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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil Advise /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1255482871 Message started by flcruzr on 10/13/09 at 18:14:30 |
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Title: Oil Advise Post by flcruzr on 10/13/09 at 18:14:30 Hello Everyone! This will be my first time changing my oil, I have read the post in the tech section on the process. Now I need some advise on what Oil to purchase? I'm in Florida and the temp is still HOTT! Average high's this past month and currently is in the mid-90's so what oil would you guys recommend? Can I use car oil from my local auto parts store or should I stick to motorcycle dealers oil? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Skid Mark on 10/13/09 at 18:35:31 You have just opened a vortex to the oil debate. Do the search on oil. There are many opinions on this and you will have to draw your own conclusions. I use rotella 15-40. Good quality, right specs., and inexpensive. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/13/09 at 19:00:07 You have been a member since 06/08. Surely you must have read the endless past and recent arguments and mud-slinging about which oil to use. I suggest you get a gallon empty jug, and mix equal amounts of Mobil 1 V-Twin, Klotz, Amzoil, Suzuki's own brand, Rotella diesel oil, Red line oil, Castrol, Spectro, and Motul, all together. Then you will have a mix that makes all the site's members happy, (unless I forgot a few favorites). |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by flcruzr on 10/13/09 at 19:08:14 Gort: LOL, Can you believe this will be my first attempt in changing my oil. I did research older posts on OIL but did not quite find the answers to my question about running mostly in high heat temps. Sorry guys to spark up a sensitive subject! |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/13/09 at 19:10:19 42445D4E4219162F0 wrote:
What are you taking about right specs Rotella doesn't meet JASO,Motorcycle oil has to be JASO oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/13/09 at 19:31:14 656F6071767971030 wrote:
Didn't mean to offend. Opinions about which oil to use vary widely, and many members have technical specs to back up what they say. You won't get an opinion that is shared by the majority. This argument has turned into a circus. Here is the most recent fight over which oil is best: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1253906414/0 |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by flcruzr on 10/13/09 at 19:41:21 Gort, thanks for the link, I missed reading this thread. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by FishHunt on 10/14/09 at 00:29:32 The previous owner of my Savage used 15w-40 Rotella. I plan on using Vavoline 10w-40 4-Stroke Motocycle Oil. http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/motorcycle-atv-oil/13 I would like to get some feedback from other members who have ran or still run this oil. What are the pros and cons of using this oil in the Savage engine. P.S. If you are reading this and about to type a reply about how using pixie dust and brand X oil is the only way to properly lube a Savage please don't. I am just looking for feedback on the Vavoline oil. <><Fish |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/14/09 at 03:03:06 It should be good its a motorcycle oil with JASO rating. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by jabman on 10/14/09 at 05:59:48 looks good |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Texas-1-lunger on 10/14/09 at 06:15:57 4F4950434F141B220 wrote:
I have to agree I use it and it works well in Texas. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Routy on 10/14/09 at 06:16:37 If I was using Valvoline, how would I evaluate it ? Maybe by telling you that it is great because the engine didn't spin no bearings yet, or the trans is shifting normally, or the cam is still lopsided,........and the clutch ain't slippin ? But the problem is, the oil I'm using, and every other major name brand name oil is going to have the same evaluation. (just believe it, ok !!) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/14/09 at 06:23:52 If you used an oil and your motor went to pot in 100 miles,You can say it work good here in wisconsin no problems for 90 miles. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/14/09 at 10:25:31 Bill is once again throwing out his banana peels of misinformation, intentionally tripping up the innocent newbie readers. But that's what Bill does -- he knows he will provoke yet anther oil war which he will lose again, but he does love them so much he can't seem to help himself. ============= Car oil is car oil, it is built for current car engines which have catalytic converters and roller tappet cams. Why roller tappets? Today's catalytic converter equipped car engines cannot have the old style effective anti-galling additive packages referred to as ZDDP which kept cam lobes and old style flat rocker tappets from getting indigestion. So the modern pollution controlled engines have to have fancy anti friction roller tappets so they can survive without the additive package ZDDP. Remember, ZDDP and catalytic converters do not get along. Any modern car oil lacks the over 10 PPM of ZDDP that your Savage engine needs. You don't have ZDDP watch your rocker arm flat tappets gall and "dish out" over time. Watch your cam chain stretch and wear out prematurely. ============= Two places to find ZDDP in concentrations over 10 PPM -- motorcycle oils at over $10 a quart or diesel truck oils at circa $11 a gallon at Wal Mart. Do the math -- $10 a quart, or $10 a gallon ..... hmmm, let me see which one costs less. ========================= Now here comes the oil war (and another 2 dozen banana peels from Bill about JASO ratings on bottles) BTW, before Bill gets there with his banana peels JASO is a Japanese rating system that is similar to ASME ratings that we are all familiar with. The heart of the JASO tests are the wet clutch performance tests for motorcycles which many modern American car oils fail miserably because of energy star friction modifiers that are put in our car oils to help get better car gas mileage (while not harming our required catalytic converters). Energy Star burst on the bottle -- poison for your clutch (remember this) ============= What inexpensive gallon jug sized dino oil passes all the JASO clutch tests, HAS the ZDDP your Savage engine needs, does not have any clutch killing energy star additives and costs $11 a gallon at Walmart? Which one has passed every oil war on every list and has a history of sucessfully passed oil analysis going back 5 plus years at Bobistheoilguy.com? White jug Rotella Triple Protection diesel oil This is the MOST POPULAR best respected motorcycle oil in America based on gallons bought and used. If you don't think so, punch it into