cam bearing surfaces in the head are the only oil related failures then maybe they should receive the oil. The other areas of the engine don't seem to have any failure problems. I agree a higher volume oil pump would be nice but at this point no one has found one that fits. This design is fragile if you can wipe out a head by droping the idle to where it still runs but doesn't provide enough oil pressure to lube the top end. |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by smokin_blue on 01/14/10 at 06:26:02 607364657A7771737827160 wrote:
Two Stroke Exhaust.....doesn't get much better! (thats why it's blue 8-) ) |
|
Title: Re: Smoking Issue Post by Oldfeller on 01/14/10 at 08:00:04 Smok'n You got it -- if we drop our idle speed too low then we die the death of 10,000 little scrubs. Too many did this while learning about the idle speed trick (some just liked the loping sound of a very low idle speed). Suzuki recommends a 1,000 to 1,100 rpm idle speed, but after a cam event like Lancer just had he will require a slightly higher idle speed as his head will leak more oil out the enlarged bearing gaps. Verslagen is correct, we have flow and pressure issues out of our oil pump at low rpms. Our oiling system is a minimal system, it has no over pressure regulation at all so it was designed to pump at max rpm a designed flow that could exit the system through the existing passages. It can pump too little at idle and too much at max rpms. Take me for example, I am a wicker with a stage 2 cam. I run me some high RPMs and I suffer from extreme oil pressure making the side cover oil gallery at the top of the case difficult to keep pressure sealed and leak free. So you see we can have issues at both ends of things because of the oiling system the bike comes with. ============ The stage 2 cam from Web Cam has had the steel cam journals dressed down a bit to slightly below the Suzuki factory diameter specs so I have "increased journal clearances" for that reason. I need to run a sightly increased idle speed to make sure I keep good oiling going on when sitting at a stop light. ============ Lancer will also possibly have some additional issues setting his valve clearances as the extra gap he now has is an appreciable percentage of his intake valve clearance number. "Durn, I set it and it was right, I come around again to check it and it's way too (tight :-/ loose)." (you pick what happens this cam rotation turn around) |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |