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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 24 hours later... Help? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1253437935 Message started by RocksimusMaximus on 09/20/09 at 02:12:15 |
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Title: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/20/09 at 02:12:15 Ok... so as some of you know, my bike died on me last night. And shes still dead. Here are the facts. -Its a 2005 with 22K miles -I was on the freeway doin about 75 when she died. Suddenly. -When I tried to start her she just cranked and cranked and cranked. Never even got a "trying to turn over" sound. -Checked my fuel lines today, everything is fine. -Pulled the carburetor and opened it up... everything seems to be moving the way it is supposed to. -Pulled the spark plug, still looked to be in good shape, cleaned it just to be safe -Pulled out the spark plug and grounded it to the frame... I am still getting a spark. -Put the bike back together, let the battery charge all the way. -When I tried to start her again after all that... I got the EXACT same "crank without turn"... and the engine is cranking pretty fast... not lagging at all. -The battery connections all seem to be fine. I'm pretty much out of ideas. Does this sound familiar to anyone? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by False Illusion on 09/20/09 at 02:39:03 Rock... Is your kill switch engaged? I know this sounds elementary...but it happens... Sorry...you said you're getting spark...my bad Sounds like low or no compression.. Went to Clymers...according to it..here's the possibilities: 1) Fouled plug 2) Improperly adjusted choke 3) Contaminated fuel system 4) Improperly adjusted carburetor 5) Weak ignition coil 6) Weak ignition signal generator 7) Weak or faulty igniter unit 8) Incorrect type ignition coil 9) Poor compression 10) Improperly adjusted automatic decompression cable HTH my friend... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/09 at 03:49:49 Have you ever checked the cam chain? At 22K, you are past when lots of folks have changed theirs. Your problem may be a bit more serious than spark & gas issues. Any odd noise when it shut off? Did it lurch, jerk, make a racket? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Routy on 09/20/09 at 06:21:55 If the engine sounds normal while cranking, it most likely has compression. You could have verified that while cranking w/ the s plug out,...(feeling compression) I am surprised that you would pull the carb, ...the last thing I would have done. Nothing in the carb would suddenly stop it from running completely. I would have put it in "prime" mode, then removed the drain plug from the carb....to verify that it is getting fuel. You already verified that you have spark. If cam chain timing is still intact, it should run :-? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Demin on 09/20/09 at 06:22:05 46595F5845427343734B59551E2C0 wrote:
+1 that's what I was thinking. The elements to make anything run are air fuel compression and all at the right time. suck squeeze bang blow |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by ero4444 on 09/20/09 at 09:07:04 stalled at 75mph, me too - I ran out of gas. No coughing, it just stopped firing, and I was too slow on the uptake to go to RES. I don't want to insult your intelligence but you didn't say that you checked fuel or vacuum - put it in PRI? what is your actual battery voltage? Water level? Did you try to push start? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/20/09 at 10:39:38 Check for compression,... feel for air pressure out the muffler with your palm while cranking the engine over... If you don't feel the puffing,... pull the plug (again), and squirt a teaspoon of oil down the hole,... that will reseal the rings... they may have lost their seal from gas wash while cranking without starting.... I had a sudden engine cut-out once,... and traced it to an intermittent connection at the clutch lever safety cut-out... pull the wire connecters at the lever and the kickstand and clean them and reconnect... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/20/09 at 10:48:56 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
Checked my cam chain at about 18k... seemed good as new. I assume that if my cam chain broke it wouldve been fairly obvious that something Major was wrong. And nope... she didn't make any kind of weird noises. Just died as though she ran out of gas. When I put her to reserve... nothin. Put her to PRI... nothin. Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll double check the compression and I'll see about the clutch shut off switch. Would've never thought of that. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/09 at 11:36:39 at 18 K,, what was the measured extension on the tensioner? The cam chain doesnt break, the tensioner allows it to get slack in it, tensioner comes apart & drops junk in gears, so,, if it was around 18 mm,, you might want to go look again, Youve got gas & spark, all you arent certain of is air. You could pop the valve cover off & make sure the valves are still opening & closing. You can put it on TDC & see if youve got slack in the lifters on the exhaust, easiest valves to get to..That would at least prove the cam is still timed & spinning. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/20/09 at 11:53:54 Sudden quiet death is usually a petcock issue But also could be a electrical issue you said you pulled the gas line off (another thread) and got gas all over, that proves only one thing, you got gas to the top of the carb, doesn't prove it went in. Put a clear line on the bottom of the carb if you got a drain nipple, open the drain and put the petcock to prime, the gas should go up the line to the bowl gasket and shut off. can't twist the grip and see gas shoot anywhere, so not sure what's next w/o taking it apart and checking the main for dead mice. d did you check the fuses? I think the ig circuit is separate from the lighting and all. |
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Title: jumper cables Post by Stimpy on 09/20/09 at 12:30:51 did you drain the carb's tub and gas came out? (so it's 100% not dry, right?) ok, then try this: - turn on all switches as if ready to start bike (place in neutral) - grab some jumper cables, attach to cars battery (car, not huge truck, w/engine turned off) - attach (-) negative end to the engines clutch lever - then attach the (+) positive end to a large screwdriver that you will briefly use to touch the bikes electric starter's (+) cable/nut end with, see the black rubber cap in the pic? expose that and touch (+) there. - this direct jolt of current to the starter should start the bike if all electrical is well; this produces a strong spark and crank to the starter; if not maybe your footstand or neutral switch is busted, dunno. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/465880298_346c16a6b7.jpg?v=0 |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by gerald.hughes on 09/20/09 at 12:52:29 OK, I will throw in my two cents. Based upon my own sad experiences, I have only had the bike die on me three times. Once was when I accidently hit the kill switch. Once was when my vacuum line went on the petcock (I have since replaced it with a Raptor 660 petcock.), and once when I accidently activated the kick stand interlock with my heel. (That silly think can even be out of whack when the kick stand appears all the way up.) Don't know if any of this helps, just throwing suggestions out. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by False Illusion on 09/23/09 at 07:24:19 Hey RocksimusMaxsimus... Is the jury still out? ...Just wondering what caused the sudden death the other night.. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/23/09 at 16:00:35 Jury is still out... and I am just about stumped. So far I have: -confirmed I still have compression (STRONG gust of air that blew my thumb off when I put it over the spark plug hole) -confirmed I still have spark (took out the plug and grounded it to the bike frame) -changed the spark plug... for good measure -Adjusted my automatic decompression cable and my valves -Checked out my carb... gas is getting to the carb... and when I open up the drain plug... plenty of gas drains out. -Attempted to jump it using the method Stimpy suggested (made no difference whatsoever) -Cleaned the air filter... also for good measure. -Charged the battery all the way up -Checked battery connections (although I think jumping off of a car battery the way I did would have bypassed that problem) And after all that... not a d@m thing has changed. I turn the key... all the lights come on nice and strong, I go to start her... she just cranks and cranks and cranks like she's starved for gas. And the starter is still cranking as fast as it ever has. Trying to decide what my next move is... there has GOT to be something simple that I've just overlooked. I'd like to assume that if it were something wrong internally with the engine that it would at least TRY to turn over instead of acting like its out of gas... but maybe I'm just hoping. And as always... I'm taking suggestions... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/09 at 16:30:06 I'd pull the tube feeding air to the carb & spray some WD 40 in there. The propellant is propane. See if it bucks & coughs. It may even start. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Trippah on 09/23/09 at 16:30:54 You have verified that you are getting spark. Fuel is getting to the carb (you have tried it on prime to eliminate vacumn issues for the moment). Unless the timing is way off..what would happen if you put a little petrol into the empty spark plug hole, then put the spark plug back in?? Are you near anyone where youcould switch out working parts..eg carb? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/09 at 16:34:33 Dumping a splash down the carb on a V-8 isnt real easy to flood one out sompletely. This bike seems to flood pretty easy, which is why I suggested the WD40. But, if you are very careful, you might make it go with the priming of the cylinder, but, its only gonna fire once, unlike a V8 primed in the manifold. I suspect youve got some crap in the carb, I think shooting some vapor to it would be the quickest , easiest way to prove fuel flow into the cylinder. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/23/09 at 17:07:32 Gas in confirmed up to the float,... sounds like jets or fuel passages must be plugged up. If you have a set of guitar strings, .009 to .011" strings can run through jet holes and passages to clear blockages... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/23/09 at 17:10:07 27383E3924231222122A38347F4D0 wrote:
