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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Are Motorcycle Oils Different? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1250391006 Message started by PTRider on 08/15/09 at 19:50:06 |
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Title: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/15/09 at 19:50:06 Below is a blurb from Infineum, one of the world's major additive suppliers. Infineum (http://www.infineum.com/company/index.html) is a joint venture between ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch/Shell. Engine oils are about 75~80% pure base oil (http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/) and about 20~25% additive package...detergents, dispersants, antiwear agents, antioxidants, antifoamants, pour point depressants, corrosion inhibitors, friction modifiers, viscosity index improvers, dye, etc. Whether an engine oil is conventional or synthetic is the difference in the base oil. Quote:
JASO = Japanese Automotive Standards Organization Other major additive suppliers include Chevron Oronite (http://www.chevron.com/products/oronite/products/oil-four-stroke.asp), Lubrizol (http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/Motorcycle/default.html), Afton Chemical (http://www.aftonchemical.com/About+Us/index.htm) (no motorcycle oil package from Afton). So...Motorcycle oil is different from automobile engine oil in more than just the price. I'm not saying that using motorcycle oil is essential to long engine, transmission and clutch life--I'm using a "racing oil (http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/705.pdf)" labeled as OK for motorcycles--just that it isn't the same stuff in a higher priced bottle. The high price is because the oil is something different in relatively low production volumes...and because they can get the high price. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Bear on 08/15/09 at 20:59:56 You peaked my interest with the JASO spec. Went out to the garage and checked a bottle of Valvoline 20W-50 Motorcycle oil. The brand that I use. Label says JASO MA. That is the motorcycle rating. It does NOT have the energy conserving starburst (You don't want that anyway) It is also rated API SF/SG/SJ I stocked up when it was on sale $2.99 qt and bought 3 cases of the stuff. It also makes my very old John Deere riding mower sing. Mower runs HOT HOT HOT (big weeds - full throttle) and cheap 30 weight will smell burnt and have a chocolate color when drained. Valvoline motorcycle oil does not burn like that in the mower. Oil is like paint - Ya get what you pay for. Valvoline Motorcycle oil $2.99 on sale, regular 3.99 qt. Quite reasonable for quality stuff. In this small town of 5500, two auto supply stores carry it. I do have Rotella in the shop - for my diesel tractor - what it is made for!! |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Gort on 08/15/09 at 21:52:17 This info should also be in the Technical section. Posts there usually last longer. This is important information and valuable to those who are confused by all the uninformed opinions that are posted on this site about which oils are best for your bike. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/15/09 at 22:02:38 friction modifiers, Wuhh? I do have Rotella in the shop - for my diesel tractor - what it is made for!! & as long as it has nothing in it that makes it Not Suitable for bikes, why not use it?If it will handle the rigors of keeping a diesel in one piece. how crappy can it be? |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Bear on 08/15/09 at 22:41:13 504F494E53546555655D4F43083A0 wrote:
Never said Rotella was crappy. I used to work for an electric utility with about 200 vehicles. Their "fleet" oil was Rotella, 15w-40 used in everyting from diesel line trucks, backhoes, compressors, pickups and sedans. Rotella is good oil, but is it the best thing for a motorcycle? Why not use stuff that is formulated and labeled for motorcycles? Price difference between Rotella and Valvoline motorcycle oil is about the price of a Snickers Bar. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/15/09 at 22:44:35 I grabbed Rotella at $9.00/gallon. 4X $3.00 is $12.00. How big a Snikkers you buyin there Duuude? |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by voldigicam on 08/16/09 at 04:32:39 That's a very interesting and useful pieced of information. I just put a second batch of Rotella in my bike. Immediately could tell that just under 1000 miles on the last batch had torn up the oil pretty well. Improved shifting and clutch friction zone. Just a tiny bit, but very clear. I was sure the oil was degrading, changing it just demonstrated how fast it does tear up. I'll get some JASA MA oil next time, assuming I can find some around here. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by srinath on 08/16/09 at 08:10:32 Rotella is great oil, I have run it in my GS500, the volvoline 20W50 is a great buy @3 bones a bottle, no question. Personally I like that 20W50 range though not for low mile suzuki's. Jaso IMHO is over rated. If an oil says SF/SG/SJ/SM then its the same as SM. The standard is decreasing amount of the good stuff. No more than so much PPM of zinc lets say, and 20 = F, 15=G, 10=J, and 5=M, so SM oil automatically is under 20, 15, 10 and 5 so its SF/SG/SJ/SM. I like oil that is SF and nothing else. I want zinc, I dont have catalytic converters in my bike and sensors either. I'd run SA is they had that. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/16/09 at 08:37:29 --Not all oils contain every one of the possible additives, and I might have left one or two off my list. Some don't contain friction modifiers or contain some that don't harm wet clutches. The friction modifiers in ATF are an example as ones suitable for wet clutches, but they are not a direct relationship to engine oil (no, don't put ATF in your motorcycle). --Only xW-20 & xW-30 oils can qualify to get an Energy Conserving label--They will also have the ILSAC GF-4 label. --Your comments about zinc content don't quite hit the mark. The zinc is bound in a zinc phosphate compound, ZDDP, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate or related compounds. The phosphate limit in GF-4 oils (API Service Category SM, but not all SM oils are GF-4) is from 0.06% to 0.08%, and the zinc in the compound is about 10% higher than the phosphate. SM oils that are not GF-4 can have a higher zinc phosphate content. SJ & SL oils that were also GF-2 & GF3, respectively, and Energy Conserving had an upper limit on the phosphorus of 0.1%. Even SG oils usually didn't have more than 0.1%. SF oils had whatever the oil maker chose to put in, sometimes up to 0.15%. It must be noted that ZDDP isn't the only antiwear and antiscuff agent, and antioxidant...it is just very effective and very cheap. The latest diesel engine spec, API CJ-4, has a phosphate limit of 0.12%. Earlier diesel engine specs had no limit. SA, SB, SC, SD, and SE oils would be a disaster in any modern high output engine, including ours. More about American Petroleum Institute Service Categories: http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/English_Oil_Guide.pdf |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/09 at 05:39:50 How long does it take your bike to warm up? That is how long that the difference in the first set of weight numbers applies to anything that is real, and it has more to do with cold climate starting ease than anything to do with normal temperature running of the engine. A 0w50 and a 20w50 are the same thickness at running temperature. The 0w50 will crank a lot easier in a Minnesota winter and will circulate a lot faster (provide lube film to all parts faster) and allow the car to warm up quicker. Most "wear" on an engine takes place at start up due to no oil being there at the particular junction -- does everyone understand/agree with this traditional many times proven nugget of information? For us, getting oil pumped up to the aluminum cam journals very quickly on start up is the key vital item for our engine. The normal protection difference between an xxw50 and an xxw40 oil at operating temperature is not a whole lot. Suzuki gives them the exact same higher level temperature range rating -- right out the top of the chart. Indeed, the absolute top temperature level protection would go to the synthetic 40 weight instead of the dino 50 weight as the dino 50 would break down some before the synthetic 40 weight would even start to degrade. The dino 50 would be thinned and damaged to offer a lesser protection level than the stubborn synthetic 40 at any very high "motor damaging" temperature range. ============ Truth is, most of us judge an oil by what we see/feel when we pour it out of the bottle. And that is unfortunately the least important characteristic of an oil. Can you agree that diesel engines are much more stressful than a car engine? Do you remember when Chevy took a stock 350 big block and turned it into a diesel back in the late 70's and how the world howled and forced Chevy to eat warranty on ALL the products they put that engine into because the 350's block/mains/rod bearings simply couldn't take what a diesel engine dealed out in abuse levels to both oil and bearings? A diesel runs hard compared to a normal car engine -- 20:1 compression is much higher physical forces on all related components compared to 10:1. Last point is this -- there are no xxw50 diesel oils. They are all xxw40 oils because that is the optimum weight to move around an engine and to provide maximum protection. Racing engines from the major race crews don't run 50w oils either as it saps horsepower and they don't want or need that sort of action. Joe ordinary believes that thicker is better and 50w oils pour thicker than 40w or 30w oils so they are obviously "better". ;D Happy oil war to you all ..... |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/17/09 at 11:03:48 I've run diesel engines that used 30 wt. oil in the crankcase and 60 wt. for cylinder & ring lubrication...these ran at 4,792 hp per cylinder...straight 12 cylinder two-stroke 57,500 hp @ 95 rpm, also multiple 3,350 hp 900 rpm straight 8 generator engines with 40 wt oil. The oil viscosity must relate to the size of the clearances. And, other things remaining equal, higher viscosity oil has greater film strength. The pressure on the bearings is a product both the force and the surface area of the bearings. Expect truck-size diesels to be using diesel-rated 10W-30 commonly in the future for the 1%~2% fuel savings, and the engines will be designed for this oil. The big engines had bearing shells that needed chain hoists to lift the shells. We straddled the journals like we were on horseback. Yep, a crew of men with chain hoists in the crankcase. Yes, those Oldsmobile 350 diesels were a disaster. GM converted the gas engine to diesel, tested them, redesigned whatever broke, tested again, redesigned again, etc., etc., until they improved from terrible to not-very-good. They had low power and no real reason to be on the market at all. The really, really disappointed owners were those with this engine in a pickup...low power and poor reliability. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/17/09 at 11:32:55 Why does Amsoil have motorcycle oil and oil for diesels,Ask them which you should run in a motorcycle. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/09 at 12:31:30 Since Amisol charges over $10 a quart for either item, I won't be asking them anything. To buy their product is an exercise in "conspicuous consumption" (fancy talk for putting on the Ritz). I ain't that rich, thank you. Hard truth time -- our bikes run great big honking ball bearings at all cross shaft positions and any oil that will not cook itself if over-heated will lube a ball bearing (if there is a good flow of it and you don't overheat the engine). Our unique needs are a large amount of anti-galling additives that don't hurt our clutches (this generally means ZDDP) in a base oil that can withstand any stupid ridiculous heat build up in the head area that might occur due to outside temperature or very hard useage (and this means a full synthetic oil). Finally, beyond the high temperature rating and the flat tappet/cam and cam chain thing with ZDDP, you need to get some oil flow up to the cam bearings pronto when you crank the engine in the wintertime. So, pick your poison and go with it. For those that want to pay over $30 for an oil change, go with Mobil 1 motorcycle or the Amisol motorcycle oils. For those who want the same protection components in a less pricey product (in a big 'ol blue gallon jug no less) buy some of this stuff. It (and some EMCO oil filters) will cost you less than half what the Mobil 1/Amisol oil change will cost you. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Rotella.JPG |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/17/09 at 13:20:52 I want use nothing but Klotz racing synthetic motorcycle oil in my motorcycles High price oil but you save in the long run.Hasn't used a drop in the last 2000 miles,But I don't run high rpms. It has zero wear. I wouldn't use nothing but Suzuki oil filters they rate at the top and also fit. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Serowbot on 08/17/09 at 14:09:38 Don't know where they're available but, I get Hi-Flo oil filters from my local shop for $2.99, and they are indistinguishable from Suzuki.... Suzuki doesn't actually make their own filters... they are sub-contracted....as are tires, tubes, shocks, plugs, bulbs, carbs, oil,... and on and on... |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/17/09 at 14:18:25 Suzuki oil is made by shell,But its not diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/09 at 14:43:26 Yup, it lacks the soot dispersants and anti-foaming package levels that a diesel oil requires. And since most Suzuki bikes don't have flat tappet valve trains (our bike is a living antique in that aspect) it may be somewhat short on ZDDP levels as well. A diesel oil will strip all the sludge & crap out of your bike's engine, cleaning it up in a few oil changes to a very internally clean state. Someone mentioned this action up thread, but they had thought the oil was breaking down. If it was Rotella Syn, it wasn't even getting broken in good yet at 2,000 miles but may have looked dirty from having scrubbed a bunch of the residual filth out of your engine. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by voldigicam on 08/18/09 at 05:43:58 Wasn't Rotella synthetic. Various charts - gotta go to work or I'd find one - show oil shear resistance breaking down pretty quickly in a wet plate clutch system. I suspect my use is pretty hard on it - a fair amount of friction zone every morning when fairly cold, constant shifting, and a fairly short commute. The color I'm not worried about. Figured the diesel oil would clean the interior nicely - the first load of oil was pretty dirty in 200 miles! This second load is pretty clean looking at 250 miles. Figure most of the crap will be out with this load. I'm also doing longer trips when I can, with less shifting. And I'm getting better at shifting a bike, so it should be good for a little longer. The obvious thing for me to do is to get another bike. Thinking Volusia . . . . |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/09 at 05:48:37 Another bonus for no clutch? No oil shear? Of course, oil shear, from gears, etc, but when using no clutch, less? |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/09 at 08:30:13 Do some research and you will find that synthetics have greater shear resistance compared to dino oils, especially the multi-weight 10w40 class of dino oils. Full synthetics like the Rotella Syn are a homogeneous single molecule base synthetic oil with no polymer adders -- that is why you get the low first number as the Syn Rotella simply is what it is and it does not change viscosity very much as the temperature goes up or down. It is close to the proper thickness/viscosity for a 250 degree fully engine warmed up 40 weight dino oil as it sits there in the bottle. Throw it in the freezer and it won't thicken very much at all. Heat it up to 400 degrees and it won't thin out very much at all. It is what it is. It is an extreme temperature resistant molecule (says so on the bottle too). As such it totally lacks many of the polymer multiweight adders that are put in dino oils to get the multi-weight ratings, polymer adders that shear easily in a gear box, giving the multi-weight dino oils their bad rap for shearing. And what makes you think a wet clutch is particularly hard on synthetic oil anyway? Lots of square inches of contact surface in a clutch and pressure per square inch in a clutch is quite low -- if our clutch had enough pressure/shear to be hard on a synthetic oil it would shred any dino oil for breakfast. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/18/09 at 11:16:59 Oil molecules don't shear. The polymer viscosity index improvers shear. These are tiny bits of plastic that change shape as the temperature of the oil changes. They thicken a hot thin oil so it tests like a hot thick oil. Under mechanical stress these plastic bits get broken (sheared) and no longer thicken the oil. There is a range of quality and cost available in VIIs. The best are extremely shear stable. I looked at a product data sheet (http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9000.pdf) for a better oil than Shell Rotella T synthetic, and even this oil uses "a highly shear stable viscosity index improver." Among the reasons this is a better oil than Rotella syn is that it is about 75% Group III base oil and about 25% Group IV (PAO) base oil. I don't know if a wet clutch shears VIIs. The transmission gears do shear the VIIs. Shell makes the base oil in Rotella syn by refining crude oil. It has the legal right to be marketed as a full synthetic in the U.S., but is not a "true" synthetic like the polyalphaolefin or the ester base oils. Chevron has great web pages describing their Group III base oil and how it is refined from an intermediate product in crude refining, vacuum gas oil: http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/isodewax.aspx And here's Chevron's description of the performance of Group III base oil...Chevron calls theirs Unconventional Base Oil, UCBO. Shell calls theirs Extremely High Viscosity Index, XHVI. http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/grp3_perform.aspx So, among so-called synthetic oils there are differences in the cost, performance, and chemistry in the base oils, and differences in the cost and performance in the additive packages including the viscosity index improvers. Probably the best synthetic is PAO mixed with some ester base oil. Group III with some PAO is excellent. The best Group III base oils are very good, and there are some low cost Group III on the market that just meets spec and aren't that great. Shell makes a very good Group III. Here's a comparison of various base oils showing where PAO is better and where Group III is just as good: http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/comp_med.aspx Conventional oils will be made from Group II or a base oil above the Group II spec but not quite Group III unofficially called Group II+. A 15W-40 is probably a mixture of Group II and Group II+. A conventional 10W-40 is probably Group II+ with ample VIIs or cheaper Group II with lots of VIIs. Just about every oil, conventional and many synthetics will contain VIIs. Less VIIs and higher cost/quality VIIs are better. Viscosity index is a numerical index of the viscosity change in oil from 40°C to 100°C. A higher VI number indicates an oil that thins less when hot and thickens less when cold. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by voldigicam on 08/19/09 at 06:03:07 65464E4C4F46464F582A0 wrote:
I know synthetics have greater shear resistance. The lack of polymer crap is what attracts me. I never indicated that I thought a wet clutch was hard on synthetics. I think it's hard on multiweight additives in conventional oil. You misread me. My only concern with synthetics is cost. I think I'll keep this bike, so that weighs into the equation less. I'll have to find a good local source for a reasonably priced synthetic. I've been using the Rotella non-synthetic, and it works fine but I'm far from convinced it's lasting a long time. I may run another batch through after this one. It's cleaning the engine out very nicely! Not that there was much crap, but it's obviously pulled out some. The first batch went dirty very fast, this batch not so fast. I'll drain it pretty quick, too. The filter looks good still, through the magnification I can bring to bear. Which isn't enough, of course! I imagine I can use it for another change, then change it out when I go to synthetic. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/09 at 10:20:17 Since I can watch the oil usage go up as the oil gets about 2,500 miles on it, I feel confident it is shearing, the shorter chains are more able to go into places & be burned off or leak out. So, I change it. The parts are well protected, I believe. I have learned the pattern & I change it as soon as I see an increased use. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/09 at 11:42:11 Cost Comparison (from lowest to highest per oil change) Rotella T 15w40 Triple-protection white jug dino $11 a gallon at Walmart -- thermal protection good -- (needs to be changed every 2,000 miles) oil cost per change $6 cost per year $12 ========= Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 blue jug synthetic $19 a gallon at Walmart -- thermal protection excellent -- needs to be changed once a year oil cost per change $10 cost per year $10 ========= Mobil 1 / Amisol / Klotz over $10 a quart -- thermal protection excellent -- needs to be changed once a year oil cost per change over $20 cost per year over $20 The point here is the blue jug Rotella Synthetic has the lowest cost per year. Even though white jug Rotella dino oil cost less per oil change you still have to do two of them so it winds up costing you more per year .... plus the extra filter cost and your time & aggravation factor |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by voldigicam on 08/19/09 at 12:15:20 Exactly. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/09 at 12:15:40 You bring up an interesting point which I have forgotten... How many miles can I run with for Mobil 1 / Amsoil / Klotz ? |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/09 at 18:20:31 Mobil 1 claims 5,000 miles for normal Mobil 1 and 15,000 miles for red cap "Extended". Red cap "Extended" meets the Savage requirements for ZDDP. So does Mobil 1 V-Twin motorcycle oil. Note: Mobil 1 normal car oil does not meet Savage ZDDP requirements. I could not see trying to run them for 15,000 miles any more than I could see shooting for 100,000 miles on a crankcase full of Rotella Synthetic. We ain't got a car and we ain't got a 10 micron or better by-pass type oil cleaner like them diesel boys use. Normal biker guys put about 5,000 miles a year on a bike, so synthetic oils should be good for a calender year for us, IF .... ..... if you run a super magnet on your oil filter to get your metallic bits out of the oil ..... if you will always dump it and change it out if you have a fuel contamination issue ..... if you use enough oil to "top off" the oil occasionally to keep your additive packages refreshed. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/19/09 at 18:22:14 I got Klotz mx4 15w50 coming tomorrow $14.25 a quart.I think a 650 single needs the best you can get,Cheap insurance. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/09 at 22:45:50 So with m1 I can go 5k miles currently change oil every other month, but in the heat of the summer it look like I burn a qt of RotSyn a week. I will pick up a gal of m1 and see how long it lasts. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/19/09 at 23:08:26 You use a quart of oil a week?? Where is it all going? You are doing a 50% weekly replacement ongoing, so you never need to change your oil. For you, a vital benefit of synthetic oils is that they do not smoke as badly as dino oils do when burned in the combustion process. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/20/09 at 07:41:37 I do have a small leak at the bottom somewhere. One drip will come off behind the kickstand only after running. Dry otherwise. I'll have to check the starter, everything else is clean. But I think most of it is going up in 80 mph smoke |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by serenity3743 on 08/20/09 at 08:22:17 4D5E4948575A5C5E550A3B0 wrote:
Hey, Verslagen, I think your drip is a bearing or seal behind the front pulley. I had that one time. It was an easy fix even when I was new to the bike. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by vhfkid on 08/20/09 at 08:37:01 74575F5D5E57575E493B0 wrote:
OF I have yet to read more of your performance with the larger magent.., I remember you posting with getting it. Please refresh my memory on the performance of the smaller magnet and the larger one. TNX VHFKID |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/20/09 at 08:48:12 7C6A7D6A61667B763C383B3C0F0 wrote:
Well, I needed to check the pulley torque anyhoo. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/20/09 at 15:04:30 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1197231468/0 is the tech thread for the supermagnet on the oil filter. Open this and look at the top and that will take you to the discussion thread that started it all. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by vhfkid on 08/20/09 at 15:43:27 I've read that post, before I posted before. I'll PM ya, as it's not really related to this thread. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/20/09 at 20:44:08 found the leak, it's the pass thru for the generator wires. leaks around the boot. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/20/09 at 21:28:00 RTV around rubber grommet? Or is it going past the wires themselves? You know if you stop that oil leak you are going to learn that you need new rings and valve seals, right? VHFKID, all questions are fair in love, war and during an oil war -- the super magnet original thread is referenced in the first few lines of the Tech Thread and it has all the detailed info in it on the smaller super magnet. It would work OK, just not as "absodarnlutely completely" as the big honker super magnet will do. Only point there is you plan to run synthetic oil for a year, you gotta deal with the ferrous metal dust that flows around in it or you may not be doing yourself a favor by keeping the oil around as long as it is technically good for. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/20/09 at 22:33:51 There was no RTV around the grommet, so I shoved some in there as best I could. If that don't work I'm gonna pull it off clean it up real good, polish it, seal it, and scratch it later. I hope it don't need rings and seals yet, only 10k on the engine so far. I'm gonna keep using the RotSyn till I confirm the fix then change for 20w50. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by vhfkid on 08/21/09 at 08:41:18 OF- you knew exactly where I was going. I got 3 qts. of mobil1 synth for $2.50 each (Walmart clearance) I went to 5 walmarts and only one still had them. I want to start running a syn., but was surpirsed at how much metal is not stopped by the filter. Please someone from EMGO or HIFLO make a 10 micron filter please!!! I'd love to run syn and have a great performing filter that traps ferrous and non ferrous material. And with normal prices about $8-9/qt. of mobil1 or whatever, I don't want to send the oil away just because of the particulates. At that price point I'd just run Rotella Dino, and change oil every 1-2K or when dirty. I'm not sold yet that the supermagnet and syn. will last a year without causing possible damage from non ferrous or other materials not caught in the filter or by the magnet. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/09 at 09:39:36 Been working on a super filter for at home filtering similar to what the BIG boys do. Have pump, hook ups, and external filter mount. Just need to decide on what oil and filter. For $23 you can get your oil analysed. 1st I'm gonna fix an oil leak, then install temp gage, an oil cooler and then log some temps. Just wondering if all this paperwork is worth it. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/21/09 at 11:18:51 The 20W-50 syn blend oil I'm using isn't down noticeably in the sight glass in 2000 miles. I don't think there are any full flow 10 micron filters for any car, truck, or motorcycle. Cold oil would never flow through it. 25 micron is more like it. In any case, neither original equipment nor aftermarket filter makers usually publicize the filtering efficiency of their filter media. OE filters are determined to be right for the engine by the engine design engineers. Aftermarket filters are reverse engineered from the OE filters. The main factors damaging engine oil will be either viscosity loss due to shearing of the viscosity index improvers or oxidation of the oil, mainly due to heat. The thinning from shearing and the thickening due to oxidation do not offset each other...the oil is damaged and doesn't protect as well. (The old fable that oil never wears out, it just gets dirty, is an old shade tree mechanic's tale. Oil does wear out at the molecular level by oxidation due to heat and nitration...chemical change caused by blow-by... and the essential additives become depleted and damaged. Most of the "dirt" in oil is from the breakdown of the oil and its constituents.) If the oil is visibly in bad shape, it is way past the time it should have been changed. Dark color alone doesn't count. The lab test, while overkill for our small oil quantities, is the only way to really tell. I use a niobium magnet. These do catch iron & steel particles so small that they pass through a good filter. These ferrous particles are abrasive, and catching them reduces long term engine wear. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/21/09 at 11:28:10 504354554A4741434817260 wrote:
Oil cooler is just what you need 150 degrees is pretty hot for oil ::) |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/09 at 11:37:53 check out the label http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/images/eabp90_250pxw.jpg |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/09 at 15:01:25 ok so here's my plan, suck the oil out the bottom with an external pump, filter it and feed it back in the fill port. A port will be permanently placed in the drain plug and routed to a convienent location with steel tube using an air hose quick connect. The filter will be an amsoil 2 micron bypass filter. The oil should be as pure as the driven snow afterwards being 98% effient and removing 40% of soot smaller than 1 micron. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by PTRider on 08/21/09 at 16:40:59 That Amsoil oil filter is a bypass element, not a full flow filter element. A bypass filter has very high resistance to flow due to its very fine filtration. In a bypass installation, 10% or less of the oil pump output is filtered and sent back to the sump--thus the name "bypass." The pressure drop through the filter is too great to have any of its oil go to the bearings. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/09 at 17:05:12 pt, you don't read very well do you. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Gort on 08/21/09 at 17:11:44 Inventive idea, Verslagen. Might we have pics of the fabrication when you've completed it? |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/09 at 17:20:09 certainly, it will be like something you can pay $500 now and go for it. So far the most expensive will be the filter. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by bill67 on 08/21/09 at 17:26:14 I think you need a license to refine oil. |
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Title: Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Post by Oldfeller on 08/22/09 at 02:23:28 Verslagen and I went through the thought analysis on bypass filtration and we each built a rig before coming to the reluctant conclusion that putting it in parallel with the Suzuki standard oil pump pathway to the head or to the transmission (using the oil pump itself to move the bypass flow only at higher pressure levels) was possibly not a good thing if a bypass pressure valve should stick, etc. If Verslagen is going for the simple fool proof external oil pump idea, good for him. I put my bypass unit away for storage, pending some brainstorm idea that made it feasible again. Your standard oil filters will filter somewhat "finer" the longer they stay in place. Non-metallic bits (clutch wear fibers and the like) get caught by the filter. Aluminum bits big enough to go though the EMCO filter are too fine and too soft to do our ball bearings any damage, they just get crushed finer and finer and finer each time they get caught in the works. Hard ferrous bits from gears, chains, etc. are the worrisome bits -- the supermagnet stops them both before and after paper filtration and it is strong enough to catch 90+% on the first pass -- do the math, all of it gets stopped within 3 trips through the filter system if you are using the large $14 super magnet. Those of us who use the super magnets can run a syn oil for a year without damaging our bikes at all. Syn Rotella or red cap Mobil 1 Syn oil is good for 15,000 miles easy by oil manufacturer's recommendation. Syn Rotella (backed up with a bypass filtration system) has been oil analysis tested for over 100,000 miles by diesel truck guys and it passed their analysis for that rather abusive usage. The oils are not going to be your failure point in running syn oil in a Savage for a one year drain interval. I rarely put 5,000 miles on a bike per year as I have two of them and my miles get split between them. I run a supermagnet on my oil filters and watch the amount of sludge it collects. There is less ferrous sludge on the magnet since I changed over to Syn Rotella, so I think less wear is going on compared to previous oils. But this could be some sort of "break in" effect, I admit that possibility exists as well. |
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