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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Float Charger /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256326871 Message started by rl153 on 10/23/09 at 12:41:11 |
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Title: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/23/09 at 12:41:11 I broke down finally and bought a float charger for my battery .The battery is a yuasa yb14l-b2, yumicron. It has battery caps .Do I have to loosen the battery caps when using the float charger all winter ? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/23/09 at 17:21:30 Since its only maintaining the charge on an already charged battery, I dont think so. Its no more of a charger than the alternator, IMO, tho someone may come along & make me feel stewpid, :-[ . You should go check the water once in a while. It would be easier to keep an eye on it if you pulled it out so you could run a light behind it & check the H2O level in each cell. The holes are so small in the top, I dont think theres a hydrometer that'll even go in it. Just make sure it starts off fully charged & full of H2O. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/23/09 at 17:21:58 Absolutely not ! Caps should never be loosened or removed using any kind of charger, or no matter what the state of charge the battery is. Where that myth came from, nobody knows. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by bill67 on 10/23/09 at 18:07:38 What happens if you remove them or loosen them. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/23/09 at 18:29:12 If your battery does not have a pressure release vent tube, you must remove the caps while charging. In any sulfuric acid/water battery, using a charger increases the battery's temperature and thus causes the electrolytic solution to expand, thus needing an escape route for the pressure. If your battery does not already have one, then the caps need to come off. I have a float charger and it says to take the caps off. Your alternator will not cause this need for pressure release to happen. Here is a link to one of many instruction sheets for float chargers, telling you to take the caps off: http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/42000-42999/42292.PDF |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/23/09 at 21:43:21 5E5550500A0B3C0 wrote:
Well, I guess nothing much, except while charging, acid will splatter all over the top of the battery, more water/electrolyte will dissapate into the atmosphere, wewakening the battery solution, and thats if it doesn't explode first from a stray spark getting near it. Thats why they do make special battery hydrocaps that are safer, and keeps the water returning to the battery. I really was surprised to see that the myth of removing caps got carried over to a charger MFG. Most all sites say to leave caps in place for the common sense reasons, which includes the safety of it all if nothing else. I myself have seen many batteries explode, many for no apparent reason, many spark related. Below, just one site that says it, among other things. In reality, there is no reason to ever remove them except to test or add water. Removing them to relieve pressure, is absurd at best. Every lead acid battery has vents,.....every one. Battery sales and service - Voltex Battery Inc.Charging Tips: Leave vent caps in place while charging. ... Otherwise a dangerous explosion can occur. Never leave a battery on a trickle charger longer than 48 ... Carefully remove old battery, disconnecting the ground cable first, ... www.voltex.com/battery_care2.htm - Cached - Similar - |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/23/09 at 21:49:17 Every lead acid battery has a vent.....EVERY one. The caps ARE the vents, or else it has a vent tube :o There is absolutely no good reason to remove caps except for testing or filling. The MFG saying to remove them, is creating a dangerous situation,.....believe it. 0D3E3824393E4C0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/23/09 at 22:14:00 & carelessly ( OR intentionally, gasses dont care from whence a spark comes) allowing sparks from a grinder to come too close to the vent tube, even with the engine off for hours & hours, will blow yo Bat TREE The crappity smack UP! PLease, dont axe me how I know.. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 09:10:19 3D3228332F293A38303E295B0 wrote:
[/quote] They are vented but not ALL sufficiently enough to allow the escape of pressure from exterior chargers. They are all vented for normal use in an automobile, because the automobile engine compartment and outside air temps will expand and contract the battery, thus requiring nominal venting. Charging with a charger is a whole different process, and can cause the electrolyte to heat up to the point of bubbling. As for the danger of fires or explosion from fumes vented to the atmosphere while charging, thats why you don't do it near sparks or in closed areas, and if you do, the easily avoidable resulting problems are of your own careless making. Battery casings have buckled and split open from exterior chargers that have had their caps left on while charging. Batteries vary as to the manufacturers' recommendations as the whether or not the caps should be removed. This has to do with the amount of venting provided in the battery. Since member RL153 asks should he remove his caps, he obviously does not know what his battery manufacturer advises. I doubt that anyone keeps his instructions for the battery he now has, so for safety reasons it must be assumed that you don't know. Leaving the caps on batteries that are not sufficiently vented for exterior charging can cause casing failure from expansion. Whether or not you remove the caps, the gases when heated from charging are going to expand and vent out into the atmosphere one way or the other, which is why you need to follow the, 'no sparks or open flames, well vented area', safety precautions anyway. Since most people do not know what kind of venting system their battery manufacturer has designed for his battery, and since many battery manufacturers tell you to remove their caps while using a battery charger, where is the wisdom in leaving the caps on? Here is a small sampling of links that either tell you to take the caps off, or that tell you to: "FOLLOW THE BATTERY MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT TO TAKE THE CAPS OFF": http://www.chargingchargers.com/manuals/lil-pro-manual.pdf http://www.pulsetech.net/PulseTechnology/BatterySafety_PPC.pdf http://www.marinco.com/files/support/products/manuals/729642.pdf http://www.dualpro.com/media/pdf/14%20Certified%20Reconditioned%20Eagle%20Performance%20Series.pdf http://www.gemplers.com/docs/manual/145745MANUAL.pdf http://www.ossa.com/documents/Batterycharging_001.pdf http://www.freestart.co.za/catalogue/pg1.pdf http://www.associatedequip.com/pdf/manuals/6065.pdf http://www.donrowe.com/user_guides/duracell/duracell_25_charger.pdf http://ecee.colorado.edu/~ecen4517/components/US3300_en.pdf http://www.scribd.com/doc/19360946/Section-08Aa-Battery-Ewj8Aa http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14273/css/14273_36.htm http://blog.batteryweb.com/blogroll/you-got-charging-questions-we-got-the-answers/2009-07-13 http://www.kuryakyn.com/documents/installation/4200-21HD-0705.pdf |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/24/09 at 12:16:07 When charging conventional batteries, loosen vent caps and ventilate charging area. A buildup of hydrogen and oxygen in the battery or in the charging area can create an explosion hazard. From yuasa website. Apparently ,they recommend neither taking them off altogether or leaving them tight . Makes sense to me. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by bill67 on 10/24/09 at 12:34:54 Thats good to know I've been doing it right all theses years |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 12:42:41 Yet, no one seems to want to talk about the low charge rate of a float charger. IS IT or IS IT NOT less than or equal to what an alternator does? IF it is, then shouldnt I stop & pull the caps when the regulator fires the alternator up? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 13:39:23 I could only find this about the difference between a charger and an alternator. Without supporting links, all you are going to get is unprovable opinions. (I copied this from another board): "An alternator does not "recharge" a battery. When the engine is cranked, the alternator provides a saturation charge, but it will only restore the battery to roughly where it was pre-crank. An alternator is not a battery charger." And: http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/function.html However, lacking a clear provable answer, the only safe course is to follow the instructions and warnings of a float charger's manufacturer: http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/42000-42999/42292.PDF My BeeBe motorcycle battery float charger does not have its instructions on the 'net for me to provide a link, but they state," Remove the filler caps to prevent gas build up inside the battery. Too much gas build up could cause the battery to burst". My Beebe's output is 12VDC @ 500mA. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/24/09 at 14:04:26 26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:
I'm glad you at least put some thought into a subject before you post. You are exactly right. 1st- There isn't a battery charger out there that puts out more than 40 amps, and most times you will never see more than 30 amp out of it. 2nd- There ain't an automotive alternator out there that puts out less than 60 amps. So don't be telling me that a portable battery charger is going to build up more pressure in a battery than what an alternator puts out. No I ain't even lookin for no websites to back that up, but if a person has even the slightest knowledge about automotive batteries and charging, that along w/ a wee bit of common sense should be enough. And as far as an alternator not fully charging a battery, from stone dead I mite add, believe it if you want to, but I'm tellin you that all automotive batteries get fully charged every day just by driving down the road, if not there would be millions of dead batteries all over the country. Please, quit the websites, and use a little of your God given common sense. Thats it, believe what you want to,....take all the caps off all your batteries that your heart desires,... I'm outta here ! |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 15:45:18 454A504B57514240484651230 wrote:
I'm glad you at least put some thought into a subject before you post. You are exactly right. 1st- There isn't a battery charger out there that puts out more than 40 amps, and most times you will never see more than 30 amp out of it. 2nd- There ain't an automotive alternator out there that puts out less than 60 amps. So don't be telling me that a portable battery charger is going to build up more pressure in a battery than what an alternator puts out. No I ain't even lookin for no websites to back that up, but if a person has even the slightest knowledge about automotive batteries and charging, that along w/ a wee bit of common sense should be enough. And as far as an alternator not fully charging a battery, from stone dead I mite add, believe it if you want to, but I'm tellin you that all automotive batteries get fully charged every day just by driving down the road, if not there would be millions of dead batteries all over the country. Please, quit the websites, and use a little of your God given common sense. Thats it, believe what you want to,....take all the caps off all your batteries that your heart desires,... I'm outta here ! [/quote] 1st. "There isn't a battery charger out there that puts out more than 40 Amps." WRONG. Battery chargers do put out more than 40 Amps. Here are three of many more, that charge at 50 amps, 65 amps, 60 Amps: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02871240000P?mv=rr http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200331048_200331048 http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200331048_200331048 2nd. " There ain't an alternator out there that puts out less than 60 amps". WRONG. There are a number of alternators 'out there' that put out less than 60 amps. 1973 Volkswagen: 25 Amps 1970 Toyota Corolla: 30 Amps 1980 MGB: 45 Amps 1975 Nissan: 50 Amps...this list is endless. Ignoring the links/ instructions of the recommendations of the engineers who designed these chargers and batteries, and instead using "your God given common sense", is why the uninformed get hurt. 'Common sense' tells you to pay attention to the safety warnings of the manufacturers of a piece of equipment. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 18:00:02 Could we PLEASE address the point of the thread? This is about using a FLOAT CHARGER. Once again, I ask, is the output of a float charger more or less than the alternator? IF its less, then whats the big deal? The answer is obvious enough. We dont need to debate what happens if we hook a totally drained battery to a million amp charger. We are talking about a batter, topped off with H2O, commected to a charger that SENSES the Voltage & shuts OFF, doesnt Boil the thing dry, shuts OFF, & maintains the charge. Thats all. My opinion? With no numbers to look at? The float charger cant put out enough current to create a hazardous situation unless someone TRies to confine the Hydrogen & create it intentionally. The ones I got at Harbor Freight specifically styated NOT to hook it up to a battery that was discharged, because it would ruin the Float Charger. It CANT produce that amount of current. Its just a tiny thing. No way can it even hang with our pukey alternators, so why get all freaked out about the caps? Its NOT gonna swell or pop the battery, I PROMISE,, Is it POssible to have a problem with a charger & battery? Yea, I guess so.. but it AINT Gonna happen with a flippin little float charger on a fully charged, topped off battery. Its not trying to RE charge a battery, its only maintaining it. crap,,enough already, If someone is so anal they simply MUST pull the caps, then by all means, pull the darned things OFF, but, whatever evaporation I will see, you will see more. Whatever corrosion you will see due to fumes in the area, I will see less. Enjoy your charger.. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by bill67 on 10/24/09 at 18:59:43 I never had a float charger and would never buy one because a small cheap charger will work and you know by the charger if your battery is good you don't know that with a float charger. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 19:07:11 The idea behind the float is to hook it up & walk away. An occasional check on the battery H2O & V, till you become either unable to trust it or trust it.. well,, you get it,, maybe |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 19:15:00 Justin, why do the manufacturers of the float chargers which I have provided links for, tell you to remove the caps? They just don't dream this stuff up. Perhaps it is because the float charger charges for longer periods of time than alternators, because an alternator does not once the battery is brought up to specs? And how can you be sure the charger will only be used to top up an already charged battery, and not one thats been sitting and lost its charge? Alternators with faulty regulators that keep throwing their full amp capacity into a battery have exploded those batteries. No one here with an electrical engineering degree has responded to the questions and comments in this thread with a detailed explanation. All the readers have to go on is someone's speculation, or, links to manufacturers of this equipment. In a science like this a person can't just assume something because it makes sense to his limited understanding of that science. Again, unless someone is fully versed in the theories involved, the wise choice is to listen to the engineers who designed the equipment. Whats really important here is that many uniformed people visit this site asking for advice. Sometimes the things they ask about have safety ramifications they may not be aware of, such as in this thread. To provide them with answers like "Trust me", or "Use your God given common sense", or "Believe me, I know for sure", without documenting you know for sure with fact links, is irresponsible. Somebody could get hurt believing another person's uninformed opinion. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 19:52:51 Maybe because they have a lawyer who says if they dont it will leave them "exposed"? & Like I said, IF,, NOTE IF, IF,, THEN, THEN,, follow a logical progression,IF it truly performs as Advertised then it shuts off when the battery is charged & turns on when needed, JUST LIKE AN alternator operating behind a V regulator. & has limited, as in VERY LOW current carrying capacity. Have you LOOKED at the wires on a float charger? Theyre wimpier than speaker wires. How are they gonna make a battery boil? Not gonna happen..At least, not on the Harbor Freight units, way too wimpy. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 20:09:03 You may well be right. But until I hear an electrical engineer explain it to me, I can't assume anything, and will follow manufacturer's instructions. Better to err on the side of safety, especially when it is SO easy to remove the caps. Also, its not a matter of boiling the battery, its a matter of pressure build up as a result of charging. The battery doesn't have to boil to build up pressure. But whats more important here is that readers have been told you never have to take the caps off a battery when charging with ANY charger. Thats dangerous advice. We are not taking about something as inane as what oil is best , we are talking about batteries bursting. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 20:15:55 Well, Im no EE, but the USAF did force feed me electronics for 9 months & I have a few hours more that an associates degree in electronics, that, coupled with some experience in repair of electro-mechanical equipment,, I feel pretty good about what i said. I Would watch one, before I just walked away, all trusting. but the amps that can go down the wires on mine? Very small wires, very few amps & no way would it charge the battery more than the alternator. Physical impossibility. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/24/09 at 21:30:18 Quoted by Gort ? Ensure all connections are tight. See that the vent holes are clear and open. DO NOT REMOVE BATTERY CARS DURING CHARGING. This prevents acid from spraying onto the top of the battery and keeps dirt out of the cells. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Talk about being played for a fool !! The above is just one of several of that loooooooong list of batt charging websites, that say to not remove caps while charging. Several more don't say one way or the other. A few more say to follow Batt MFGs instructions One of them is unreadable There is a couple that say to remove caps So, a bunch of really stupid websites that don't prove anything, except that the MFGs (some are not MFGs) can't even agree on cap removal. I guess Gort didn't think that anyone was really stupid enough to read them. Bad me ! BTW, I had forgot to mention,...I attended 2 battery seminars during my GM automotive training years ago, (general motors training center, San Leandro, Ca) and both sessions stressed saftey reasons to never remove caps while charging. This and plain ole common sense told me I have enough experience to post advice on this. And this is the only place that has ever even questioned what should be common sense. I'm not sure what that tells me, but I have a good idea. ::) |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/24/09 at 22:31:00 040B110A16100301090710620 wrote:
"THE ABOVE IS JUST ONE OF SEVERAL OF THAT LOOOOOOONG LIST OF BATT CHARGING WEBSITES, THAT SAY TO NOT REMOVE CAPS WHILE CHARGING." WRONG AGAIN! "SEVERAL MORE DON'T SAY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER." WRONG AGAIN! "A FEW MORE SAY TO FOLLOW bATT MFGS INSTRUCTIONS." WRONG AGAIN! "THERE ARE A COUPLE THAT SAY TO REMOVE THE CAPS." WRONG AGAIN! Links 1 through 5, 8,9 10 and 14 all tell you to follow the manufacturer's instructions as to whether or not to remove the caps. Links 6,7 and `13 tell you to remove the caps. Link 11 says nothing either way and was a mistake entry. Link 12 tells you to leave the caps on. Did you even bother to read the links? Try again. And if one is "UNREADABLE" because the print is too small for you, use the enlargement icon at the top of the link and enlarge it. Thats why they put it there. "THERE ISN'T A BATTERY CHARGER OUT THERE THAT PUTS OUT MORE THAN 40 AMPS." WRONG AGAIN! http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02871240000P?mv=rr http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200331048_. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200331048_... "THERE AIN'T AN ALTERNATOR OUT THERE THAT PUTS OUT LESS THAN 60 AMPS." WRONG AGAIN! 1973 Volkswagen: 25 Amps 1970 Toyota Corolla: 30 Amps 1980 MGB: 45 Amps 1975 Nissan: 50 Amps...the list is endless. You've lost your credibilty because you deliberately tried to misrepresent what my links said in order to win an argument, and because your statements about charger capacities and alternators are wrong. Calling 13 websites describing manufacturers safety precautions and instructions "REALLY STUPID", is desperation to win an argument. Saying that I didn't think anyone was really stupid enough to read the links I provided, is wrong. I didn't think anyone would have been stupid enough to mis-read them. After all these errors, do you really think anyone should take your advice seriously? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/09 at 22:55:43 & Im wrong? Why? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/25/09 at 06:15:57 My statements were correct, never thinking that anyone would have to dig way back into the 70's to prove the alternators wrong. And I guess Gort doesn't know what a portable bench charger is either, having to resort to the largest commercial chargers on the market to prove that wrong, as if we all have commercial chargers setting in our garages. (I do have one in my shop) At least now we know,...everytime Gort charges a battery, he first looks to see which brand charger he is using to know whether to take the caps off or not, only because batt MFGs can't agree whether to take the caps off or not. I'd really be curious to know if Gort thinks you can't set a battery on a concrete floor w/o it dying either. Again I say, taking caps off a battery is as much a myth as the concrete floor. The very fact that it can't even be agreed on should tell a person that the "myth" has even the batt MFGs confused. And the battery "Grus" are so confused on it, that they tell you to follow the MFGs instructions, who themselves don't know what to tell you. Really, ?? Yeah,....just a little common sense,....or is it the lack of it, tells it all ! |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Charon on 10/25/09 at 06:29:21 Nowhere was the question addressed - what does one do with batteries such as the much-touted Big Crank, on which the caps are not removable? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/09 at 06:38:30 Functionally, if the clear vent tube isn't crimped it suffices to carry off all gases produced during normal use. I never had an issue with it carrying off the charging gasses as well. Count me amongst the ignorant masses on this one (blissfully ignorant). |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by bill67 on 10/25/09 at 07:22:52 If the battery is in the motorcycle I leave the caps on and tight,I if its out I take off the caps,So my batteries get the best of both worlds. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/25/09 at 08:09:38 5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:
Justin if you are addressing me, as I said you may well be right. No one in this thread has been able to prove he is right. What has been proven is that there are pros and cons on this issue. It is my suggestion that either know what your battery and equipment manufacturers recommend and follow their advice, and if you don't know, then err on the side of caution and take the caps off. Here is an interesting link describing how overcharging due to faulty chargers can cause a battery to explode: http://www.ehow.com/about_5099009_causes-car-battery-overcharge.html Here are 2 links describing how a battery can swell, due to an alternator having a defective voltage regulator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_battery#Exploding_batteries http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090616152716AAmSTZ3 Here are 2 links suggesting that a battery can be overcharged and swell because its vents are insufficient to release the pressure: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090224040553AAu6VBD http://wapedia.mobi/en/Car_battery#4. The 'net is full of these stories. Clearly, charging a battery can cause it to swell or split open if the pressure cannot get out fast enough. Charging it too quickly by one of the commonly available home battery chargers could do this. An unregulated alternator could do this. You can't ride around with your battery caps off in your car just in case the voltage regulator fails, but you can remove the caps of a battery you are charging at home. Why? Because a charger can malfunction and overcharge without you knowing it until its too late, or because the floor model charger that so many people have in their garages is capable of charging the battery faster than its vents can handle the pressure, or because some of those vents are clogged. Remember, uniformed readers look to this site for advice, and it is irresponsible to tell them they don't have to take the caps off. Suppose their caps are clogged? Suppose their charger is able to charge faster than the battery can vent? If you are going to advise someone, tell them the whole story and provide links. Don't just say "I know" or "Use your God given common sense", and expect them to believe you. Those aren't answers. Thats the kind of bull$hit you hear in bars from guys who think they know everything. Common sense tells you research the facts, and to play it safe. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 08:55:51 WE had a welder ( a place I worked) & the battery wasnt tied down on the trailer. That trailed hopped & bounced & banged down those roads & the battery was always dead after a couple of months. I was the mechanic/bodyman & a driver/equipment operator. I was sick of seeing the $$ wasted, so I set out to fix it. Took a section of seat belt & a couple of bolts, washers & nuts & built a strap to hold that thing Down.. I got it a Weeee bit tight tho & a few weeks later, as the boss & I walked by it, the battery EX, Screamin PLO dadgum DED. Chunks went everywhere. He was between me & it & I could hear the case pieces bouncing off him. We were far enough away that it wasnt a lot of acid that got to him, but enough that when he washed those clothes it looked like hed been shot by a shotgun. It sounded like a shotgun, when it went off. Needless to say, when I put the new battery in, I set that strap up a Little Looser. One of the coolest things I ever got to see was when some guys had some infrared binocs we looked at the engine on that welder as it was running. You could see the pistons move & it seemed like I could see thru the exhaust stack. Seeing a different bandwidth is really strange. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/25/09 at 09:06:03 Let me ask you guys ,My battery tends to hold the charge at 12.4 volts ,should I not use the float charger on it ,and get a new battery ? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 09:07:34 Well, Im not sure about that, BUT, I do know this, you absolutely maybe should remove all or 1/2 or none of your caps. There, now Im safe legally.. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/25/09 at 09:22:03 That was a good one, Justin. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 09:44:16 [smiley=grin.gif] OHHHH You know I do try.. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Phelonius on 10/25/09 at 09:44:24 61687B6463683C3F34340D0 wrote:
I tried floating my charger but it just sank, then it wouldn't work. Phelonius |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/09 at 09:50:02 Bill got one & tried to charge his gas gauge float. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/25/09 at 10:03:43 56494F4855526353635B49450E3C0 wrote:
Well that one made me laugh hard. If you keep this up, Bill will have competition. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Gort on 10/25/09 at 10:06:33 7C444940434245595F2C0 wrote:
I tried floating my charger but it just sank, then it wouldn't work. Phelonius[/quote] You people need to stop reading Bill's posts. They are poisoning your minds. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Phelonius on 10/25/09 at 11:08:43 0C3F3925383F4D0 wrote:
I tried floating my charger but it just sank, then it wouldn't work. Phelonius[/quote] You people need to stop reading Bill's posts. They are poisoning your minds.[/quote] Tain't Bills fault, it's the oxycodone talking. Phelonius |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Charon on 10/27/09 at 06:58:19 I don't know that I can answer whatever the original question was, but I can provide a little information. You may take it for whatever you feel it is worth. My motorcycle is an '07 S40, which I bought new in August '06. I do not know the date code on the battery, but imagine it to be the first half of '06. The bike was already dealer-prepped when I bought it, so I cannot vouch for whatever prep the battery received. I had ridden the bike about fifty miles on Oct 16 and parked it in the garage. Yesterday, Oct 26, I made the following measurements. Battery voltage, 12.37, using a Fluke Model 11 Digital MultiMeter (DMM). There being (just) enough room for my EXTECH AC/DC Clamp Meter, I clamped it around the positive battery cable. Turning on the ignition switch showed 6.9 amps of current, powering the headlight, taillight, running lights, and ignition module. I turned off the switch, removed the clamp meter, reconnected the voltmeter, and turned the switch on again. Measuring the battery voltage with the switch ON showed 11.77 volts (which implies an internal battery resistance of 0.087 ohms). I removed the DMM and reconnected the clamp meter. When I started the engine, the clampmeter very briefly showed 83 amps. Briefly, both because of the sampling and display time of the meter, and because the engine started on about the third time through compression. On engine start (on full enrichener) the clampmeter showed a charge current of about 6 amps, which fairly quickly dropped off. As I pushed the enrichener in the engine rpm dropped and so did the charge current. When the engine was running steadily at idle the meter showed about 1.5 amps of charge, and revving the engine (maybe 2000 - with no tach, who knows?) didn't increase it to much over 2 amps. Leaving the engine running after the charge current stabilized, I removed the clampmeter and rechecked the battery voltage, which was 14.96 with the engine idling. Revving the engine slightly raised the voltage to 15.00. This whole procedure took less than ten minutes. I shut off the bike, put on suitable attire, and went for a ride. When I got home I parked the bike, and an hour or so later checked the battery voltage, which showed 12.80. I rechecked it this morning, after it sat overnight, and it was 12.66. The initial charge current of about 6 amps, plus the original current demanded by the lights and ignition, imply that the alternator is capable of sourcing at least 13 amps. The terminal voltage of 15 volts once the charge current stabilized is higher than any normal float charger, and would completely charge pretty much any lead-acid battery given some time. The usual drill for automotive charging systems is to attempt to maintain the battery at full charge. They do this by supplying a voltage-limited charge current (that's why it is called a "voltage regulator"). The idea is to replenish the battery as quickly as possible, against the possibility of short trips and frequent starts. Did that add to the confusion? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Charon on 10/28/09 at 09:01:10 I could have edited my last post (above), but chose to add another one, mostly to bring the thread to the fore. Yesterday, Oct 27, I took the S40 out for a little bit of a ride, filled the fuel tank, added Sta-Bil in preparation for winter storage, and brought it home. Today, Oct 28, I removed the battery and made a couple of checks. The electrolyte was about halfway between the marks, and pretty even in all cells. I filled it with distilled water. The terminal voltage, as removed from the motorcycle, was 12.65 volts. I connected my Universal Power Group 12BC2000T-1 Battery Charger & Maintainer, rated 12 volts 2 amps max, to the battery. The initial charge current was 1.8 amps (my clamp-on ammeter reads only to the nearest tenth). It dropped pretty quickly to 1.0 amps, at which time the battery was 14.36 volts. The current continued to drop, and at 0.6 amps, 14.47 volts, the charger switched to its maintenance mode. My ammeter showed zero, and the battery voltage dropped fairly quickly to 13.54 volts. This whole charge procedure took no more than five minutes, so I must assume the battery was pretty well charged by the motorcycle's charging system. I plan to leave the charger connected and check it again later today, or maybe tomorrow. Edited to add: The battery has now been on float charge for six hours. The charger is maintaining the voltage at 13.54. Using a different milliammeter, the battery is accepting 20 milliamps of charge current. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/28/09 at 18:25:46 I'm bummed ,I tried to measure the milliamps of my float charger ,and I burned out my meter because I did it wrong .Live and learn. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/09 at 18:27:04 It may have a fuse..lots of them do, bust it open ( Okay, use a tool other than a hammer & just OPEN it gently) & see. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/28/09 at 18:30:10 The display still had numbers on it ,but they were meaningless .Would that be a fuse? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/09 at 18:32:29 Nope, that would be CONfused.. Id pull the battery & reinstall & see what it does. BTW, How did you hook it up & what scale was it on when things went so badly? Also, you arent the only guy who can blow something up. I have a 50' extension cord I use for an extension speaker wire out in the garage, so I can listen online while I work out there. I hooked a wall socket into one of my computer speakers & hooked a male plug on a speaker out there. I leaned over, unplugged the circular saw & plugged my speaker in... It sounded like it sneezed real loud,, then, Nothin,, just plain blowed her UP, Daddeeeooo,, But, thats okay, I hooked it to a better speaker.. hope I dont screw up again. Harbor Freight has a decent little meter for about $3.00 that will go to ( IIRC) 10 Amps. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/28/09 at 18:35:10 I tried that ,didn't help.I sent it back to the company.Maybee they will warranty it .It's only 5 months old. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/09 at 18:42:46 I added stuff, above. What kinda meter was/is it? |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by rl153 on 10/28/09 at 18:56:44 Thanks for the info on harbor freight meter . It was a $20 walmart ETEK ,but I had to send it back to the manufacturer ,as the store warranty passed .I fried my stereo.I was spraying contact cleaner on the volume dial ,but forgot you can't do that with the power on .OOps. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/09 at 20:08:31 YIKES! Sorry about the stereo.. Big Bummer..Hopefully it wasnt an old tube type.. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Charon on 10/31/09 at 17:08:21 I happened to find the instruction sheet for the battery maintainer I am using. It said the charger/maintainer is to be used on sealed lead-acid batteries only, so I have already erred. That also makes the question of removing battery caps moot. The instruction sheet says the maintainer will bulk charge at 2000 milliamps (2 amps) until the terminal voltage reaches 14.4 volts. It will then taper off the charge, holding the voltage at 14.4 volts, until the charge current decreases to 500 milliamps. It will then maintain the battery voltage at 13.6 volts. If the battery voltage decreases to 13.0 volts, the maintainer will switch back to bulk charge mode. Its described behavior agrees reasonably well with the behavior I observed. I think the 13.6 volts for a flooded-cell battery is just a little high. Backing that up, today after the battery had been on float charge, I chose to tip it backwards, to see if any bubbles had been trapped under the plates. A good-sized bubble rose from each of the six cells, which tells me the float charger has been dissociating water from the electrolyte. Over time, this would run the battery dry. Note that a sealed battery would probably have some provision such as a catalyst for recombining this dissociated water, where a flooded-cell battery allows the water to be replenished. I think that, if you plan to use some sort of automatic battery maintainer on a flooded-cell battery, you will need to check the electrolyte every month or so. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by bill67 on 10/31/09 at 17:31:58 You only need to charge a battery every 3-4 months with a 2 amp charger and your battery will last a lot longer and you want have to put water in it. |
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Title: Re: Float Charger Post by Routy on 10/31/09 at 19:22:40 Charon, You're right, 13.6 is a little high for a normal float charger, w/ most being at 13.2 - 4. But in cooler weather 13.6 is not a problem, and it will use very little water also. In very cold weather, float voltage can even go into the 14v catagory, and be fine and also use little water. A hi $ temperature compensating charger will change the float voltage automatically according to the temperature. There are charts on some battery sites showing what temps will tolerate what float voltages. I do know that in hot temps of 95 deg+, 13.2 should be a max voltage to not loose water. Also, I have always used the same float chargers on SLA AGM as I use on regular lead acid, and have never had a problem, even tho the AGM have a little higher standing voltage. |
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