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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Best Oil for Savage /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1253906414 Message started by easywriter on 09/25/09 at 12:20:13 |
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Title: Best Oil for Savage Post by easywriter on 09/25/09 at 12:20:13 I was about to get a couple of quarts of expensive synthetic car oil from Autozone for my 03 Savage, but then I read how there's special oil just made for motorcycles. What do you use? Why? Where do you get it from? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Serowbot on 09/25/09 at 12:25:16 Knock yourself out,.... just don't use oils that advertise for increased gas mileage or energy saving.... PS,.. no better way to start a war on this site, than to talk about oil... ;D |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 12:26:21 Klotz from Dennis Kirk |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/25/09 at 12:42:54 castrol power 1 racing 10-40 m/cycle oil |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/09 at 12:49:56 hee hee hee !! You can count some newbie punching the oil war button at least once every other week, don't cha know it. Easywriter, punch "ZDDP" into the list's search function and read a bit to get some background information before you go running around in the bowels of the refinery carrying a lit match. Once you know enough to ask a decent question, then by golly you just go ahead and slap the snot out of that silly looking big red button with the skull and crossbones on it .... |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by easywriter on 09/25/09 at 12:51:26 I just ran across an interesting website that also has some recommendations: http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Consumables.html I didn't understand the warnings about energy conserving till this quote: "Avoid oils that say 'energy conserving' in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time." |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 12:54:13 You can use corn oil, sewing machine oil, 3 in 1, diesel,castor, or use motorcycle oil its up to you. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/09 at 12:55:52 He's learning .... Pop test question, For 15 points on your final grade, why is Rotella Syn 5w40 the first oil listed on their recommendation listing? PS Bill is already feeling a bit stressed, he has cranked up the nonsense attacks very early already .... |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by babyhog on 09/25/09 at 13:00:27 Easywriter - in other words, take your pick. You won't get a concensus on oil around here. But you will get tons of good and bad reasons for this, that, and the other. But from a fairly newbie perspective, such as me, it is fun to watch them duke it out every time someone brings up the "O" word. heehee Questions on any other topic -- you won't find better answers than here, but oil is a slick subject... ~ |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 13:16:58 Right Baby Hog but some is slicker than others |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by easywriter on 09/25/09 at 13:22:23 71525A585B52525B4C3E0 wrote:
Sheesh! Didn't mean to start the fire. However, I got an answer to your question. Rotella Syn 5w40 is listed first because it costs the least. In other words, most oils will work so don't knock yourself out trying to find the right answer! (Someday I will be a jedi!) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 13:26:08 You get what you pay for,The best is never the cheapest. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Routy on 09/25/09 at 13:36:00 Sure about that ? I believe that has been proven wrong many times. But I did buy the most expensive oil for the Bike, so it would be nice if you were right :-[ |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by kk lewi on 09/25/09 at 14:21:42 7377656F61647F627364160 wrote:
:o That is quite the read. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by FreeSpirit on 09/25/09 at 14:30:09 Most of the oil info is scattered about the forum. Searches will bring up quite a bit. With some good points.Which ones not to use and why=Mostly clutch slippage.And some just opinions. But...I see easywriter is pretty darn smart here already.I like that ;D He is teaching us a few things 8-) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Charon on 09/25/09 at 14:32:24 Just to stir the snakes... I cannot see any reason to use a racing oil in a street machine. The racing machine likely has its oil changed for every race, so it will not need much in the way of dispersant additives, or additives to make it cling to engine parts when shut down. It probably does not need much in the way of additives to control corrosion or neutralize combustion byproducts. Cold starting isn't likely an issue, either, so the oil doesn't have to address that. It might be wonderful for sustained high speed and high power, although even in racing the engine doesn't put out maximum power for very long at a time (you have to slow for curves, as a rule). But it isn't likely to be optimized for the street. For lack of a better term, "street" oil is designed to survive cold starts. It is designed to cling to surfaces after shutdown, so they remain lubricated on start-up. It contains additives designed to neutralize acids produced by combustion by-products. It contains dispersants, designed to keep very small particulates from settling out. And it is designed to last for thousands of miles or many months, not just for one race. It is your machine, and your money. You won't go far wrong as long as you stay away from "Energy Conserving" choices and change the oil according to the maker's recommendations. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/09 at 14:50:08 Only +7 points on that answer. Yes, of the group of oils rated that are rated BEST the Rotella Syn is the least expensive. At least you managed to find the listing of best oils. But you left out why the group of oils was chosen in the first place. What makes them better than all the other oils for use in motorcycles? During the test preview I specifically asked the class to punch "ZDDP" into their list search engines so you would be prepared to answer this question correctly. Those too lazy to do so could have at least Googled ZDDP on their always active texting telephones and gotten enough information to pick up at least 5 more points. Oh, +2 points for figuring out about the energy star additives causing clutch slippage. That gets you up to 9 points out of 15. So far you sit at a grade of 60 which is not passing. For recovering some of your missing 40 points, 1) explain what is ZDDP and why it is necessary in the Savage engine and 2) list the two characteristics of the approved list of oils got them a place in the primary ranking of Best Oils. For further grade recovery, 3 additional points will be awarded for being able to explain in some detail why there are two lists of Best Oils in the first place and what ENGINE characteristic is the primary cause of failure that the top list avoids much better than the second list. +1 point for being able to state clearly why this difference is important to your Savage's engine. Note: http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Consumables.html does not contain all the information needed to completely answer these questions. Consult other sources as needed. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 15:37:23 Theres nothing in my s40 manual that says use diesel oil maybe those Japs don't know about that, Someone should clue Suzuki in about that. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/25/09 at 15:40:05 What you will get here are a lot of amateur personal opinions based on no valid, controlled testing in motorcycle engines. If you want to be sure you are buying the right oil for your bike, buy one that specifically states it is made for motorcycles, on the bottle. Better to go by what the chemical engineers who designed the oil, recommend. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/25/09 at 15:41:07 68434A5944452B0 wrote:
I never saw that oil that says street oil,Where do you get that street oil at,Do they have oil for gravel roads too. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Routy on 09/25/09 at 15:58:53 And just what did Free Spirit teach us ? It couldn't have been the one about special oil for motorcycles now could it ? :-[ Would that be about like Castrol contaminating engines, or 10-40 causing spun bearings. Maybe you're right, just maybe I'm learning something, from him and you both ::) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by FreeSpirit on 09/25/09 at 16:40:06 Common sense is sometimes pretty underrated. ;) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/25/09 at 18:09:05 Castrol motor oil was named after Fidel Castro, and is produced in communist Cuba. The cases that are shipped to America are deliberately made with substandard chemistry, designed to cause engines to seize and throw their con rods out the side of the crankcase. This dirty little secret is well known among the informed elite. http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/fidel-castro-wink1.jpg |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by boofer on 09/25/09 at 20:09:00 I have friends and kin who are so educated they are nearly parylyzed when it comes to making a decision. I also have friends and kin who are so against anything to do with educating themselves that they cost themselves pain and money at every turn. It's a balance. I feel lucky to have grown up with 30w and 50w. We didn't talk about molecules back then; we just used "thick" oil in old motors and "thin" oil in newer motors. I read up a little on oil, ask everyone what they use, watch their performance, and decide. The fact is, engines are built with closer tolerances and better metal. The oil has had to keep up, because they run at higher temps now. In my opinion the most important thing is to use oil that doesn't make your clutch slip, and change it often. Boofer |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by FreeSpirit on 09/25/09 at 20:32:00 I totally agree Boofer. :) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/09 at 20:48:50 The only unique requirements you absolutely need to hit are to avoid the clutch slippage causing energy star additives, get over 10 PPM of ZDDP to keep from tearing up your flat tappet cam lobe junctions (antique valve actuation technology that is still used in the 1980's designed Savage motor) and get you a synthetic oil so if your air cooled motor gets overheated accidentally your oil and your Savage doesn't self destruct. This mix of stuff is generally found in expensive motorcycle oils (over $10 a quart) or in diesel oils (much less expensive as big diesel engines use 5-10 gallons of oil to make an oil change). Diesels have very heavy duty requirements as they can go 80,000 to 100,000 miles between oil changes and live with much heavier bearing loads and temperatures than are seen anywhere in a car (or most bikes for that matter). That's why bike guys like diesel oils, they can exceed the requirements of our bike engines at a relatively lower cost. =============== BTW, I am a fan of the first oil on the list of BEST OILS that you discovered independently on your very own. The cost per oil change for that oil is the lowest of any and the protection provided is arguably as good as anything out there. You can pay a lot more, but do you get anything for paying the extra money? ================== There is a reason that this stuff has become #1 best oil in motorcycledom and has survived every oil war on every list (and at BOBISTHEOILGUY and their endless professional level oil wars) at the top of everybody's list of best oils. And yes, it has been subjected to JSO tests repeatedly and passed, so the Jap motorcycle mgfs do "approve" of the use of certain diesel oils in motorcycle engines. Some honest Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha dealers even recognize that car oils have moved away from being good motorcycle oils due to the issues with car catalytic converter contamination and will actually recommend and sell diesel oils on their showroom floors. Mine does, right next to the $14.95 a quart motorcycle oils. And guess which one he sells? The one that protects best against EXTREME temperatures, of course. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Rotella.JPG |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/09 at 22:21:29 You get what you pay for,The best is never the cheapest. Faulty logic. IF its true that "You get what you pay for",, then no one would be filing lawsuits for fraud & mis representation. There would be no consumer groups. Your thinking suggests a higher price simply MUST translate to higher quality. You rarely get what you pay for, you Will pay for what you get. IF you stumble across a product produced by a reputable person/company, there is no reason why all of the competitors cant be of lower quality & higher price. You simply STATE that the best can never be the cheapest & pretend that your decree has made it so. The problem with many isnt so much what they dont know, its what the "know" that just aint so. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Educatedredneck on 09/26/09 at 00:00:40 Use Shell Rotella T - either dino juice or synthetic and get riding. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by BurnPgh on 09/26/09 at 00:20:20 +1 for the redneck. But thats just my opinion. PS - I LOVE oil wars. You guys are great. Its almost like a sitcom. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/26/09 at 02:33:36 +1 i love oil wars as well tis great as for 'racing oil', well its not the same stuff that racers use on a track of course. i live near a racing circuit but i dont think ill be asking them what they use too complex the 1st time i used castrol oil was in my first bike. i switched from dino and found better performance lower revs on the same roads in the same gear and overall smother running naturally when i got this bike i was (recently changed) dino out suzuki filter and heaver weight castrol oil in smoother running from 1st turn of the key |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/26/09 at 12:00:50 7E6167607D7A4B7B4B73616D26140 wrote:
LOL!! Our Savages/S40s kinda go against this credo ... they are a darn good bargain!!! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by photojoe on 09/26/09 at 15:13:50 I'm back to Castrol Actevo X-tra 4T 10w-40 for the winter. It's the first oil I put in my bike after I bought it but couldn't find it anywhere local after that. Bought a couple of 4 Liter jugs for a good price online a couple of weeks ago. 1 1/2 years later, I've changed brands several times with everything from cheap 100% Suzi dino to Mobile-1 20w-50 V-twin synth, and am back to where I started and what I like most, the Castrol. Keeps the leaks low and the shifting smooth. Bike leaked like a sieve with the Mobil-1, but, and a big butt, it is a 22 year old bike with over 20K on it, so leaking seals and everything else were probably there before the Mobile-1 went in. I was warned. Most important thing to me is to change the oil and filter on a regular basis. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/26/09 at 16:32:04 Well using that oil will make Castro happy,He's been down on his luck the last couple years. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Serowbot on 09/26/09 at 18:50:28 Crisco's good for chicken,... but I use canola.... It's healthier.... ;) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by FreeSpirit on 09/26/09 at 19:08:56 Ahh...but there's some oils better than canola ;D Trust me,I'm going to try my best to stay out of all oil wars in the future ;) Reminds me of the commercial years ago....the blonde headed woman pulling at her hair....saying "Stop the Insanity" :o |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/09 at 20:52:51 7B4E5959524F4A784A5D4A4C4E2B0 wrote:
LOL!! Our Savages/S40s kinda go against this credo ... they are a darn good bargain!!! 8-)[/quote] Perry, I was arguing against that thought, that was a Bill quote, I dont say that. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Midnightrider on 09/27/09 at 08:54:30 Here is the best oil article I've ever read and it talks about motorcycle oils vs car oils http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/27/09 at 16:24:01 OK, we'll accept this as an unbiased third party article and see what it says. (note, yellow highlight is mine) ======== "Three synthetics stand out from the rest: Mobil Delvac 1, Mobil-1 SUV and Shell Rotella T Synthetic. These are C certified industrial oils meant to be purchased in 55 gallon drums and used by companies which run a lot of diesel engines. The Commercial oils, as discussed above, have more expensive additive packages which are meant to prolong engine life and oil life, as opposed to being cheap to buy at Pep Boys and helping the car companies meet their CAFE requirements. These oils meet all the automobile requirements through SJ, and also have extra additives to help pick up gunk in the engine, to keep the oil from becoming acidic, and to maintain the oil's viscosity over a long time. In fact, the manufacturers talk about their oil's viscosity resistance to shear forces - exactly what a motorcycle needs. Shell Rotella-T Synthetic is available at Wal-Mart for $13 / gallon, so I consider this the motor oil of choice. Delvac-1 is very hard to get in the west - there are only two places in all of California where you can buy it. Mobil-1 SUV is readily available everywhere for about $4.50 / quart. When used with the correct filters, these oils are certified for 50,000 mile oil change intervals, and are frequently used for 100,000 to 150,000 miles in diesel long-haul trucks. Now, before you get all excited about the possibilities, you must also keep in mind that the diesel engines don't run their oil through their transmission, and the large diesels all have two oil filters, one a normal paper filter, and the other a 1 or 2 micron filter that catches pretty much everything." |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/27/09 at 16:46:48 Being my S40 only has one oil filter is a good reason to stick with Klotz.Walmart doesn't sell it.I order it. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/27/09 at 16:47:54 old article OF RotSyn is $19 and I wouldn't use Mobil1 SUV in a m/c, I did and my clutch slipped. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Frostnasty on 09/28/09 at 04:31:45 I use Rotella, the dinosaur variety...in my fawteen hunnert. Here's an interesting read. This is a quote, not my words, sorry I don't know who to attribute this to. Motorcycle usage Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The properties of heavy duty engine oils tend to map to the same requirements of motorcycle oils, particularly those whose engine and transmission share the same oil. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). The chemical additives found in heavy duty engine oils work well with motorcycles. In addition, the lack of "friction modifiers" in truck oils such as Rotella means they do not interfere with proper wet clutch operations. Motorcycle specific oils tend to cost between $8 and $10 per quart. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 costs about $19 per gallon (or about $4.75/quart). The price economy of Shell Rotella T allows a motorcycle owner to change oil more frequently, thus matching the "extended change interval" value of motorcycle specific synthetics. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/09 at 07:18:20 The Rotella T I bought at about $9.00/gallon is now ( last I looked, couple of months ago) at ~~$11.00 or about $2.75 a quart. The stash is down to about 6 gallons & Im hearing some rumblings of a drop in oil p[rice, maybe thatll come thru & I can get a bunch of oil before the trillions & trillions handed to the bankers drives us to Wiemar style inflation,. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 07:46:27 0A3E233F38222D3F38354C0 wrote:
Why would you want to change oil more frequently when you can get a premium oil and not have too. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by yumi on 09/28/09 at 07:56:47 Royal Purple (she's purple and she likes her oil to match); Advance Discount Auto Parts |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 08:00:29 Royal Purple is a premium oil and doe work best in purple bikes ;) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/09 at 09:02:18 777C79792322150 wrote:
Extended use oil requires an extended use filter which we don't have. Extended use means we'll build up debree to point of damage. Particles greater than 10 microns are larger than the oil film. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 09:36:25 With premium oil you get a better seal and by far less wear so you don't get those large particles your talking about. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 12:19:16 Yep, Verslagen -- I know that it was an old article, but it was quoted by one of the newbies (he found it all on his own) so I rolled with what was presented to me. And yeah, Rotella Syn costs $19 a gallon at Walmart now. It and all other oils have gone up in price equally due to the devaluation of the dollar. At least this crew of newbies is learning on their own and digging up their own stuff and posting it. You, however, are still trying to argue with Bill. That my friend is a waste of time since he is just gonna throw another nonsense wrench at you about an hour from now. ================================= Trash particles in our oil >= 10 microns Ok, let's say they get past the normal standard filter (I think some do and so do you) == so what happens? Let's break answer into two parts: 1) soft particles (aluminum, plastic cam chain guide and cork clutch wear products) that get chewed up by the gears and ball bearing rollers with no appreciable damage to bearing races, etc. Only bearing surface that can be harmed by these is the head cam journal bearings and they run a clearance measured in thousands of an inch. These soft particles happen all the time, get chewed up into smaller pieces and get recirculated and chewed up yet again. They might get smeared over a race or a ball, but they do no real damage. The tiny sub-micron results of this endless grinding up exit the engine when you change the oil. 2) hard particles (gear teeth, cam chain, other ferrous sources). These little bits are bad news since they can gouge ball bearing balls and scar up the races and cause actual damage going through a gear interface. Even ground up, they will cause damage each trip through the works. These are the bits I worry about. So, if you worry about them ferrous bits, put a super magnet on your oil filter and trap them all before they go through the works again. If you want all the bits (hard and soft) gone, mount up your bypass filter and take them all out by golly. =========== PS I am guilty of baiting a newbie into a tire wear out contest, his brand new $130 tire vs my 2 plus year old Chung Fooie rear tire. 'Ol Freddie's singing to him .... he just don't know it yet <grin> TrulyEvilOldfeller |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/09 at 12:35:40 4B6860626168686176040 wrote:
It's called bill bating ;D |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 12:39:46 I have no doubt in my mine that I can go over 50000 miles without doing anything to the motor using Klotz racing synthetic oil. And also not have to take the carb apart,preventive maintenance has been working for me for many years,I don't see any reason for it to stop in the 21 century. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 12:43:00 Oldfeller why don't you use K&N filter oil in you engine it will filter out all of those terrible particles. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 12:54:18 Bill, that is a chicken bet. You lose already. Serenity gave me his old motor with nearly 60,000 miles on it run on old style car oils that had over 10 ppm of ZDDP (all oils back then had the right stuff in them in the proper PPM levels -- all oils had ZDDP alias zinc phosporus additive packages in them back then). It is sitting here beside my laptop as we type. So I already have one that could beat your modern Klotz already sitting there, just waiting for you. Bill, how much of what flat tappet wear prevention goodie does your Klotz have in it at $11.95 a quart (plus 8 bucks in shipping charges)? (or $30 per oil change, whichever way you want to say it) You love the stuff, so give us its specs or be silent -- or won't Klotz tell you what they have in the oil? Oh, its a secret??!! (hee hee hee) And K&N doesn't make an oil filter (but STP does) but why would I need a sub-10 micron filter when I already stop all my large ferrous particles before they even get to filter and I stop ALL my ferrous bits no matter how small before they exit the filter? Are you attempting to start a filter war because you can't win an oil war? Ok, fire away .... |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 13:12:51 I was talking about K&N air filter oil you should use. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 13:19:14 Huh -- I don't have a K&N filter? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 13:21:04 You can get the K&N oil without getting the filter. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by serenity3743 on 09/28/09 at 13:37:36 01222A282B22222B3C4E0 wrote:
FACTUAL CORRECTION: Oldfeller, my engine had something over 51,000 miles on it when I tore it down for rebuild. I had used Suzuki dino oil throughout the life of the engine, 20W50 in the summer and 10W40 in the winter..........serenity3743 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 13:49:16 Ah, correction appreciated. So it isn't a chicken bet for all oils, just dino Suzuki oils between 10w40 and 20w50 at just a little more than the 50,000 miles Bill asked for. Serenity, the re-bore was first oversize, right? Or was it second over? Measuring the piston and the bore got me confused a bit, I can't tell if it was first over (.5mm) over or maybe it was more as the worn parts don't really jive together any more. =================== And Bill, your point about K&N filter oil is? Can you state your point? or is this just another pointless "confusion wrench" tossed into the motor oil discussion to avoid stating what long term anti-galling additive packages are in Klotz racing oil? If you want to change the subject, I understand completely. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Charon on 09/28/09 at 14:53:34 Oldfeller, the "hard bits" that I think are of concern are the particles of silicon dioxide - also known as "sand" - that make their way into the engine by way of the intake system. The air filter doesn't stop them all, and some make their way past the rings into the oil. Too, hard bits of carbon are produced in normal combustion and some of those also make their way into the oil. Neither sand nor soot will be stopped by a magnet, and both can be hard enough to do damage. Those particles are the reason I don't think a magnet will make much overall difference, even though it can't hurt. The oil filter is supposed to trap particles big enough to cause damage, and the oil dispersant package is supposed to keep the rest from settling out where they may do things such as blocking oil passages. It is my belief that the real reason for oil changes is to remove those particles. Synthetic oils may retain their viscosity longer than non-synthetics, but I think the real limit on oil life is particulate suspension. By the way, some years ago a synthetic aircraft engine oil came out. I think it was Mobil 1, but I am not sure. It was found inadequate in airplanes using hydraulically controlled propellers. Seems it was unable to keep lead (from 100 Low Lead avgas) in suspension. The lead would centrifuge out in rotating parts of the propeller governors. The oil manufacturer paid for quite a few engine rebuilds. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 15:31:35 That is a good point, Charon, and leads you back to wanting a bypass filter rig to remove every sub-micron particulate, or making you want to do very frequent oil changes to remove the particulates once they are present suspended in the oil. If you go with rapid/frequent oil changes as your control method, you don't really need a long lasting synthetic oil. You just need a high temperature rated dino oil. Dino Rotella T at eleven dollars a gallon has both the additive packages for cam lobe flat tappet issues and as high a temperature threshold as any normal dino oil can offer. It also has the detergent/dispersant and anti-foam packages that support long mileage diesel engines, so it will keep your small particulates in solution until you dump them out in the drain pan. If you follow Charon's point -- rapid oil changes are the only method to remove mineral wastes from combustion products and fine air dust inhalation unless you use a bypass oil filtration rig. Using a sub-10 micron oil filter element would help control the mineral issue, but these filters get loaded up much more quickly than the 10 micron standard oil filter element paper would do. And they cost a good bit more. Point, when an oil filter hits saturation and begins to bypass because of pressure build up, then the larger particulates circulate a time or two before getting caught. This is not a good thing. ===================== Based on rapid oil change to control mineral particulate build up, how frequently should you dump your oil? In an American car it is what, 3,000 miles? In Clymer/Suzuki book "extreme use" calls for an oil change every 30 days with the oil filter to be swapped out at 4,000 miles. The air filter is to be cleaned (reverse blow out) every 2,000 miles. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 15:46:19 Oil change for cars is 7000 miles they just run with the sand in them. Motorcycles should be changed every 30 days ::) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 16:04:58 Diesel oil and car oil aren't made for transmissions,As far as I know only motorcycle oil is. If you have a Moto Guzzi you can use car oil in it. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/09 at 16:39:19 Dino Rotella T at seven dollars a gallon has both the additive packages for cam lobe flat tappet issues and as high a temperature threshold as any normal dino oil can offer. It also has the detergent/dispersant and anti-foam packages that support long mileage diesel engines, so it will keep your small particulates in solution until you dump them out in the drain pan. If you follow Charon's point -- rapid oil changes are the only method to remove mineral wastes from combustion products and fine air dust inhalation unless you use a bypass oil filtration rig. OF, where you finding that $7.00 price tag? Ill get a boat load( row boat)? If a guy drained his oil into a clean bucket & let it just sit, would the sand & crap just settle out? How long should it sit b4 it went back in the engine? Maybe a Salad Spinner with some coffee filters in it? LOL.. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 17:13:40 Justin, I just read it again in some of the out-of-date stuff one of the newbies just posted and it stuck in my mind. I think Triple Protection Rotella T (dino) sells for $9-$11 a gallon at Sam's/Walmart now days depending if on sale or not. ============== OK, for best general use buy Triple Protection Rotella T (dino in the white jug) and change your oil very frequently and your oil filter every 4,000 miles. If you decide to go long service interval with a synthetic, you are going to have to do something to prevent very fine air-born fine particulates from getting past your air filter system and you are going to have to do something about the hard ferrous (steel) particles that your engine generates naturally to get them out of the oil on the same circulation pass that they occur on. (both of which I did a long time ago, but I keep forgetting you new guys haven't kept up with all the mods we all developed and did in years past) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1183640744 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1197231468 ============= Or you can put in place a sub-micron bypass oil filtration system. (which Verslagen and I each built a different competing system but we each ran aground at the low flow & low pressure oil pump that inhabits our Savage -- both projects still pending that brainstorm that allows them to go forward) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1232661088/11#11 note: this contains references to several of our very best factually based past oil wars ============== --- or you can say "Screw it, I don't understand all this stuff" like Free Spirit has done on occasion in the past and just carry it to your dealership to have your oil changed. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by voldigicam on 09/28/09 at 18:16:48 I suspect my bike was run with normal motorcycle oil for the 10,000 miles before I got it. I popped in dino Rotella - shifting wasn't as good, but the oil dirtied up rapidly. Changed after 800 miles because it looked dirty and the shifting just gave a faint sensation of not shifting as well. Shifting back to it's previous level. This wasn't a dramatic thing, but was pretty clear. 1000 miles on that oil and I changed to synthetic Rotella. Dramatic improvement in shifting. Have 500 miles on the synthetic and have noticed no change in shifting - if anything, the shifting is improving, which I can't account for. Given the superior performance in my bike of the syn Rotella, I'll keep using it. Regardless of the occasional flak about it. The dust in the oil thing bothers me. My teeth are ground flat from living in dust. So I need to come up with a change interval that gets the dust out suitably. I'm not in a really dusty environment. The air filter doesn't pick up much. Perhaps 1500 miles? 2000 miles? I don't mind the cost of the Rotella synthetic. It shift so much better and the shifting isn't changing over time. So I suspect it's holding up very well, as one would expect. Any idea on suitable syn Rotella change intervals? The syn Rotella has been nice enough running that I think I'll put it in my car & truck. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 19:36:52 I have fine dust removal built into my oil impregnated air filter system. I remove all ferrous particles first pass with a really strong supermagnet on the oil filter. ==================== I am NOT NORMAL for the general list member to pattern themselves after. For what it's worth, I run a one year oil filter and oil change interval on Rotella Syn and feel that it isn't excessive as I put less than 5,000 miles on the bike in that year. This fall it comes down for a side case removal, a Lancer Cam and a head retorque and seal replacement. ============= Note: after that, I will be even more "not normal" as I will be spinning some RPMs and torque outputs and hp that are even more out of the list norm. All of my wear items will be exaggerated. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/09 at 19:53:40 How about changing the oil, dumping into a clean bucket & running the oil thru a filter? I know you have the "How To" on getting hold of a filter base , oil pump & a pickup. Filter the oil up & in a coule thousand miles, dump the oil in the engine into a clean bucket, drop the filtered oil back in & run it. Its not "old & wo' out", but what about the acidity level from hydrocarbons & sitting around? Doesnt it get more acidic just sitting once its been run? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 19:58:50 Talk to Verslagen about pump filtering the oil in the sump at night -- he actually identified the bits and pieces to do it. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/09 at 20:03:30 I hadnt even thot of just hooking the bike up to "Dialysis". |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/09 at 20:05:41 His rig was closer to what is used to filter the fry oil at McDonalds each night. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by PTRider on 09/28/09 at 20:54:32 Most of us agree that it is wise to use an oil that is more robust than an automotive engine oil. One of the more robust oils will likely add many miles to the cam chain life, as well as other parts. Ordinary 10W-40 would be my last choice. Diesel engine oil is a good choice, and I prefer the synthetic for its resistance to oxidation, especially at the hottest points inside the engine. Motorcycle specific oil is different than automotive engine oil, diesel engine oil, or racing oil. The question is where we really need that high priced stuff, and the answer seems to be that there are lower priced alternatives that give very good protection. In very hot weather I prefer a 20W-50 or 15W-50 engine oil in our air cooled engines. The average sump temperature is one thing, but the engine needs protection at the hottest points. Mobil 1 racing oil is specifically not for wet clutches due to some of the antiwear agents they use (probably certain types of moly). Chevron says not to use their Delo 400 due to the type of moly they're currently using. Other oils with other types of moly work very well. I use Schaeffer oil (http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/705.pdf) with a big load of moly (and 0.15% zinc), as do the engineers at Schaeffer in their motorcycles, and we get excellent results. The Energy Conserving oils range from 0W-20 to 10W-30, so none will be in the 40wt range we need for these motorcycle engines. Most full flow filters have filtration ratings in the 20 micron range, and that is usually good for long engine life. A bypass filter that filters down to the single digit micron range will give longer engine life, but the cost of the filtration system is hard to justify for most of us. (Despite their advertising, there are no sub-micron filters. If there were, they'd filter out the essential additives in the oil.) A supermagnet on the filter or drain plug is a very good idea. Industrial oil filters on parts with steel-to-steel contact, like gear boxes, often have magnets. Expect to see a black "mud" of iron particles too small to be filtered out. Hope you don't see anything big enough to be glittery. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/09 at 20:55:58 Dialysis explained 1.Add a quick connect to the drain plug to pull the oil out. The thread is m12-1.25, same as the pressure plug and spark plug. 2.how to make sure the right amount of oil is in the case when you are done. 2 options; add a syphon tube that goes down to the oil level, then if it were over filled you could suck it back out. Or measure the oil you put back in ie, use the oil level window. 3.How to pump... I went to the inventors candy store, got myself a used pump ready to go $10. 4.filter mount, plenty of remote filter blocks about, I stole one from my brother. 5.filter, plenty of oil bypass filters that filter down to nothing, probably the most expensive item in the mod. 6.time, priceless. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/09 at 21:31:06 Sounds like something to do when everything else is all done.. Ill never get to it.. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by voldigicam on 09/29/09 at 03:19:48 Exactly how are special motorcycle oils different? It can't be the base, so it has to be in the additives. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Frostnasty on 09/29/09 at 04:04:54 464D48481213240 wrote:
Why would you want to change oil more frequently when you can get a premium oil and not have too.[/quote] I don't change mine more frequently, BUT, if I wanted to, I could actually afford to w/ Rotella T. ;) Hey, tons of MC riders use the stuff, and folks fairly new to the game need to know that they don't have to pay $8.00/quart or $100.00 to a stealer for a oil change... |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by serenity3743 on 09/29/09 at 05:17:40 01222A282B22222B3C4E0 wrote:
Yeah, Oldfeller, it was the first overbore. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 08:53:56 5F46454D404E404A4844290 wrote:
Motorcycle oil is made for transmission and wet clutches,and engines,Thats why you really should use Motorcycle Oil |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/29/09 at 09:17:52 m/c oil is generally made from velociraptor goo, fast and excellent mesh of teeth. HD oil is made from t rex goo, more balls than brains. and Klotz is made from triceratops goo, nothing is getting thru that skull. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/29/09 at 09:32:35 http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/KL-880.jpg |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 10:29:21 What I'm using is Klotz Hi Performance TechiniPlate Mx4 15w50. Its their newest oil |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/29/09 at 11:01:59 Bill, I finally found a review on Klotz 4 stroke oil. It's the only one I can find out on the net, period. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3150101/tm.htm ============ and here is the manufacturer's home page http://www.klotzwarehouse.com/index.php?productID=8824 and these are the testimonials provided by the mgf. http://www.klotzlube.com/Testimonials.asp ================= ================= I'm just teasing Bill, Klotz does make 4 stroke motorcycle oils, transmission oils, nitromethane racing fuels and all sorts of other goodies. It was and is mainly a racing 2 stroke fuel house that is trying to expand into four stroke territory, basing this expansion off of drag racing engine fuels and now engine oils that we could use in our bikes. However, Klotz won't tell you whats in the oil -- unlike all others including Amisol, Klotz sez it's all a proprietary secret. (jest trust us, we's lots better'n them other dudes) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:08:31 OF do you fly model airplanes?And thats not Klotz's homepage.Just go to Klotz and you get their homepage |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/29/09 at 11:17:26 http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/KL-880.jpg |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:19:23 Thats it,Oldfellow was looking at model airplane stuff :o |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:22:01 4A4144441E1F280 wrote:
Does kentucky fried chicken tell their recipe. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/29/09 at 11:23:19 44676F6D6E67676E790B0 wrote:
Interesting that he wouldn't say why he wouldn't use low percentages. I can only infer that it was running hot. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:25:53 I didn't know we had so many model airplane guys here. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:29:23 What % of Rosllea oil do you use Oldfellow and verslagen ;D 10 or 20% |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/29/09 at 11:39:20 Well, its because we can't find any reviews of your favorite oil other than 2 stroke reviews -- snowmobiles & outboard motors mostly. And the only "4 stroke" review is a special class of little bitty model airplane motor apparently. and that's not "jest kidding you" -- Klotz always was and is still mainly two stroke products. and they won't tell you what it is that is supposed to make their stuff better than other folks stuff, and the special technology they talk about was developed for their two stroke products (it is referred to in reviews going back a ways in the two stroke products). Bill, you are the only person in bikedom using their four stroke product. I'm proud of you -- you are a real pioneer. ============= http://www.suimportracing.com/images/KLOTZ%20CATALOG.pdf Here is the entire Klotz product line and you can see the 4 stroke stuff at the very end. Hey Bill, they sell filter oil too .... |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 11:41:45 Go to their homepage and look at testimony,Their homepage tells you anything you want know,Wear factor on the oil I use is Zero |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/29/09 at 11:58:55 Yes Bill, the only people that talk about their four stroke motorcycle oil is them -- and you. So it is zero rated -- I shudder to ask, what does the rating mean? It's got Techniplate, so what's that? The brand name Techniplate used to refer to a small white tube of white lithium grease that was used in reel and gun repair. Now it is Klotz's secret ingredient? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 12:51:06 Zero wear means no wear at all. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 12:53:36 I have a suit like that. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 13:15:49 That suit will last a long time |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Midnightrider on 09/29/09 at 13:30:30 Should have used Klotz on my hair instead of Brylcream. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/29/09 at 13:46:11 Without degrees in chemical and mechanical engineering, no one is qualified to discredit Klotz oils. Klotz has been in business many years making millions of dollars selling their product to satisfied consumers. Who here has designed and produced any lubrication product? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/29/09 at 14:26:43 Where are these educated people that you are referring to who are speaking up for Klotz 4 stroke oil products? Other than Klotz, that is -- Bill "believes" strongly in their product. Great. I would be happy to find some other real people who are using the 4 stroke product and saying ANYTHING about it on the net, good or bad. We've given up trying to find any technical specifications or characteristics to the Klotz special Techniplate additive that results in "zero wear". It was originally claimed to help coat cylinder walls after the 2 stroke combustion event took place .... this applies to your Savage engine how? ================= (there is only one of us currently burning enough oil to make this case for Klotz, and we are not naming any names as he knows who he is ....) ================= Zero wear in what test? Mobil 1 made the same claim for their original synthetic oil based on a sample of 1 engine. Klotz did a lot of their "claims" work on two stroke engines -- was this a two stroke test? Now we have Gort, 'ol Mr Show Me The Data who is saying we can't disprove Klotz's claims -- duh, we don't even know the unknown test basis that they used to prove their "zero wear" is actually due to their undefined "Super Techniplate" technology. We can't even prove the Techniplate stuff (whatever it is) is actually in there. Of course nobody can disprove completely undefined superlatives (that's why they called it snake oil in the old days -- you couldn't disprove it wasn't in there and that it didn't do all the stuff they said it did because it didn't exist in the first place). Now what do I know about Klotz? It cost a lot and it didn't smoke as badly as Yamalube did. I deemed it good two stroke oil and I used it. What do I know about Klotz 4 stroke oil after looking? It is a synthetic with Super Techniplate ingredient as it's claim to glory and it cost more per quart than a gallon of Rotella Triple Protection white jug oil costs you. Folks have technical analysis break downs on the composition of normal oils that we discuss and we can talk about what they have and don't have in them. You can't do this with Klotz as you can't prove (or disprove) or test for its undefined special ingredient. ============== PS You CAN prove there ARE herbs and spices in Colonel Sanders special recipe chicken. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by verslagen1 on 09/29/09 at 14:32:09 You know gort you make a valid point. No one here (well there is a couple who have the credentials) can dispute their claims. That being the guidelines there are no credible claims in its favor either. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 14:32:15 which herbs and spices |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 14:37:21 If you want you S40 to run good use diesel oil,To handle good car tires,I don't even no why they make motorcycle tires,Make your own air filter.If you don't follow these guide linesWooooooooooooooooo unto you you have been warned. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/29/09 at 15:18:19 10333B393A33333A2D5F0 wrote:
"Where are these educated people you speak of who are speaking up for Klotz 4 stroke products?" (O.F.) Pay attention to what I said. I said nothing about anyone speaking up for Klotz. What I said was that no one here is qualified to DISCREDIT Klotz products. Just because you can't find the data you are looking for doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Therefore, your conclusions about the product are unsupported and invalid. "WE'VE given up trying to find any technical specifications or characteristics to the Klotz special techniplate additive that results in zero wear." (O.F.) Throughout your posts you keep trying to validate your personal opinions by suggesting you speak for other members. You say, "We've given up". "We" didn't give up, you did. You do not speak for the members here on any issue, anymore than anyone else on this board does. http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/KL-880.jpg |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by easywriter on 09/29/09 at 15:42:14 Just want to say thank you for this informative thread! If it wasn't for the input, I may have went with the same Pennzoil that goes in my car. Based on what I read, I'm thinking Rotella T synthetic. It has lots of ZDDP and is cost effective. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 16:15:06 Sinc4e its obvious price equates with protective qualities I will make you happy & your bike last forever. I'll sell a gallon of oil in my own "specially marked" container for $1,000.00. You can change it as often as you like. Ill make more..& your bike CANT ever wear out, cuz you are spending tons for the oil. Dont worry about what is or isnt in it. I said its good, that should be enough to satisfy the most ardent oil lover. Taking orders now, PM me with how many gallons you want. Ill take 25% off on orders of 2 & 35% on 3 or more. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by voldigicam on 09/29/09 at 16:16:16 7F7471712B2A1D0 wrote:
Motorcycle oil is made for transmission and wet clutches,and engines,Thats why you really should use Motorcycle Oil[/quote] So you don't know what makes it different. A shame. One can buy various bases and additive packages, make up one's own oil, and slap whatever label on it one wants. Wet clutches I would expect mainly require oil that won't interfere with their functioning. A fairly robust system. That's not the part that requires gobs of extra stuff. The mix of engine parts spinning and sliding plus transmission gear stresses. I'm not convinced that sharing the sump is ideal, but that's the way it's done, so the oil needs to match. I would expect the key to be in the ZDDP aspects. I'm quite suspicious of the relabeling and packaging game. I'm in the violin trade, rampant with that type of game. I'm swayed by specs and tests, not labels. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 17:01:50 Japanese motorcycle companies want you to use JASO rated oil Klotz is. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 19:17:52 Is rotella |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by voldigicam on 09/29/09 at 20:23:47 Misdirection doesn't really do much. Base oil + additives = product Does product meet requirements of use? Those are the questions here. JASO / API certifications can help answer the second question. Where an oil meets standards that encompass those required by a specific piece of equipment, and has the appropriate additives, then it will work for that equipment. Racing oil just doesn't seem necessarily ideal. If indeed it's real racing oil. Generally has more oil, less additives, and gets changed immediately. At least that's what we did - run a race, change the oil & filter at a minimum. We'd still have problems with bearings and cams at times. Of course, when one takes an engine that's supposed to redline here, but you run it way up there, things will wear! Klotz V twin API-SH/CG-4 Rotella Syn API SL, SJ, SH/CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF On bare specs, Rotella looks pretty nice. It's superior to the usual. But they both look OK to me. Suzuki shop guy showed me another today he said worked better than Rotella Syn (which he was using before) in his bikes. Don't remember the name, but it was $35/gallon!! While this isn't an oil shootout, I tend to suspect Shell has more money for oil research than most entities. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 20:33:59 Just like I thought rotella not jaso approved Klotz mx4 is jaso approved,thats says it all your wasting your time.Warranty no good if you don't use approved oil. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 20:36:35 I dont need a warranty if its not broke, & so far, it is well out of warranty & it aint broke. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/29/09 at 20:39:04 JASO |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Routy on 09/29/09 at 21:00:21 2C283A303E3B203D2C3B490 wrote:
You really are kidding ain't you ? Now just what do you suppose would have happened if you used Penzoil, or Havoline or Castrol or Valveoline or any other motor oil out there ? Sounds to me like this oil garbage is starting to rub off on you,....you better be careful, you liable to start thinking like they do :-/ |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/29/09 at 21:56:32 5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:
My God, J.O.G., have you sold out to big business? Tell me it isn't so! But if you have, well, I'll take 2 gallons. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 22:08:21 Drop the $1500.00 in the mail & Ill get you oil right out to ya! Anyone else want the BEST Oil in the world? Ive had it tested & its GREAT stuff..really, no seriously, you can trust me,, |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/30/09 at 01:11:14 Part of the JASO requirement limits ash content to 1.2%. Ash content of ROTELLA T exceeds this limit. Oil ash contributes to combustion chamber and spark plug deposits |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/30/09 at 03:45:49 Jabman, your data is about 2 years old and applies to the older class of CI-4 oils (we use the current CJ-4 class oils -- the current Rotella T Triple Protection white jug dino oil has ash content that is within JASO limits). The older Rotella T formulation CI-4 from several years ago did not meet JASO for ash and the motorcycle world bitched about it voraciously until Shell fixed it. We may not be a big part of their user world (big trucks are) but we are VOCAL more than most. Rotella Syn CJ-4 in the blue jug has always had low ash and has always met JASO for all items since it came out in retail packaging. Now, to save Bill the effort there is no JASO emblem on the bottle because Shell does not put it there. Why? Truckers aren't smart enough not to get confused by the additional markings that don't have anything to do with their industry? Or why risk confusing them with a bunch of additional stuff on the bottle -- you got the #1 brand so don't mess with it? (You pick the reason you like best) Who knows? The folks who need to know about JASO already know about it and you have those kindly folks at Bob is the Oil Guy to keep Shell on the straight and narrow about all specs. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1125618 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/30/09 at 04:14:54 We sure don't want to confuse the truckers |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/30/09 at 04:41:45 ha sorry I waded in there with that. I cannot even get that oil in the UK. Im not looking to change oil, but what other non motorcycle oils do people use |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by voldigicam on 09/30/09 at 06:07:01 So, the next step, is there a low % consumer available additive that will improve clutch or valve train life or performance? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/30/09 at 10:19:48 If you want to pay as much as the Rotella oil costs to add ZDDP to some other oil you can go here. (why would you do that? Just buy the right oil in the first place) http://www.zddppluscentral.com/ ================================= Jabman, In England the name isn't Rotella, it is Rimula (don't ask me about brand name conflicts in various countries -- somebody has Rotella in use already) Rimula D Extra to be more specific ..... there are several choices in that product line http://cbrforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100315 As far as wading in, if you like the smell of mud come on in -- it's an oil war (fairly civilized one so far) We do these oil wars periodically as we have LOTS of newbies on this list and oil is important to our particular bike to use the right oil as we use some old antique valve/tappet technology and we have an oddity with our cam chain tensioner that makes oil very important to us. Plus our ever-helpful American politicians are playing with our oil through regulations actually causing our bikes to die prematurely. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1253437935/68#68 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/30/09 at 13:57:53 JASO |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/30/09 at 14:09:54 hey your right it is called Rimula D here |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/30/09 at 14:14:29 So now you can go get you a gallon and have what you need at a price that you can afford. And that's why we have these little discussions .... (other than to keep Bill occupied and out of trouble) Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 09/30/09 at 14:30:32 i can get suzuki and k&n oil filters at about the same price here. i dont suppose theres anyone knows which is best i use the suzuki filter now |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/30/09 at 14:46:42 K&N air filters do not filter the air as well as factory OEM filters, such as Suzuki's brand. In order to determine how well an air filter filters the dirt from the air, it must be tested using sophisticated equipment. Your eyes can't see everything that might pass through the filter, which is why this testing equipment is used: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1245172228 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 09/30/09 at 14:56:55 I have to agree with Gort, oil impregnated K&N filters have mixed reviews by those that test them. The media in a K&N is a quarter inch thick cotton gauze that is impregnated with oil. The oil traps particles in the air as the air moves through the media, so it is dependent on having enough oil and enough contact time to do the job. Oil base filters lose oil over time as it dries out or get "occupied" after collecting enough dust. Stopping all the small particles of dust in the air (IMHO) needs more depth of filter / air depth of travel and rigorous maintenance of a fairly decent oil supply in the filtration media to work as well or better than a stock Suzuki filter. Your Suzuki stock filter is good for several blow out cleanings and several years of use before plugging up so bad you have to replace it. ================= This here is an oil war, if you want to read up on filters go here. Once you have read up some on the subject, feel free to go start you up a filter war. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1244205111 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 09/30/09 at 15:01:28 I've used K&N air filters in motorcycle and cars,I could fill or see no difference in performance or gas mileages |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Gort on 09/30/09 at 15:51:51 K& N filters and anything else other than paper filters will not filter as well because of the air gaps in the filtration media, not because of the filter's thickness or amount of oil on it. K&N tells you to oil their filters because it stops dirt from permanently clogging their filter material. Their guarantee is void if you don't oil the filter. Instead, the dirt that hasn't already passed through, adheres to the oil. You then wash the oil off the filter's fibers, and re oil with new product and re-install the filter. If being more efficient meant that K&N filters had to be thicker, they would have done so. The benefit of thicker is that you won't have to clean it as often. More oil on the filter makes no difference because the engine vacuum will just suck it off the filter's fibers and still leave air gaps between filter's fibers or foam holes. Thats why k&N tells you not to over oil. You are just wasting your money. Even 2 K&N filters back to back aren't going to solve the problem of the filter media itself having too large of an air gap between filter strands or foam holes, to be able to stop the passing of dirt that a denser paper filter would stop. Look at the test results in the link I provided. K&N comes in second to last in its ability to stop dirt from passing through. Their are many explanations of this on the Internet, if you care to do the research. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jabman on 10/01/09 at 00:22:57 erm thanks but i mentioned suzuki and K&n OIL FILTERS. typically i have just finished installing my k&n round filter, it big and wide (6"long), as i was trying to go for the biggest surface area. so far very good however i noticed some tiny bits in the carb bowl when I did a re-jet after it. they were not there before. maybe I need a in-line fuel filter? ill keep an eye on it |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 10/01/09 at 00:44:35 Yep, I'm a fan of fuel filters for our bikes too. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1211846392/1#1 |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by jack8823 on 10/18/09 at 07:54:37 Shell Advance VSX4 10w40 - good or bad? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 08:19:46 You have discovered why Shell was so slow to put the JASO rating on the Rotella oil jugs -- in Europe they sell a high priced 4 stroke motorcycle oil called Advance and they didn't want to undercut their own motorcycle high price spread market. So, now they have European 4 stroke oil called Advance and maybe they will start to sell it over here now. I dunno. Interesting that it was originally a semi-synthetic oil and now it becomes a full synthetic at the same time that Rotella T6 comes out in America .... hmmmm, I wonder. Ve vill see ..... won't we? |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 09:10:03 OF you can have you oil shipped from Europe now thats nice to hear. |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by Oldfeller on 10/18/09 at 09:36:53 Or buy it locally from Walmart in gallon jugs for less money ;) |
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Title: Re: Best Oil for Savage Post by bill67 on 10/18/09 at 09:42:45 Shell the catch up company. |
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