your browser along with the word motorcycle. Watch the year dates on your discussions though, two years ago all of the Rotella oils got updated and retested to JASO because of an old issue with ash levels (which was fixed pushing two years ago because bikers are very vocal customers). And it has a big brother in the blue jug for $19 a gallon at WalMart, the ever popular Rotella Synthetic with Extreme high temperature protection. This is the stuff we are monitoring on list threads as more list members begin to use it as it has a tracking history of improving our shifting, allowing more free engine revving and <still controversial> improving our gas mileage. (It also has two folks reporting increased oil usage, which is unfortunate but also is being reported) ============ So, where does this budding oil war go from here? BTW, there is nothing wrong or lacking with your Valvoline 20w50 motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/14/09 at 10:38:55 This is exactly how the mudslinging begins. One member insults another and then claims he didn't start the controversy. To date there is no majority opinion about the best oil for the Savage on this site, and the site is hosting no comparison tests on various oils. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/14/09 at 11:23:26 What page in the Suzuki Manuel does it say use oil with ZZZP in it. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by verslagen1 on 10/14/09 at 11:27:32 OF, you forgot to mention the tests Rotella did. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/14/09 at 13:20:54 Remember too that the ZDDP only comes into play when the oil film has broken down. It protects against metal-to-metal contact, and as long as the oil film is intact there is no metal-to-metal contact. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by voldigicam on 10/14/09 at 13:38:11 767D78782223140 wrote:
If you're going to be a troll, at least get your acronyms right. Otherwise you come off just looking like someone completely out to lunch. The manual isn't the key, the key is what the oil + additives is supposed to do. Which is determined by the engine design. The Suzuki manual gives only broad recommendations of Suzuki oil or an API SF or SG oil. The ZDDP aspect comes from the old-school design of the engine, part of its primitive charm. Need to get a new game, Bill. Or a better grasp of this old game. The Rotella Syn works great! Initially I had it at the top of the allowable oil level. It's now dead in the middle at 800 miles of hard riding. I'll probably run a 2500 mile interval, or whenever the oil starts to feel less effective in shifting. With the 15W40 Rotella I could tell a slight difference at 800 miles, and fresh Rotella clearly made a little difference in shifting. That stuff really cleaned out the engine, too. The first batch got pretty dirty, the second not nearly as much, and this synthetic is staying surprisingly clean. I like it. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/14/09 at 14:19:07 352C2F272A242A20222E430 wrote:
If you're going to be a troll, at least get your acronyms right. Otherwise you come off just looking like someone completely out to lunch. The manual isn't the key, the key is what the oil + additives is supposed to do. Which is determined by the engine design. The Suzuki manual gives only broad recommendations of Suzuki oil or an API SF or SG oil. The ZDDP aspect comes from the old-school design of the engine, part of its primitive charm. Need to get a new game, Bill. Or a better grasp of this old game. The Rotella Syn works great! Initially I had it at the top of the allowable oil level. It's now dead in the middle at 800 miles of hard riding. I'll probably run a 2500 mile interval, or whenever the oil starts to feel less effective in shifting. With the 15W40 Rotella I could tell a slight difference at 800 miles, and fresh Rotella clearly made a little difference in shifting. That stuff really cleaned out the engine, too. The first batch got pretty dirty, the second not nearly as much, and this synthetic is staying surprisingly clean. I like it. [/quote] Boy you really straighten me out ::) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by MMRanch on 10/14/09 at 19:39:08 Two Quarts of Rotella and one pint of STP oil slickum (never a dry start. 33,000 miles and just started my third cam chain, no ring groove and just reseated the valves. Rings and Bearnings look great. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/14/09 at 19:50:14 210A03100D0C620 wrote:
Charon is correct, ZDDP is an extreme pressure additive that puts an impervious surface layer on steel that will resist galling and abrasion when an oil film breaks down. Momentarily, anyway. Where does this oil film breakdown happen in a Savage? Cam lobes and tappets, pin/plate junctions in the cam chain, cam journals in the head, flank surfaces of the highly loaded gear teeth, skirt of the piston rubbing the cylinder wall -- in short all the locations that extreme wear and galling damage shows up in our engines. Will the ZDDP layer protect an engine in case of a lag in oil pressure at start up (zero oil pressure) or a momentary oil film loss during full speed running? Yep, a ZDDP film will protect a smooth steel surface for a minute or so until it is worn away. Generally you get oil pressure in less than 10 seconds after start up so this is a moot point if you have a ZDDP containing oil. Remember, the ZDDP surface layer gets refurbished by the oil and quickly gets back up to its normal microscopic thickness in time to withstand the next assault. Protracted high speed abuse will go thru the oil film and thru the ZDDP layer inside 2 minutes and start causing wear and damage (if you think you need extreme temperature protection, please consider a Syn oil with extreme protection levels). I go this route as I am a confirmed "wicker". Why is ZDDP so important that the high performance engine world has howled at its removal or dilution to less than 10 PPM levels? Because unless a motor was redesigned to use modern oils (with extreme pressure additives removed to keep from killing catalytic converters) it HAS to have ZDDP to live a full life. Most older designed engines were developed and tested using motor oils with over 10 PPM of ZDDP in them -- engines that had some "heavily loaded" design spots in them that were carried along by the ZDDP film provided by old additive rich oils so the designers never saw any test or wear issues with the design -- until EPA regs took the ZDDP out of the oil and the galling and rapid wear reports started at the hot spots. Old design engines are dying because of "bad oil". Our Savage engine have these hot spots in it -- we are an old design engine and we must have our ZDDP or we get galling and relatively rapid wear in these areas when our oil films break down due to heavy loads or high temperatures (or both). Remember, we have an air cooled engine with ZDDP hot spots in it and an oil pump that is "just enough" to do the job with the old type oils. Should our members be using modern "ordinary car oils" that have been neutered by the EPA in their Savages? No -- they should use either a motorcycle specific oil or one of the known good diesel truck oils that all have the necessary ZDDP additive packages combined with an oil weight and a high temperature rating sufficient for your area. Now, Florida temperatures do not require a 20w50 oil, a 10w40 carries a temp rating sufficient for Florida or Texas. However a 20w50 oil is good for that summer range, it just isn't user friendly for a colder climate in winter. Florida doesn't have cold winters, so that 20w50 is fine for Florida year round. I will submit that a 15w40 diesel oil like Rotella T meets use specs for our bikes anywhere in the USA at the lowest cost to the user. Meets it, giving up nothing to the much more expensive motorcycle oils costing over $10 a quart. Rotella T triple protection in the white jug at $11 a gallon at Walmart, someplace we all can find it easily and cheaply. Or if you want an extreme temperature synthetic oil, Rotella Syn in the blue jug for $19.00 a gallon. This oil is currently being "warred" as the best oil for our bikes based on list member usage and actual use reports. So far the ones using it seem to like it for concrete reasons that they are discovering and reporting. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by kk lewi on 10/14/09 at 23:25:56 I read most of the recent Oil posts. (Oil changed by dealer when I bought at 140miles) Changed my oil at 500 miles (it was black!) and added a magnet oil plug. I chose a Super-duty 15w-40 Diesel CJ-4 approved blend from Wal-mart at $12 for 5 quarts. I believe CJ-4 blend has all the ZDDP and goodies motorcycles love? I'm still breaking in my bike at 700 miles with it. I intend to do another oil change at 1000 miles. Maybe a half and half with Rotella blue tbh. It's cheap too. I have read between the lines elsewhere, and here, that Synthetic oil is BAD for break in oil.... first 1000?....3000? When to switch to synthetic,,,,if ever? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/14/09 at 23:43:36 Break in is over by 600 miles according to most sources. You could switch over to synthetic any time after 1000 and feel totally safe in doing so. No point in doing a mix of oils. I'd feel more comfortable running a "consistent" single oil so as to have the same packages working together as the manufacturer intended them to work. Example: you are using brand A and brand B to make your mix. They use different packages to achieve the same desired effect, but in each case the package must be at a certain PPM to be effective. Since you are running a 50-50 mix neither of the different packages is anywhere near an effective PPM, so in essence you get no protection at all because you mixed them and thinned both out way too far. Better to pick a product with known good packages and stick with it. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by kk lewi on 10/14/09 at 23:56:33 hmm, that is a darn good point OF, mixing oil, I didn't think of it that way as I assume most oils are a mix of each other anyway. ie I return my used motor oil for recycle, and the oil company filters it and sells it back to me at a lesser weight. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 02:39:37 514351434E5D525F541C0 wrote:
Sounds like if you use Rotella oil you need to tear down the engine every 15000 miles,that doesn't sound to hot to me,Theres been people on here with 50000 mile and engine never been apart.Of course they didn't know about Rotella in the green bottle. With ZZZP in it. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/15/09 at 06:17:10 On mixing oils. Many years ago - in the Sixties - a guy named Smokey Yunick used to write a column for one or other of the magazines of the day, perhaps POPULAR MECHANICS. He was asked what happens if one should mix oils. Paraphrased, his answer ran something like: "The US Army runs one of the biggest fleets of motor vehicles in the world. They buy a LOT of oil. They require that the oil meet their specifications, MILSPEC. One of the first requirements in the MILSPEC is that any oil must mix with any other oil in any proportions without ill effects. All oil makers know this. All oil makers want to sell to the Army, so they blend their oils to meet the MILSPEC. In other words, if you mix oils, nothing bad will happen. The obvious reason for this requirement is so the mechanic doesn't have to worry about what oil the last motor pool put into the machine." He went on to add that if you mix grades of oil, such as SAE 30 and SAE 40, you get something in between. But because of the way oil viscosity is measured, a half-and-half mix of SAE 20 and SAE 40 will not be equivalent to SAE 30. I do not know if the armed forces still use the MILSPEC. But I would bet they still have the same requirement under whatever the current name might be, even with the current move to all Diesel power. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/09 at 06:22:14 Bill, where you been boy? I keep forgetting you are a relative newbie to the list and really don't know the list problem history very well. Verslagen & company still recommend you take your side cover off and look at your cam chain and tensioner every 15,000 miles. Considering the damage that you can get if you don't catch it before it fails this is simply good sense. Remember, the Verslavy cam chain tensioner trick didn't even exist 2-3 years ago -- people replaced their cam chains back then because they had no other option. Ask Justin or the other old timers who have had multiple cam chains in their bikes. Heck, Justin is lucky he had saved his old cam chain as he now plans to put it back in eventually as it is only "half used up" when you are using all the Verslavy mod tricks. Also, most of our bikes were bought used -- and we don't know what the previous owners used for oils or what those oils had in them. In some cases those bikes had wear and damage because of previous neglect. =============== Speaking of wear and damage, some of us use our bikes harder than most. Having ridden the Dragon with MMRanch, he falls in that category as he uses his bike to the max all the time. Verslagen is another hard user. For folks like this, that is good cam chain durability. Verslagen tracks cam chain life on a listing he maintains. He has a few documented failures under 10,000 miles and a few over 30,000 miles. By educating people about oil we hope to decrease the number of infantile failures his list is seeing. Now, something that HAS improved since we started fighting each oil war out (and educating each new crop of newbies) -- we have had very few "slipper clutches" in the last year or so. Folks sticking car oils in their Savages were fouling their plates with the energy starburst additives and killing their clutches right frequently back then, but since oil war education has started that has dropped off quite a bit. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 06:31:57 I'm not worry about cam chains or any thing else,Its way cheaper in the long run to paid more for the best oil,Than use a cheap oil and have to tear your engine apart,I've had a lot a motorcycles in the 38 years I've been riding,and they all have held up by using the best high priced motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by dinsdale on 10/15/09 at 07:38:31 515A5F5F0504330 wrote:
Where do you get the idea that using Rotella, as you are inferring, causes people to have to tear their engines apart? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 08:04:39 Look up above at MMRanch statement |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 08:14:40 594B594B46555A575C140 wrote:
here,sounds like great oil good for 15000 miles |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/15/09 at 09:24:31 I seem to remember reading that the active ingredient in STP Oil Treatment is a Viscosity Index Improver (VII). Seems to me the article said STP Oil Treatment, used as directed for cars (one can of STP in the four or five quarts of oil typical for a car engine) would cause the engine oil to rise about two grades in viscosity. That is, an SAE 30 would become about equivalent to an SAE 50. If true, it seems that using a can of STP in two quarts of oil would raise the viscosity even further. The article pointed out that it would be less expensive to just buy the higher viscosity oil in the first place. If the active ingredient in STP is really a VII, and if the shearing of VII molecules in the transmission gears is the reason a 10W-40 oil loses viscosity, then it would seem to me the VII in STP would fare no better. Mind you, I am just speculating... |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by dinsdale on 10/15/09 at 09:34:38 43484D4D1716210 wrote:
Really? I don't see any REASON given for his tear down, just that nothing was wrong. I took the statement below to mean he tore it down while doing the cam chain just as a precaution and to take a look. Quote:
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 09:40:41 Why does he have to do the cam chain if the oil is so good,people have driven the s40 50000 miles and never had to do the cam chain,thats the ones that have said it on here,I'm sure theres a lot of S40 owners that have never heard of this forum,and have over 50000 miles on S40s with out problems. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/09 at 09:54:12 What about those whose tensioners have dropped springs in the gears at 18,000 miles? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by dinsdale on 10/15/09 at 10:55:57 666D68683233040 wrote:
So your theory is that all Cam Chain tensioner issues and Chain Stretch is due to the oil used, no other factors? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by verslagen1 on 10/15/09 at 11:37:48 3C37323268695E0 wrote:
Only one that I know of to get that mileage was serenity. Didn't he use car dino oil? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 12:32:50 4A47405D4A4F424B2E0 wrote:
So your theory is that all Cam Chain tensioner issues and Chain Stretch is due to the oil used, no other factors? [/quote] Yes use a NASO rated synthetic motorcycle oil, and it not a high rpm engine so you don't go to what would be a redline for this motor,You can tell the motor don't like high rpms. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by serenity3743 on 10/15/09 at 12:48:23 23302726393432303B64550 wrote:
Only one that I know of to get that mileage was serenity. Didn't he use car dino oil?[/quote] I used Suzuki dino motorcycle oil, 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer. Changed oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles. Never even looked at the cam chain and adjuster till I topped 50K. Don't know if it was blind luck, but I can't help thinking the frequency of oil changes contributed, as well as using the factory recommended oil. I'm experimenting now with synthetics, however. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/15/09 at 13:19:23 So there you have it. 50,000 miles on Suzuki Oil with 3,000 mile filter changes. This is the only long term test of an oil in the Savage that I've seen on this site. No one elses experiences even come close. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Boule’tard on 10/15/09 at 13:53:29 I don't see why picking an oil is such a big deal, once a few clarifications and near-universally agreeable assumptions are made: 1. The cost of oil per quart varies a lot, but put into the proper perspective (on a per-mile basis, or in comparison to the cost of other maintenance items, or the cost of digging into your engine and replacing expensive parts) oil is dirt cheap. So if an oil is objectively shown to reduce wear at all, and the oil costs another $5/quart, buy it. 2. You care about the engine and want it to last as long as possible. You're not into comparing the amortized engine value vs. savings on cheaper oil, expecting to unload it just before it turns to dust. You're not about to sell the bike (and perhaps don't care how it holds up for the new owner). In light of this, you can disregard statements like "I use brand X oil all the time and never had a problem" which are meaningless when you don't know how long the person keeps bikes, how they ride, climate, oil change interval, all that. 3. Synthetics are better than petroleum oils. They have a longer "shelf life" in the crankcase, stick to idle parts longer, maintain viscosity and film strength better. Pay the extra money for 100% synthetic. 4. The oil has to meet the manufacturer's specs. No "energy saving" clutch slipping agents, make sure it's API or JASO grade such-and-such.. follow the instructions in the owner's manual, duh. 5. You want an oil available in a viscosity appropriate to your riding climate and conditions. Hot weather and stop-and-go traffic is going to require a much thicker oil than a bike that does nothing but short trips in cold weather. That's plenty of ammo right there for your process of elimination. Further thoughts that may help make a final choice: You don't know the overall benefit of each additive package, so don't fret over it too much: "Well, this one has plenty of ZDDP, but lacks the US Recommended Daily Allowance of sulfur, calcium, detergent, anti-foam, and moly disulfide.. Crap! Which is best?" Additives are generally useless, unless for a specific purpose like trying to get seals to swell or flush out sludge. I may just be bitter about being punk'd by Slick 50, but I still think it's safe to assume that oil producers know exactly what's in every one of those additives, and if they were really that great, would just be added to premium oils (through reverse engineering or license agreement) in the