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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> $17.00 side cover gasket /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256381039 Message started by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 03:43:59 |
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Title: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 03:43:59 Let's talk about overly expensive gaskets for a second. The list got tired of getting ripped for $90 cam chains and we spec'd an improved version for $45. I just priced a side cover gasket and with shipping the side cover gasket would be $20 after shipping. I also just looked at an attempt to avoid this fiscal rape that turned out wrong and cost a guy a motor. How much should a paper gasket cost? ======================== Let me explain further by use of a Youtube video -- there are folks out there who make a cottage industry of cutting out paper gaskets using this sort of equipment. You can stack the paper and run the program multiple times until the stack is cut through. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFGcqc-gfiw&feature=related There are also commerical paper cutting businesses that cut stacks of paper material using water jet and laser cutters as well as digital needle cutters and blade punch presses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlQe8iFRlsM&feature=related We can create our own design for a cardstock gasket for the side covers that is stronger and better than the weakly structured Suzuki gasket that can only be used about once without tearing. But ... feasibility -- how much should a cardstock thickness gasket cost? Let's find out the market value to us as a list then figure out what can be done at that cost. Hey, we may wind up putting out a .JPEG image that you print and cut out with a pair of scissors if that is the price point that is chosen. but with this stuff out there, why bother? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_3o1OiLcO4&NR=1 |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by kk lewi on 10/24/09 at 05:47:20 0C2F2725262F2F2631430 wrote:
Hmmm, with the technology shown $17 does seem a bit excessive. What can we do about it tho? |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 06:39:29 "But ... feasibility -- how much should a cardstock thickness gasket cost? Let's find out the market value to us as a list then figure out what can be done at that cost." First, answer the 10 cent question, how much should a side gasket made of card stock or poster board cost? Then you know how much potential you have to seek a solution at that price. Somebody says $10 you can have them cut commercially (depending on how many are needed). Somebody says $5 you are searching for a hobbiest that has one of the machines that wants to make a dollar or two on the side. Answer depends on what is wanted, or how fancy you want it to be. $17 ain't no answer though .... that's a stealership bendover with no cigarette offered afterwards. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by kk lewi on 10/24/09 at 08:21:39 77545C5E5D54545D4A380 wrote:
Very true but that is the going price. I can charge $100 for a tasty cup of lemonade. If someone will pay that price should I reduce or increase it? I sure wish I could make that piece of $0.02 paper but I can't. Therefore I have to pay the man $17. Sucks, but hopefully those greenbacks will be passed on later to a person in need, and not a rich prick on a yacht somewhere in the South Pacific. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 08:44:45 IIRC, my clutch cover gasket cost me $14.00. I watched them cut it out on their machine. I dont know that thats an unfair price. IDK, cost of the machine & software & maintenance & service life & IDK how much it works in a week, generating income. But, unless its a low buck deal to own & operate, $14.00 seems plenty fair. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 08:46:04 [quote author=737E67656A6C6A0B0 link=1256381039/0#3 date=1256397699][quote author=77545C5E5D54545D4A380 link=1256381039/0#2 date=1256391569] I can charge $100 for a tasty cup of lemonade. If someone will pay that price should I reduce or increase it? Id build a mobile stand & stay where that guy can see it. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 09:42:41 Ok, so you are willing to pay $14 for a $17 gasket and are completely accepting of the situation as you are helpless to fix it. Got that. Don't like it, but I got it. No sense of outrage, used to being bent over by stealerships -- accepting. Meek, mild. Turn the other cheek. It's Ok, it's only money. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 10:01:53 What constitutes good "gasket paper" to you? Butcher paper? Postal wrapping paper? Poster board? Card stock? The question gets down to "how thick"? You don't want a glossy finish on a crush gasket. You do want it to be oil impermeable when crushed and compressed, but butcher paper and postal wrapping paper meet this requirement, so most papers would meet it as well. Automotive gasket materials as bought from auto parts stores are too thick for clutch side cover gaskets (you'd have to have a modded rod to recover your adjustment range). What is the right max thickness of the right material? Poster board? |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 10:05:36 No, no,,If I can get it on the cheap, thats great, Im just a little bit "business friendly" in that I want the guy I go to to be there when I need him. I also look at costs for him & what does it take for him to sell me that gasket. The costs he has in the equipment, maintenance, service life, production rate, all play a part in the final price to me. Now, IF he is inefficient & IF he isnt competitive, Then hes gonna get cut out of the loop. But, W/O access to any real numbers ( cost of equipment & materials & maintenance) but having seen the stuff work. I think $14.00 is not unreasonable. But maybe the equipment is cheaper than the "Gee whiz wouldya look at that!?" feeling I had when I saw it made me think it is. If the little "Printer" with the traveling stylus costs $200.00 & the software costs $50.00 & a roll of paper costs $20.00, then hes screwing the heck out of us..especially if it doesnt need repairs..OTOH,,that danged machine may have cost him a small fortune, & NOW, new machines may not cost much at all. I just need NUMBERS before I can have an idea about what price is fair. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 10:08:51 A "Gasket Clinic" would be good, too. If I had a Need for a gasket & a tool that would make it if I just dropped the material in , but I hadnt actually seen the gasket that was in it, so I dont know the thickness or the material & I had a room full of gasket material, how would I choose? I did not know I didnt want a glossy side on a crush gasket. How do I know what places get a crush & whats the option? A crush ( dont they all get crushed?) gasket or what>? |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 10:31:17 Justin, the software is free and the machines cost around $300-400 nowadays. You can buy a roll of postal paper at Walmart. You can buy a piece of poster paper for under a dollar for a large piece. Where did you see one of these things in use? |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 10:54:18 Gasket Clinic: The function of a gasket material is to crush and fill all non-conformities in a somewhat rough machined surface. Surface of the gasket should be matt, not glossy as the glossy on paper is achieved by impregnating the paper with wax and clay to fill in all surface irregularities (duh, that's why its glossy). A gasket should be no thicker than required as excess thickness increases the rate at which oils, etc can seep through the gasket's material. Contrary to common knowledge, standard gasket paper isn't completely oil proof, simply very very slow to allow oil to move through once it is compressed. Plain paper works, as does silicone saturated papers (silicone is immiscible with normal petroleum oils, if it is there first it is not replaced by normal oil). Plasticisers, rubbers and neoprenes can be used to higher temperature oil proof paper gasket materials and must be used in any thicker gasket material. Cheapest "oil proof" gasket is silicone oil impregnated plain paper. Applied dry to clean aluminum castings the silicone oil is squeezed out of the compressed paper wetting the castings, making a barrier film that normal oil cannot cross. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 11:26:37 When I did the cam chain. Been a couple of years, at least. I know we were living here & I didnt have a shop out back yet, so at least 2 years ago. The shop I use ( rarely) has a machine & they entered what I had, LS650 & what gasket I wanted & it just started running the paper thru a printer looking doohickey with a stylus. I thot the "Gee Whiz, aint that cool!?" factor was worth the $14.00. No order & wait, just punch it in & print it out. I cant remember if one side was sticky,, |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by bill67 on 10/24/09 at 11:49:28 Did you guys ever think about printing money,Then you could afford a real gasket. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 12:24:12 There is a term for that sort of printing, Bill -- gets you at least 20 years or more. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/09 at 12:43:50 Here is where your gasket got made. http://www.gasketsondemand.com/order.php3 |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 12:56:08 I dont think it was that big, I am kinda thinking the paper was a roll? Man, I need to go back & have a look at that thing. But some of that did ring a bell..Cripes, NOW equipment for a few hundred is out there? That would put every mechanic shop in town in business making their own gaskets..It would if I was owning one. But for $4,000,,, Ill buy a few gaskets, till it gets more reasonable. Still, for that kind of $$$, a guy could buy a machine & sell to a few local shops, save them $$$ & make some too.. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by BurnPgh on 10/24/09 at 15:58:55 i fail to see why, with the proper paper, one couldnt just simply trace a pattern and cut it out with an exacto blade. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 17:48:55 One could do X-Actoly that, IF one had the ability to not ski roo it the heck UP.. In fact, Ive used a ball peen hammer to cut a gasket when I was working on cast iron. Cutting the right thickness paper & not getting "Outside the lines" on some of the more intricate gaskets would be a pretty serious task. The clutch cover Gasket is no simple thing to make. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/09 at 01:33:10 Like I said, the low end of our response range could be a printable file that allowed you to layout and cut your own gasket correctly with scissors and exacto knife. I don't really like this answer because I have seen what screwing up cutting the gasket can do to an engine -- so I was looking for something better than the exacto knife to try to stop this from happening. I've checked out the used equipment and for several hundred dollars you can buy factory refurbished stuff that will do this (if you would take the time to master the software and write the program). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFGcqc-gfiw&feature=related but seeking somebody who does cottage work to do this for us requires set up costs (writing the program) and debugging the design. Then once they were cut, you have to oil them with silicone oil and distribute them. Proper gasket papers range in the .020-.030"" thick range which is butcher paper to light poster board type stuff. Getting the right paper isn't hard. Cheapest easily available thick silicone oil is "tire shine" from Walmart. This is doable, but only at a price. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 02:12:31 Ive been getting pure silicone oil from copier repair places. Thats about over, tho, because the copiers that use fuser oil are about all gone. Last time I bought 4 pints for $5.00 each. OUghta last me the rest of my life. I use it on dash boards & interiors & rubber trim & CV joint boots. Darn stuff goes a long way,& once something is treated, it takes even less. I also use it before I wax a car or a bike. By oiling the rubber trim & plastic stuff first, wax wont stick to it & make it look odd. If that tire stuff is 100% silicone oil, Im gonna have to have a look at it./ |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by BurnPgh on 10/25/09 at 02:38:37 Im young. Younger than most here but REALLY. Precision in cutting is just a matter of going slow and pressing hard enough. If you're in a hurry no doubt, you'll slip up. But if you were to take your time I see no reason the average person cant cut out a printed stencil of the side gaskets on the savage. I've done much more precise and complicated stencils than that on the savage. Got a half hour and the right material? Hell...I got nothing to do. Supply me with the material and i'll do it for half the suzuki price...or less |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/09 at 04:03:53 11x17 65# poster weight paper comes 250 sheets to the ream at $25 per ream, costs out to 10-15 cents a page. A bottle of silicone tire shine costs $10 A machine that can do the job costs $220 refurbished http://www.uscutterdirect.com/Refurbished-USCutter-12quot-Refine-Vinyl-Sign-Cutter-Plotter_p_66.html Now, what would you be signing up for? Fighting getting an older style machine hooked up correctly to a modern graphical software. Writing a program rife with polylines to match the curved surfaces of the gasket or carrying a gasket to a Kinkos to get it scanned on their big equipment. Tuning your program until it was right. What would you wind up with? Center a piece of paper, choose your file to cut, hit enter. Pick up the trash paper waste parts, throw them away. Put cut out gasket into a baggie along with some silicone oil, seal the baggie carefully after sucking out the air, putting it in a mailing envelope and mail it. If you charged $5 a gasket you could make money. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 09:09:52 & I know a very industrious young man Im gonna tell about this . Thanks! |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 09:42:56 Hey, O.F., are you technically capable of solving the computer/communications issues with these things? The guy I know is interested & can repair puters, but he doesnt grock programming at all. Can you help him get rolling? |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/09 at 09:58:27 Hell no, if I wanted to do it I would have. To make it pay he'll have to get up with other motorcycle groups and program other different bikes. Too much like work. Like a job, so to speak. Plus when I post the .jpeg file for the gasket in a day or so it'll derail all our real cheapskate members (who all own exacto knives). Sunk cost of $300/$5 per gasket = 60 gaskets to break even |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by serenity3743 on 10/26/09 at 09:07:12 Tractor Supply sells two types of gasket material in a roll. One is charcoal black, maybe kinda like felt; the other is gray, maybe a little more like cardboard. There is no reason, as BurnPugh said, that a person with the right gasket as a pattern couldn't trace and snip. I don't know how much the gasket material costs, maybe $5 a roll and it's maybe 12" wide and 8' long. (I just looked online and didn't find it, but I've seen it in the store. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/09 at 09:51:39 You can buy the stuff at any auto parts store too. Stock gasket is .020" thick, so watch the thickness of what you buy as if you go too thick you'll have reflection in your clutch lever / rod travel range. I am awaiting a return email from FileDen.com where I opened a free account to host the .jpeg files I scanned in this morning. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by kel30734 on 10/26/09 at 11:31:27 OF: Cool Beans on the Jpeg.... Email it to me and I'll Put it on BikePics and My space for All To Have. I have a 13 and a 18 yo thay are budding artists .... Hay kids Dads got a project for ya..... I was fixin to order my side gaskets for my Cam chain and tinsioner mod for my winter project. Since it is getting cold and the Vegtable garden and Lawn don't me to drink beer with them till the spring. Got have an excuse to sit in the garage and drink beer. Can probly get a couple of saturdays out of it 8-) |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/09 at 12:43:11 Milk it Baby,, Milk IT! |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by bill67 on 10/26/09 at 13:09:41 If your looking for a CEO for your project I want $750,000 salary,If we go bankrupt or need a bailout I want a $2,000,000 bonus. |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/09 at 15:56:34 Bill, to be the CEO you have to pass this test. ============== Go here and successfully download the full sized bitmap images ... http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0687hg/n/8_5x11_-_left_side_of_gasket_modified_jpg http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0687g9/n/8_5x11_-_right_side_of_gasket_modified_jpg Then get a copy of Irfanview and print the full sized graphical images out on your printer as per the attached Tech post instructions. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256595298/0#0 Successfully pass the side cover reality check with your taped together template, having successfully avoided Microsoft Picture and Fax viewer screwing things up on both ends and we will talk about that CEO position. Now, if anybody can host these images and make this easier, I'd be perfectly happy to email you the .jpeg images. This is a right pain in the ass to do right now. Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by verslagen1 on 10/26/09 at 21:25:58 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/7-Rolls-of-Cut-A-Gasket-Treated-paper-Gasket-Material_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518d93bb2eQQitemZ350267620142QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories |
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Title: Re: $17.00 side cover gasket Post by Oldfeller on 10/27/09 at 06:36:01 OK, I searched and searched and found 2 relatively easy to use sites and got the pictures hosted at each one. I put the easiest of the lot into the main thread so use that one first. Go read the Tech thread and give me feedback on your actual doing so I can fix any buggies to the process that may exist. I wish it was feasible to go with the cutting machine, but I lack the coins and the time to take on a new hobby of that depth and nature. ============= ============= X-acto knives at the ready!! March out troops ..... we make total war against them gasket rapists !! |
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