You talkin 'bout the tube that runs from the air filter to the carb? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/23/09 at 17:12:06 6D7B6C71697C716A1E0 wrote:
I already had the carb apart once... didnt notice much of anything... but I could be wrong... luckily I DO have some guitar strings if I pull the carb again. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/23/09 at 17:21:30 That vacuum tube coming off the carb, up to the petcock will feed WD-40 or a starting fluid straight into the intake manifold... You may get a few chuffs that way, but my money is on a plug-up in the carb. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/23/09 at 17:27:51 6771667B63767B60140 wrote:
Ok I tried that and no change. So uh... what does that mean? Lol. Time to give the carb a thorough clean and rebuild? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by LANCER on 09/23/09 at 17:50:28 You have fuel TO the carb, fire, and air coming in. That is what is needed to make an engine run. There has to be a problem getting the fuel/air mix from carb to cylinder, which means one or more of the TINY passageways within the carb body are clogged. Besides checking the pilot and main jet for cloggs, there is also the center passage of the needle jet and also at least 4 very tiny holes on the sides of the needle jet. Also check the long thin brass tube that sticks down in the float bowl, it has a very tiny hole up through the shaft of the tube and also 2 cross holes near the end of the tube; one on each side of the tube. This is involved in the pilot circuit function. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/23/09 at 19:09:10 What made the bike die in the first place? Could the carb have done that? :-? Didnt someone here have a electrical short one time that caused the bike to die and then not start. Could there be a pinched gas or electrical line somewhere? Just asking you guys,cause I'm getting real curious ;) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/23/09 at 20:13:38 5F6B7C7C4A69706B706D190 wrote:
That seems to be the million dollar question. I'd filled up about 40 miles earlier... so it was nowhere near time to hit the reserve yet. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/23/09 at 20:27:15 Do you think it might have been bad gas? I did get bad gas in my car one time and thought I wouldnt make it home. But it ran okay for about 30+ miles or more before it started acting up. I dont know,could bad gas do that to a bike,this bike :-/ Just trying to help :) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/23/09 at 20:35:11 Rocky, you're in Santa Monica if I remember correctly. I could be there sunday if there was food and beer involved. ;D pm me |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/09 at 20:40:13 566B676F776D69717749657C6D697177040 wrote:
You talkin 'bout the tube that runs from the air filter to the carb?[/quote] Yep.. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 09/24/09 at 14:23:01 Was there any slightly louder than normal knocking noises before it died? The reason I ask , what you described is what the previous owner of the Savage I had said happened to it. He said it felt like it had run out of gas. He quickly switched to res and got it started for a second or two then nothing. Would crank fine, just didn't ever catch. His problem turned out to be a melted piston. So..... Do a real compression test with a gauge, so we can cross that off the list. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/24/09 at 18:17:09 473E5E72707822130 wrote:
Headed to Auto Zone to get a compression gauge. That carburetor is clean as a whistle now... and still getting the same crank but no catch problem. Have a real bad feeling I get to spend my day tomorrow pullin that motor. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by smokin_blue on 09/24/09 at 18:25:37 rare but could be a tosted CDI or did the timing jump on the cam chain. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/09 at 22:39:23 5C616D657D67637B7D436F7667637B7D0E0 wrote:
Headed to Auto Zone to get a compression gauge. That carburetor is clean as a whistle now... and still getting the same crank but no catch problem. Have a real bad feeling I get to spend my day tomorrow pullin that motor. [/quote] Have you fed that engine a combustible gas yet? WD 40 or a small wisp of ether ( starting fluid)? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/24/09 at 23:01:23 473E5E72707822130 wrote:
Yep. WD 40. Didn't make any difference. Not really sure what that tells me though... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by kennycreed on 09/24/09 at 23:40:08 FIRST check oil level in case petrol has gone down into oil , then get a BRAND NEW SPARK PLUG, next remove old plug from cylinder and spin the engine with starter to clear and dry out cylinder,get a bit of tubing that fits into plug hole (or use a syringe if you have one) and pore two teaspoons of petrol down tube into cylinder about five ml. Remove tube insert NEW!! SPARK PLUG..No choke,, No throttle. Ign ON! hit starter,BANG thump thump thump |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/25/09 at 00:20:16 Put down that gun!... :-? Time to stock up on some beer and hot dogs, and take Versy up on his offer... He'll get you rollin'!.... ;) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/25/09 at 00:36:19 If the gas was contaminated/bad....wouldnt it still be a good idea to drain the gas and put fresh gas in? I dont think I've seen this mentioned. I know Verslagen is going over.Well I think he is. But I'm just wondering if this would help anyway. :-/ No doubt verslagen could get it running though :) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by kennycreed on 09/25/09 at 01:06:12 If any of the switches are faulty, example, kill switch off engine wont turn, clutch switch, foot stand switch, you wont get a spark at the plug, so if you are getting a spark at the plug when you test it, all your switches are ok |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/09 at 03:19:46 724F434B53494D55536D4158494D5553200 wrote:
If the carb wasnt feeding fuel to the engine, the WD 40's propellant should have fired it & proved you had a fuel delivery prob/ Yep. WD 40. Didn't make any difference. Not really sure what that tells me though...[/quote] |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Bubba on 09/25/09 at 07:02:11 I know, stupid...but have you tried to pop start it? Just bypass the starter altogether...just a thought. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/09 at 08:12:31 I cant wait to find out what this booger is. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/09 at 09:23:25 You gotta volt meter? This wouldn't kill the bike while running but... You can crank and still not start. the ig circuit is voltage sensitive. one bad cell is all it takes. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by PhilM on 09/25/09 at 10:19:51 I agree it may be the battery. My motor would turn over but not fire and I cleaned my carb twice before I realised my battery was shot. Have you been using an auto battery charger on it (like I did :-[) Does it not hold a charge for long? I'd certainly recommend you get a meter on it and check it is ok. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/25/09 at 10:25:35 1921202504490 wrote:
Using a battery tender. Seems to hold a charge fine. And from my understanding... when I tried to jump it with a car battery (bypassing the bikes battery)... that would have started it if the problem was the battery. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/09 at 10:49:20 Does it sound like its turning over faster that it used to? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by False Illusion on 09/25/09 at 10:55:25 706F696E73744575457D6F63281A0 wrote:
+1 Rock...Take Verslagen up on his offer and document the experience with pix and even video...youtube it so we can all get a glimpse of this anomaly... ;) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/25/09 at 15:23:19 5F4046415C5B6A5A6A52404C07350 wrote:
When I hook it up to the car battery? Or just in general? Well... no matter. The answer is no on both counts. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/25/09 at 15:28:39 64687B7D7067090 wrote:
+1 Rock...Take Verslagen up on his offer and document the experience with pix and even video...youtube it so we can all get a glimpse of this anomaly... ;) [/quote] Oh I'm definitely taking him up on his offer. But I'm off work for the next couple days so I'm going back and forth between working on my car (93 Mustang with a MILLION problems), just in case the bike is down for an extended period of time, and trying to piece together the single cylinder Rubik's cube I seem to have created. Went to Auto Zone to try to find a compression gauge... and they didn't have one that would fit the bike... only for larger plugs. So nuts to that idea. Might run up there and have them test the ignition coil... maybe its just too weak of a spark? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 09/25/09 at 15:37:17 For some reason I am overly curious about this problem. Hope you get it fixed tomorrow or at least find the cause! Also hope you get the car or MC one fixed for transportation. Good Luck on both! :) (and really I cant wait to see what the problem was.I bet you too,huh :) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/09 at 09:27:39 497478706872766E68567A6372766E681B0 wrote:
When I hook it up to the car battery? Or just in general? Well... no matter. The answer is no on both counts. [/quote] Good. IF its faster than normal, theres a drop in compression. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/26/09 at 10:07:25 Compression drop can be from cranking for so long without starting ... The gas not burning in the cylinder washes the oil off the cylinder wall and the rings no longer seal... then no compression, and no gas is drawn, and then... no startsy, no go... :-? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/09 at 10:40:03 I yhadnt made the leap to gas washing oil & losing so much compression & vacuum it wouldnt suck the air / fuel mix & wouldnt fire, but even if that was the case, the WD40 should have handled it. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Serowbot on 09/26/09 at 10:53:56 607F797E63645565556D7F73380A0 wrote:
It would need the compression to suck the WD-40 down in the cylinder from the vacuum port... When it's gone like that,.. you have to squirt it right down the spark plug hole... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/09 at 20:51:45 If thats the case, the Id pull the air inlet tube( Yea,,, agains, sorreee) & put my hand across the carb intake & see how hard its sucking. ( One things sure, "SOMEthin is sucking,,) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by kennycreed on 09/27/09 at 02:37:36 You've tried all the obvious, now the exhaust valves. At 22k the valves will have bedded up into there seats reducing the clearance on your tappets. The engine will run fine for a while, until running hard and hot for a period of time the valve stems will gradually expand lengthwise and close off the remainder of your clearance, which won't allow the valves to close cutting out the engine.. When this happens the hot gasses burn off the carbon round the valve seating reducing your compression which wont allow the engine to start, though it still has what would seem a fair compression,, Anyway, after that spiel, since you have the tank off set your exhaust to tappets to 5 thou. and give her a go,,cheers and hope for a bang ,,kenny |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by kennycreed on 09/27/09 at 04:34:16 PS. 00.5 and if she starts reset them to the book |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/27/09 at 11:56:40 bad news 1st inspection I found something I've never seen before. the decomp lever was stuck up. :-? So we took off the front valve cover to see what's up with that. nothing, so I used a wrench and returned it the regular position. while we were there, I put it in gear and rotated the engine as he had the plug out already. Hmmm, valves don't move. :-? next we took off the clutch cover... uh oh :o plunger had fallen out. in a brief serch we found the cam gear lock plate. :o |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/09 at 15:26:35 ***** Online What happened? Posts: 5629 Re: 24 hours later... Help? Reply #8 - 09/20/09 at 19:36:39 Alert Board Moderator about this Post! Quote Modify at 18 K,, what was the measured extension on the tensioner? The cam chain doesnt break, the tensioner allows it to get slack in it, tensioner comes apart & drops junk in gears, so,, if it was around 18 mm,, you might want to go look again, ******************************************************** Youve got gas & spark, all you arent certain of is air. You could pop the valve cover off & make sure the valves are still opening & closing. ********************************************************* You can put it on TDC & see if youve got slack in the lifters on the exhaust, easiest valves to get to..That would at least prove the cam is still timed & spinning. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/27/09 at 15:42:52 What? you trying to say "I told you so" ? life sucks... bing bang blow. He couldn't make the logical leap. the way everyone describes the cam chain letting go (including myself) the engine should rip itself from the frame, screams FTW and become a speed bump. well, thats the worst case, sometimes it just quits and wispers 'help me'. He might be lucky. We found the cam gear screws at the bottom though. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by babyhog on 09/28/09 at 10:46:36 So for non-mechanic me, can you explain (more simply) what the problem was? And is it fixed now?? (After so many suggestions [which I have to say, totally impresses me with the stuff you guys come up with to check] I got interested in this problem) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/09 at 11:25:56 read the 1st post... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029 as a preventive fix I offer... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1180206459 Rocky's problem happens every year. Bikes will come up on a certain mileage and the owner has a choice, fix it or sell it. Some nube will pick it up with no idea of what's about to happen. There's no voice box on the bike to tell you 'danger will robinson danger' and if you're the 1st this year to get the problem or you think 'naw can't happen to me' think again. The cam chain gremlin can land on you any time after 8,000 (our worst case) or you can push the envelope pass 30,000 miles. If you never look at it, you will never know. Until then, be vary aware of any strange knocking down below. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/28/09 at 18:10:43 Snapped a few quick pics of the carnage... for those interested. http://s833.photobucket.com/albums/zz253/laz4frontman/ |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by bill67 on 09/28/09 at 18:15:08 What kind of oil were you using? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/28/09 at 18:31:49 Just 10-40. Nothin fancy. Don't remember what brand it was. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/09 at 18:57:35 Well the keeper still had the tabs bent up so the screws just didn't back out. How's the cam journals look? did the cam sieze up shear off the pin and bolts? dam that's gotta be hard to do. tell us about the piston when you can. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/29/09 at 00:16:26 Yeah... I noticed that about the tabs too. Not really sure HOW I managed to break those bolts. I didn't really give the head a good inspection last night. By the time I wrapped everything up the sun was goin down, so I'll give everything the once over in the next couple of days. Though I DID pop up the cylinder and have a look at the piston... no holes, nothing wrong with it that I could tell... looked like the pictures. Bore seemed to be fine too. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Oldfeller on 09/29/09 at 04:39:27 That's good news. Wishing for the best on those cam journals when you get in there. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 06:42:12 Im not believing the chaos in there. The HP required to shear those cam bolts? Im not able to visualize what happened. Im sure these thoughts will stop at a question mark instead of a statement, but, Ill try to walk thru it. Running along & the tensioner lets go.. crud gets in gears & makes .. NO,, Lets try this. Running along & tensioner lets go.. Something rides the cam chain to the cam gear & gets pinched going over the top, driving down on the cam gear, busting the bolts? IF the rosy picture I painted is what happened, IDK how the near journal will fare. That would be some serious "Crush". If thats what happened, the cam may be distorted some? Will cast even bend or does it just break? |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by RocksimusMaximus on 09/29/09 at 18:17:30 Camshaft and journals both look OK. I'll snap some pics of them in a little bit... but nothing visibly wrong to the naked eye. Or at least the untrained naked eye... The mystery continues... |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/09 at 19:15:53 You need 2 ( pick an object) that are straight, tall enough so the cam lobes dont hit anything, lay the cam journals on them & roll the cam back & forth, look for any wobble anywhere. Once you get the gear back on, that will show it clearly. If the gear wobbles when the cam rotates, its done..HEY, thats where to lay it, in the journals..duuuhhh, what was I thinking? Take the head cover & flip it over & set the cam in there & see how it acts. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 10/01/09 at 02:32:01 So what was the final outcome/main problem? Or is there one yet? :-/ |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by verslagen1 on 10/01/09 at 07:09:41 bike no go |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Routy on 10/01/09 at 07:20:43 4276616157746D766D70040 wrote:
From what I concluded, the camshaft quit turning because the cam gear bolts broke off,......... for what reason I'm not sure anybody knows yet. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 10/01/09 at 14:04:20 Thanks Routy! This is quite the mystery....I have gotten very interested in it ! I appreciate the info. :) |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/09 at 14:17:30 The only way I can see it happening is something got between the gear & chain & the engine pulled it thru there, shoving the gear down & breaking the bolts. Thers no room for anything to go thru there.. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by Oldfeller on 10/01/09 at 14:35:50 Are the bolts std. jap bubblegum stuff or are they hardened tool steel bolts? On a critical application you would think the bolts would be something better than the soft stuff they use elsewhere. I saw lots of damage to the sprockets in the pics -- sprockets ARE case hardened steel so what did the damage to them? Whatever it was had to be HARD as well. Where was the little roller pin that goes thru the sprocket into the cam flange? Had someone worked on this bike before? ============== My bet is "repair error" and somebody had worked on it before. Overtorque the two soft bolts and they yeild & stretch -- and then snap in use releasing the little hardened roller pin to do the damage as seen in the pics. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/09 at 14:55:15 Looks like something went up behind the gear & pryed it away from the cylinder. The bolt holes show contact with the bolts. What the hayull did it, IDK, but if I was doing the autopsy, that would be my preliminary report. |
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Title: Re: 24 hours later... Help? Post by FreeSpirit on 10/02/09 at 01:55:14 Is there a fix for it? :-/ |
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