quest to win the "best oil" competition. Take a lesson from Gort -- be skeptical and demanding of objective tests done by disinterested parties, and for God's sake ignore all tests done by the manufacturers themselves. Or do the experiments yourself. Since the cam chain seems to be the part most vulnerable to wear, a new one could be measured, run 15,000 miles on one oil, then measured again. Do the same with an identical chain and different oil, and see which one "stretched" the most. If someone on this board ran that experiment, they may not have conquered the "which is best" debate, but they'd have the most credible A/B oil comparison ever put forth. May I suggest Rotella and Klotz :P |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by jabman on 10/15/09 at 14:28:29 Im a fan of short changing oil with cheap oil (what ever doesn't slip the clutch) when you first get the bike to 'clean' the engine out then dump it out after a few 100 miles to your preferred choice |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/15/09 at 14:32:12 504651464D4A575A10141710230 wrote:
Only one that I know of to get that mileage was serenity. Didn't he use car dino oil?[/quote] I used Suzuki dino motorcycle oil, 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer. Changed oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles. Never even looked at the cam chain and adjuster till I topped 50K. Don't know if it was blind luck, but I can't help thinking the frequency of oil changes contributed, as well as using the factory recommended oil. I'm experimenting now with synthetics, however.[/quote] This is good to know that the S40 has a pretty good motor with some care it will go 50000 miles with out a bunch of overhauls. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/15/09 at 14:44:16 78756F767F6E7B687E1A0 wrote:
So very well said. These oil argument threads have become ridiculous. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by MMRanch on 10/16/09 at 10:02:25 Hi Serenity Is there any chance the chain on your bike had been changed befor you got it? The first time I looked at mine (18k) the adjuster was allready apart and the chain was flapping. I felt lucky it didn't jump time and tear-up a lot of stuff. I''m both amazed and glad for you that yours lasted so long. If we ever meet at the same ride sometime I'd be pleased to fall-in behind and let you lead so I can see how ya do it. I've had the piston out of mine twice now just checking for wear and scraping carbon it's such a easy machine to deal with I think of it as LEGO blocks for big boys. I hope your having a blessed day |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by serenity3743 on 10/16/09 at 10:28:51 MMR, I got the bike when it was a year old with 600 miles on it. So, nope, I'm pretty sure it was the original chain. I guess I am a somewhat conservative rider, but I do wind it out every now and then. I often drive 75 on the superslab, but I like it better 60 -65. Best fuel efficiency seems to 55 and under. I think regular maintenance and TLC contribute the most to longevity. ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/16/09 at 19:02:32 See, one is a tinkerer and a wicker, who takes his engine apart periodically just to see what's cooking. The other is a gentler rider that believes in changing his oil religiously. Completely different worlds -- quit getting all tied up trying to equate the two or pass judgment from one world to another. All that sort of stuff does is confuse the young list members who are trying to make sense of this discussion. And hey, if you don't like reading these oil discussions, then just stop reading them. Go buy yourself some good old miscellaneous car oil and put it in your Savage and learn that way. But you won't, will you? You'll quietly read the labels and analysis of your favorite motorcycle oil brand and you will quietly make sure you get enough of the right additives in that oil. Because now you do know better ... :) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/16/09 at 19:08:44 Quote from site member Serenity3743: "I used SUZUKI dino MOTORCYCLE OIL, 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer. Changed oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles. Never even looked at the cam chain and adjuster till I topped 50 THOUSAND MILES. Don't know if it was blind luck, but I can't help thinking the frequency of oil changes contributed, as well as using the factory recommended oil. I'm experimenting now with synthetics, however." |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/16/09 at 19:13:02 5C7F7775767F7F7661130 wrote:
OF, I see you said motorcycle oil I'm proud of you. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by MMRanch on 10/16/09 at 22:03:28 yeeeeeehaaaaaa and let it rip! |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/17/09 at 02:09:17 Yeah, that was for all you nervous nellies who won't ever admit you can get the same general additive packages in a white gallon jug for the same money you are paying per quart for that "feel good" motorcycle oil. But it is more important that the chilluns don't use modern 10w40 energy star car oil and murder their clutches and valve trains .... .... and if it takes them spending $15-$20 extra per oil change to feel better about it, well then we are in the Obama spending era are we not? Hey, let's all be progressive together !! Use that motorcycle oil !! ============= While you are over there, step around the big floor display of the big white gallon jugs to get to the rack with the $10-$12 quart bottles. Hey, what do you see over there in a quart bottle so the crotch rocket crowd can recognize it (all freshly repackaged). http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fz1Q1EwWL._SL500_AA280_.jpg Duh, it is motorcycle oil now. Ain't that amazing. You just pay more for it in quart bottles. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/17/09 at 07:56:23 There are no tests showing the long term effects of using Rotella Diesel Engine oil in a Suzuki Savage. There is, however, one for Suzuki Motorcycle oil. Your choice is to gamble, or go with a known winner. Being cheap is not always the wisest choice: Quote from site member Serenity3743: "I used SUZUKI dino MOTORCYCLE OIL, 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer. Changed oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles. Never even looked at the cam chain and adjuster till I topped 50 THOUSAND MILES.. Don't know if it was blind luck, but I can't help thinking the frequency of oil changes contributed, as well as using the factory recommended oil. I'm experimenting now with synthetics, however." |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Boule’tard on 10/17/09 at 08:44:38 795A5250535A5A5344360 wrote:
Yeah I saw that the other day and bought a quart to top up a DRZ. The label doesn't say anything about motorcycles though, and the quart didn't cost $10. If they changed the label, we still wouldn't know if they changed the oil or not. But hey, it meets the specs, so I bought it and <gasp> MIXED it with another oil. Furthermore, my engine didn't blow up. 5 miles and counting, folks. Take notes, kids! CONCLUSION: Rotella works as a MIXABLE FILLER in a MOTARD -- WHOA! :D I win. The oil debate is hereby settled. At least until the "Which is best?" guys start specifying for what. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by verslagen1 on 10/17/09 at 10:18:54 from the all new rotella t6 http://www-static.shell.com/static/rotella-en/images/products/t6/t6specs_and_approvals.gif |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/17/09 at 11:19:20 You get what you pay for.Thats pretty high priced for OF. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 00:50:37 I still buy mine in the big blue gallon jugs cheap at Walmart, but it does end the motorcycle oil vs Rotella debate as Rotella is now JASO labled and is officially a motorcycle oil. It just amuses me that they just HAD to put it in a quart bottle and re-label it and charge more for it jest to get Bill to believe it. Bill, Shell/Rotella loves you enough to do whatever it took to get you to come into the fold. ;) (But I still bet he buys Klotz as it costs $7.00 more a quart, has "mystery stuff" in it and he has to custom order it through the internet as nobody sells it locally. Bill, buy his oil at Walmart? Never!) (here is the link to the full write up on the new look for Rotella Syn - they finally hired a marketing expert to toute their oil to its fullest capacity - expect large price increases shortly) http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/t6_detail.html As you read the words, realize that in advance of the words being written our list members had pegged this oil for causing our Savages to shift easier (4) rev freer (3) and give increased gas mileage (1). So as you read the words, realize that it might just be for real. All for $19 a gallon at Walmart ($4.75 a quart) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 04:03:56 And for those who won't believe anything except tracked mileage in a motorcycle engine .... .... here are the folks who are actively tracking Rotella in a bike engine for over 210,000 miles in the same engine at an extended 4,500 to 5,000 mile drain interval (geeze, that's longer than I'd run a synthetic !!) note they have oil wars too, and share your opinion about "endlessly repeated nonsense threads". To them, the Rotella question has been a long settled thing, only brought up by some newbie dredging up misinformation out on the web somewhere. http://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=122651 |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by voldigicam on 10/18/09 at 06:00:40 With respect to: "210,000 miles on my 04 FJR. 90% or so of those miles were using the Rotella conventional (non-syn) 15W-40. I started using the synthetic 5W-40 Rotella early on it's life for the purpose of extending the oil change interval, but Jestal set me straight on my flawed logic on that post haste. So it was back to the conventional 15W-40. Why pay more for the synthetic when the FJR will not take advantage of the benefits of synthetic oil?" I interpret this to mean that the synthetic as a whole will break down at the same rate? The additives and so on. I figured I'd move to a standard interval with the synthetic, rather than changing every 1000 miles as I would with conventional. Off the point - will the additive package in the Rotella syn hurt modern cars? Catalytic converter, I suppose is the concern. I haven't decided what oil to use in my aveo, and was wondering about whether the Rotella syn would be good in my Ranger 4 cylinder. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 06:11:29 Mobile one is best for cars and Klotz with Hi Performance Techniplate is best for motorcycles,Klotz has had synthetic and only synthetic since 1969. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 06:57:31 Voldi, his point with the Rotella syn was that he was jacking his oil change interval up from 5,000 miles to something a lot higher and his mates chided him for excessive build up of minerals in his oil analysis (air borne dust and dirt). Our bikes don't have good enough air filtration and we lack the bypass oil filtration to really utilize the full mileage potential of Rotella Synthetic (which could be as high as 15,000-20,000 miles on a motorcycle). So he went back to plain old dino Rotella as he was getting 5,000 miles per change on white jug dino Rotella T and it was a lot cheaper for him to change out. So, the guy with all the 210,000 motorcycle miles finally concludes that he can buy the cheapest diesel oil (CJ-4 rating) that he can find and still keep on racking up the miles .... hey, he has the miles to have the opinion and I don't dispute his feelings. Diesel oil is good stuff. Why do I use Rotella Syn? My Savage is an air cooled engine that can get into extreme overheating scenarios and get way way hot -- so I like the extreme overheat resistance of the Syn oils. Plus it "warms up" instantly in the winter (no warm up lag at all) and I find I like that. Plus I'm a wicker, and I do like the revvability of the engine when using the stuff. It makes as much difference in performance as unstopping the air intake system did, which says a lot for the oil actually making a positive change in your riding. (and yes, I expect folks to call me on this statement if they don't find a similar experience after the first two (2) crankcases of the new Rotella Syn T6 oil -- as the first one will clean all the crap out of your engine and scare you to death because it got all nasty in such a hurry -- all the detergents and soot dispersants will flat give your engine an enema during that first oil change) Plus I am interested in the wear characteristics of this syn oil vs a known very good dino version of the same oil that was good for 210,000 miles. You got comparative data on rings, bore and other motor parts referred to here ... (you want to let your rings & bore wall break in before going to the stuff -- or they never will apparently) http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/products/t6_detail.html ============ I wouldn't put diesel oil in any catalytic converter equipped car that is relatively new or that is EVER going to get any form of emissions control testing. ZDDP will kill any new 2nd generation catalytic converter and all modern cars have them as standard equipment. Conversely, I have a 20 year old car that I do put the stuff in as my catalytic converter has been shot for over a decade and my 1990 vehicle is not subject to EPA exhaust pipe tests (grandfathered). ============ And yes Bill, we know it hurts. At least I'm not twisting the knife or doing any of the mean stuff Verslagen or Justin do to you when you lost an oil war. Actually, I feel sorta bad setting you up like that .... (fish in a barrel and all) But it is good to see you "never say die" no matter how bad it gets. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Starlifter on 10/18/09 at 07:46:29 I use a Sprctro Golden 4 semi-synthetic SAE 10W40 motorcycle engine lubricant that I change every 1500 miles. Question is; should I change the oil just before winter storage (six months of winter here) or just before the first ride of the spring? Or does it matter eaither way. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 08:03:33 Change it before storage -- why give the crankcase acids 6 months to chew on stuff just sitting there in storage? Let it sit in clean oil instead. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/18/09 at 08:15:48 That the Shell Rotella now bears a JASO certification does not mean Shell sells it as a motorcycle oil. Note that it says JASO DH-2, not JASO MA. I am betting that is a Diesel certification. MA is the motorcycle specification, and there is also an MB. Suzuki calls for JASO MA. It has been said (but I don't remember where) that Shell has performed the JASO MA tests on their Rotella, and the oil met the requirements. But it is also said that Shell chose not to pay JASO for the required testing and certification. So the oil does not bear JASO MA on its label, just as many private-label oils say something like "Meets the requirements of API Sx" but do not bear the API seal because of the expense of the certification. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 08:23:02 The longest I let oil sit in a motorcycle was 20 years,the bike was driven 5 miles a year the last 10 years of that 20,I sold the bike with 28000 miles on it and the last I heard the new owner had put another 10000 miles on it and it was still running good. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 08:38:44 Charon is right in saying it is a diesel spec, here is some data on the new JASO spec referred to on the bottle. http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/press/2002062413465601149.html the oil war continues ..... third down and one yard to go (go Bill go,, go Bill go --- Yeah Bill !!) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 08:47:13 And for those who didn't bother to click on the link given earlier in this endless oil war ..... Daniel, First, let me assure you - there has not been any significant change in the Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40 - although you will begin seeing it as Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40 in the near future. It still is (and will be) a diesel engine oil (as signified by the API C-series specification listings), and still does (and will) meet the requirements of JASO MA. It also still (and will) carry the API S-series recommendations for gasoline engines. However, I do want to address one thing you mentioned. There really are no API specifications for 4-cycle motorcycle engine oils. Thank you for your interest in Shell Lubricants! Regards, Edward A. Calcote Staff Chemist Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by verslagen1 on 10/18/09 at 08:58:38 charon, look again... "JASO DH-2, MA" I don't know about you, but I think it means it meets 2 JASO spec's. http://www-static.shell.com/static/rotella-en/images/products/t6/t6specs_and_approvals.gif |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/18/09 at 09:07:50 "So, the guy with all the 210,000 motorcycle miles (Yamaha FJR) finally concludes that he can buy the cheapest diesel oil (CJ-4 rating) that he can find and still keep on racking up the miles .... hey, he has the miles to have the opinion and I don't dispute his feelings." This comparison is invalid. You cannot accurately compare oil tests done in other differently designed engines with the Suzuki engine, anymore than you can compare tests done between an old Ford design with a newer Honda. For example, using the same oil and interval changes, the total accumulated mileage on a Honda car engine will be dramatically different than what you will get on an differently designed Ford engine. The Yamaha FJR 4 cylinder engine is nothing like the Suzuki Savage 1 cylinder engine. Quote from site member Serenity3743: "I used SUZUKI dino MOTORCYCLE OIL, 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer. Changed oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles. Never even looked at the cam chain and adjuster till I topped 50 THOUSAND MILES.. Don't know if it was blind luck, but I can't help thinking the frequency of oil changes contributed, as well as using the factory recommended oil. I'm experimenting now with synthetics, however Its your bike and your decision. Do you want to be cheap and use a Diesel Oil that has not been long term tested in your Savage, or do you want to go with a known winner, a Motorcycle Oil recommended by the engineers who designed and built your bike? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Boule’tard on 10/18/09 at 09:53:29 4B6860626168686176040 wrote:
LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_8WWWiHZNc Man I wish Shell made a xW-50 Rotella. Hopefully I can get rid of the whole gallon before I'm back to burning-hell Texas heat. Otherwise it's going in my wife's Camry.. hope it won't foul the catalytic converter. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/18/09 at 09:57:51 I stand corrected. I overlooked the "MA." Mea culpa. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 10:01:40 Now Gort, don't squirm on the knife like that. Follow Charon's example, when he's hit he says "Touche" and bleeds quietly. I know its all confusing. A Yammie FJR is a different animal, 140 horsepower engine vs our 30 hp engine, etc etc. But you demanded motorcycle miles, so we gave you motorcycle miles. Lots and lots and lots of miles. You want Suzuki? Let's see ..... how about this guy? (just click on it) http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/n2wheelies/first%20summit%2006/?action=view¤t=f63f04c6.flv He has some words to say about how he abuses his engine for 65,000 miles combined with some 500 odd documented passes down the drag strip and then he has the gall to take his engine apart and measure things ... shocking what people will do to a motorcycle engine, isn't it? http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3081&page=1#Post3081 |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 10:08:38 Thats a Shell forum ::) |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 10:19:38 Yeah, and it was a Shell chemist earlier too. And a Shell bottle label. But the drag bike owner isn't Shell nor was the drag strip he liked to run it on. Facts is facts, whether you like them or not is a different story. I always take facts and deal with them. Fact is, after all of that he still has hone marks on his cylinders and hobbing marks on his gears. That's darn little wear on a 65,000 mile engine (never mind how he liked to amuse himself at the drag strip). Wiggle wiggle wiggle ..... You would think worms going on a hook have nothing on these guys, would you? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Charon on 10/18/09 at 10:48:14 I vote we let Bill alone. His mind is made up - Klotz is the only acceptable oil for him. Nothing we say is going to change his mind. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 10:53:26 That only leaves Gort .... What you say Gort? .... is this enough for this installation of the endless oil war? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Boule’tard on 10/18/09 at 11:19:04 Don't mess with Gort, he'll zap you with his laser. And it's from 50s.. not one of today's OSHA-approved sissy lasers. But seriously, the only chink in that argument is that miles traveled becomes a poorer and poorer index of use, the higher the number is. 50,000 hot-rodded short-trip miles in cold weather would be much worse than 50,000 highway miles taken in large chunks. But the difference would be negligible if the miles traveled was only 50.. an essentially new engine regardless of the other factors. So for purposes of oil joustmanship I shall stick to the "Best.. for WHAT?" dodge, good humour, and not even mention what oil I think is "best." In other news, I don't tend to paint targets on my butt cheeks then go mucking around a shooting range. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 11:34:32 Yeah, but Gort was from "The Day The Earth Stood Still" and he was the epitome of the rational alien robot. No, Gort only fired when fired upon unjustly, the rest of the time he just stood there and let the bullets bounce off. When faced with honesty, he said "You may live, and perhaps grow and advance" or some such acknowledgment, then he got in his space ship and left. Question is: .... is the honestly presented enough to get the Gort to speak? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 11:50:24 Synthetic oil is better than dino oil,I've used Mobil 1 since it come out in all kind of equipment,Including a New Holland front in loader with diesel motor,Some people say they put in synthetic oil and it shifts better,gets better mileage. It didn't start doing that yesterday its been doing it for the last 40-50 years.So when someone say my bike shifts better with synthetic it is really funny to me,Because if they had tried it years ago they would have known.So if you want to save a pennies today and spend dollars tomorrow thats up to you.use oil made for motorcycles and you will save money in the the long run.I will use Klotz Hi-Performance TechniPlate MX4 oil its cheap insurance. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/18/09 at 12:05:34 Oldfeller, you keep referring to yourself as "WE", when indeed you represent only yourself and your personal opinion. You do not speak for this board. It is you who starts theses oil arguments, just like you did in this thread. You begin with personal insulting sarcasm, like, "Bill is once again throwing out his Banana peels of misinformation, intentionally tripping up the innocent newbie readers". It is not Bill who misleads the newbies, it is you trying to defend you choice of oils by misleading readers with false statements like, "Now that 'WE' have all agreed that Rotella is the best oil for the Savage...". Or you continually accuse Bill67 of losing the argument, when indeed he never has. Or you say that ," Gort is squirming on the knife.", when indeed it is you who continually squirms, trying to defend unsupported arguments you should have never brought up. You have lost the argument that Rotella is the best choice for the Savage because you never proved it. Your 'evidence' consists of inaccurate comparisons to other motorcycle engines, links to personal opinions of other unknown individuals on other sites, and utterly false statements like," This is the most popular and respected motorcycle oil in America based on gallons bought and used". There are NO surveys to show that among motorcycle owners, Rottella is used most, and NO surveys showing what the gallons of Rotella purchased, are being used in. Using supporting 'evidence' like this is what you do, because you are squirming to support your un-provable contentions. The only reason you choose Rotella is because it is cheaper than other oils, which is the same reason you put a hard rubber car tire instead of the latest in motorcycle tire safety technology on your bike, and is why you make homemade air filters instead of buying tested designs. You don't like to spend money. Now be a good man, and put on your Star Wars costume, and stop stirring up the $hit every time someone asks an oil question. Answer the question to the best of your ability, don't demand that "WE" are right and everyone else wrong, and don't insult other posters. Just do like everyone else does. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 12:12:49 Oldfellow cheap :-? :o |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 12:19:23 I think I just got the laser .... zzzzzzzzzz!!! ============== None of it is valid to Gort. But then, he is an alien robot with no sense of humor. You should all follow Gort's somewhat grumpy example however, because he has the big laser. signed, "a smoking hole in the ground" |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 12:24:58 Now, cheap is relative -- at least I use the $4.75 a quart; full synthetic version of Rotella rather than the dino stuff at $2.75 a quart. But yeah, I'm relatively cheap. Guilty as charged, Capt'n ! |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Serowbot on 10/18/09 at 12:26:11 I gave up on oil,... too controversial... switched to yogurt.... :-? |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/18/09 at 12:29:19 Once again you mislead the readers. I never said "none" of your arguments were valid. And as for a sense of humor, it is not funny to continually insult someone who disagrees with you, as you do constantly with Bill. That is a technique used by debaters who are desperate to win their argument. |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 12:43:55 Auugh! zzzzzzzzZZZZZZ <smoke & sizzle smells coming from still deeper hole in the ground> signed "misleading Bill abuser" |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 13:25:10 Oldfeller I still like you, your my favorite oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 13:34:29 I know, Bill. Gort just hasn't figured out these irrational flesh and blood critters yet. Because of his slot-eyed robotic outlook he simply prefers all his critters "extra crispy". It's just the way he's built. Me, I like Jessica Rabbit's outlook better .... (Bonnnngggg!) She's just drawn that way !! |
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Title: Re: Oil Advise Post by Gort on 10/18/09 at 13:51:22 http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/123jpg.jpg |
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