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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil Coooler /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1247791900 Message started by verslagen1 on 07/16/09 at 17:51:40 |
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Title: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/16/09 at 17:51:40 Oil ports: I really don't think there's much improvement in oil flow in tapping the filter pocket over using the suzuki given ports. They all go to the same place. There may be a difference, I don't think it's worth the effort. Now if you've seen the oil flow diagram that Savage greg posted, I reposted, lancer reposted, You'll see that the 2 threaded plugs can be pulled and oil will flow between them. If you plug the path between them, you'll get full flow. So there's 2 ports just waiting for a cooler. Oil cooler: Get yourself an SV650 oil cooler. I just picked up a SV1000 oil cooler, with oil lines, with the banjo bolts. I scored big time for $30. So I thought, the banjo bolts are the right size to fit in those 2 forementioned ports, but have different thread pitch. Aw chit! So if any of you know of any oil cooler banjo bolts that match our ports, let me know. My original though was to get a couple of adapters for those ports and run some oil line between them. That's still an option, cheap and easy to do. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/16/09 at 18:01:57 O.K. now, 1 how do you go about blocking the original path for full flow, and would you worry about oil taking too long to reach the top of the engine? 2 If you did it like Ed L and plumbed a return line in the side case but didn't block the original path for full flow how much oil flow and pressure are you splitting? 1/2 and 1/2 ? Is that a problem for engine longevity? 3 In your opinion is it better to use the two access ports suzuki provided? Thanks Seviersavage |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/16/09 at 18:03:54 O.K. I reread your original post and see one of my questions was answered sorry, Got too excited. How do you block the passageway? Sevier |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by thumperclone on 07/16/09 at 18:04:05 when i installed my oil temp gauge i searched high and low and couldnt find banjos to fit(one line from front port to temp sender)was goin to do the cooler thing..had a local machine shop fab me an adaptor $80.. not sure of the return port you are talkin about..others that have done this(cooler)mod drilled and tapped at the filter..i cant see a good return port where you wouldnt lose some up head lube pressure.. btw after using the temp gauge for 2 summers realised cooler is not needed..up to 100f some summer days and oil temp never got to the HOT part of the gauge..nother goog point for (dont want to start another oil thread debate! ::) amsoil. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/16/09 at 19:26:53 http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/images/Oil flow.jpg This is the proposed connection ports. And you can see the connecting port between them. You could counter bore this port and drop a plug in it that's trapped between the clutch cover and the case for full flow thru the cooler. Unless you're in an extreme climate or doing the dragon relentlessly, full flow shouldn't be necessary. Because of the direction change and the oil lines being a larger diameter, getting flow thru the cooler shouldn't be an issue. It's not the only point here to provide additional cooling, but additional volume as well. In my opinion, the cooler should be mounted low, even with the foot pegs. This means that when shut off the oil level isn't going to change. And air flow to the cylinder isn't blocked either. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Ed L. on 07/16/09 at 20:17:24 This looks like it would work the same as my set up. When first putting my cooler together I didn't realize that there was a return port on the right side of the engine. I would of gone for it instead of drilling and taping the side cover. It is easy to plug the internal passageway for complete flow thru the cooler or have the flow split. I'm getting 3/4 of a liter per minute thru the cooler at 1500 rpm which gives lots of cooling. Finding the fittings might be a problem. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/09 at 00:37:52 next time I'm idlin' next to a sv650, cover me. :o |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by thumperclone on 07/17/09 at 06:28:59 504354554A4741434817260 wrote:
ahh yes i remember this topic from awhile back the bottom port would be the hard banjo to find, me thinks a brass elbow may fit if frame clearance is there..i checked our town limited hydralic/hose suppliers with no sucess.. adaracing.com has a billet oil cooler kit for mini mx bikes,thats what i got for thumperclone when she had the race engine in her was going to adapt to suzi but no luck on the fittings |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/09 at 11:35:41 I remember something this morn... someone said these 2 ports have different threads. ;D That means I need to check the other plug. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by smokin_blue on 07/17/09 at 19:29:26 If you want fittings that work and are sweet try http://www.holley.com/division/Earls.asp for the US or for better help go to the UK site below is the page for banjobolts. http://www.earls.co.uk/earls/adapters/banjobolts.html and then find the US equivalent. I used them on my streetfighter and absolutely love them. You can find some decent prices through some industrial based web distributors when buying them. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/17/09 at 21:04:42 Verslagen, Do you have a parts bike? a way to check those two bolts? If your right about the one being M14 x 1.25 I couldn't find a banjo bolt that size, everything I found was M14 x 1.5 Sevier |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/09 at 22:30:20 In the lists of banjo bolts offered, I'm finding it often. I have a friend at work with several bikes that he races. He'll have a look at what he has too. The plugs are m12x1.25 and m14x1.25 The m12 is not hard to find, but the m14 is a b!tch. I traced it down to a triumph part. CAM FEED OIL PIPE BANJO BOLTS ... Triumph Daytona 900, Super III Motorcycle ( 171001874539 ) check the description when you order. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/23/09 at 09:33:28 Hey Verslagen, I got a sv650 cooler on ebay and ordered the M12 x 1.25 banjo bolts. All is here now and by swapping around the lines that came with the cooler I think It's going to fit with minimal trouble. My question is the banjo bolts I ordered fit loosely into the oil cooler fitting. The barrel of the bolt is a little small, seems the barrel is long enough but not fat enough ,using the crush washers you think I'll have any trouble? Sevier |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/23/09 at 16:41:57 I haven't order my banjo bolts yet, but that's exactly what I'm planning on. Just center as best you can. If need be, I can get a holy sleeve made. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/28/09 at 07:08:25 Verslagen, Do you think the bottom bolt, return port can be unscrewed without taking the clutch cover off? I guess I can find out but thought you might know. Sevier |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/09 at 11:47:21 2221343F32342326383D3D38303C22510 wrote:
The one I took off was sitting on the bench. So Idk, frame in the way? Also when serching for the banjo bolt, subaru TD04 keeps coming up as a hot word. And one hit has some really nice over sized holes in it. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 07/28/09 at 12:21:52 Yeah it looks like I might get less than 1/2 inch before frame gets in the way. I found banjo bolts locally but the hole was small. Didn't look like enough flow and also only one exit hole in the barrel so I put it on the drill press and have improved the flow rate quite a bit. I guess if I have to take off the clutch cover I'll just finally install my verslavery. Thanks Sevier |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/09 at 13:00:58 I'm going to go to Autozone and ask for it. May need to get one for the water coolant line of a subaru TD04 |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 08/06/09 at 21:22:53 I ordered a couple of these, just came in looks great. http://i10.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/26/4b/e510_35.JPG large cross drilled hole, large center hole. Much better than banjo's made for brakes. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200315834581&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT I'm going have a sleeve made to press on it to center it in the 14mm banjo fittings. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 08/09/09 at 07:15:50 Just saw this on ebay... http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/1/8/0/5/8/9/webimg/291612000_tp.jpg Looks like the sv650 banjo bolts are special, and might fit the case of the LS650. The straight ones looks like the ones that came with the sv1000 oil cooler. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by seviersavage on 08/09/09 at 07:50:10 Verslagen, Hey thanks for the link to those banjo bolts, they look better than what I came up with. I ordered two. If you figure out a bushing to center them let me know, or if you have some made I'd sure pay you for a couple. Seviersavage |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by mpescatori on 01/14/14 at 04:41:41 "In my opinion, the cooler should be mounted low, even with the foot pegs. This means that when shut off the oil level isn't going to change. And air flow to the cylinder isn't blocked either. " If I understand correctly, the danger is that with the oil cooler fitted too high up, the moment we kill the engine all the (hot) oil will drip down into the sump, overfilling it. We would then restart the engine with an overfilled sump (very bad for case pressure) and we don't know if the oil would even make its way back into the cooler (which is too high up, hence full of air) By fitting the oil cooler in line with or even lower than the oil sight window, the cooler would NOT empty into the sump, nor could the sump empty into the cooler... because it's already full ! ;D Did I get this right ? :) |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 01/14/14 at 07:13:36 Yes, you might have to add a tap to drain it during oil changes. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 01/15/14 at 10:13:10 I am not sure it is worth worrying about the oil draining back into the sump, as the amount of oil contained in a cooler for the Savage and the related plumbing is not going to be significant. I bet you won't have more than an extra pint in the whole cooling system. The only down side is that if the system does drain the oil out - until that oil is replaced......there is no oil flow to the cam. This should not be a problem as it will only take a few seconds for the refill, and the cam should have some oil in place from the last time it was run as long as you have not tipped the bike over on it's side and drained the oil out of the little recess beneath the cam lobes. This oil drain back situation occurs whenever our engine sits a long time even without the cooler, and the oil will drain from the passages in the cylinder, engine case and head and the oil pump has to refill those passages on start up (unless there is a check valve somewhere that I don't know about). You can get check valves for oil flow. Triumph motorcycles have problems where the wet sump oil tank can drain completely down into the sump - so they install a check valve to prevent this from happening. It would probably work fine in a cooler installation, as the Triumph passes all the oil through the valve by gravity when the engine is running, and the Triumph most likely pumps a lot more oil than the Savage. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anti-drain-wet-sump-ball-check-valve-with-window-3-8-oil-hose-Triumph-Norton-BSA-/201019334228 It would allow you to mount the cooler wherever you want and you don't have to worry about anything flowing back down through the oil pump and into the sump. You really don't need to worry about draining the cooler and lines during oil changes - the little bit of oil will not contaminate the new oil much. You also need to mount the cooler so that the flow enters the cooler at the bottom, and pushes the air out the top as it is filled with oil. If the oil enters the top - the air is not pushed out of the cooler and the oil will not flow properly, and the oil will just drip around the air bubbles and the cooler might restrict flow and it will not cool well. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by WD on 01/15/14 at 11:16:43 To heck with a cooler, somebody engineer a spin on oil filter conversion for these bikes. That miserable excuse they ship with is a bad design. Can't even change the filter without coating the frame rail and possibly the exhaust pipe in goo... way to go there Slopoki... bravo... Like draining the sump on a 390FE and coating your truck's front suspension in used motor oil... dumb idea... |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 01/15/14 at 11:23:23 3526620 wrote:
I always hated the Ford truck oil filter over the right side of the K member. There is no way to catch the oil in a pan.....as it drains into about 6 different streams off the frame! |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/16/14 at 06:06:39 Ive seen some grand designs..like the 87 F150 radiator drain. I even put a hose on the thing, but, buy the time fluid is comin out the drain, its also comin out from around the T-handle & goin everywhere. I never understood a horizontal oil filter. Thats just dumb, for several reasons. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 01/16/14 at 06:10:04 67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:
Yep.....You need to buy one of those little blue plastic swimming/wading pools that they make for kids......if you want to catch the anti-freeze coming out that drain and splashing all over the plastic shielding and frame. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by old_rider on 01/17/14 at 05:00:15 73484552434F545249414C53200 wrote:
Yep.....You need to buy one of those little blue plastic swimming/wading pools that they make for kids......if you want to catch the anti-freeze coming out that drain and splashing all over the plastic shielding and frame.[/quote] I just parked mine facing up hill, at an angle to the right, across a ditch, with a 2 1/2 gal bucket. Course I was 17 and didn't mind gettin' dirty. :) http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b471/Orphistle/IMAG0456.jpg |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/17/14 at 08:13:23 Yea, thats a great plan, but all I wanted to do was lower the radiator coolant level enough to be able to add back some 100% antifreeze. I was getting ready for a cold snap & it was only good down to 20*. This spring Ill drain it all & put new in, |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/09/14 at 01:14:22 Ok so I've got an oil cooler which I'm trying to fit. I got the m14x1.25 fitting and had to use an impact driver to get it out. Got a few questions: The return port is REALLY close to the frame. Although a banjo would fit in there, I can't see it being possible to get the banjo bolt in without removing engine? (and I'm not doing that). Can someone please advise? I was thinking, it would be way easier to take off the little oil-filter cover and drill a hole and put a hose fitting in there for the return.. ..and then I was thinking, why not just put a hose tail in place of the oil fill cap? Surely that would be the simplest solution. I was also thinking that if I use either of those two latter methods, then the return port under the frame would remain sealed, which should mean that the cooler gets full flow, yes? :-? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/14 at 08:18:20 362433242220272A27450 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/09/14 at 09:10:52 Verslagen, you have done extensive temperature work on the Savage using all the normal running conditions. If memory serves 350-400F degrees is a reasonable max "soak temperature" upon quickly stopping from full interstate speeds. (please correct the numbers if my memory fails me on the particulars) The engine ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES oil temperatures to get up over 250F degrees to boil off water condensation from the sump. Running the sump temperature significantly below 250F using an oil cooler to dump all the heat is a bad idea as you will never boil off the combustion byproduct water vapor that condenses in the sump. Highest temperatures Dave has ever seen on his Vapor rig (connected to a head bolt) was found creeping up a steep gravel switchback road up in the NC mountains. Dave can chip in with his actual numbers, I don't remember them except they were pretty high as the engines were straining and the air flow was just about nil. In all cases historically, the Savage does not have oil sludging/jelling issues or excessive sludge build up or carbon chunking or any of the other signs of excessive engine temperatures attacking the engine oil. In all cases, a good synthetic oil such as Rotella T-6 has proven to be completely temperature proof for any sort of abuse we have ever done to a Savage on our most abusive mountain runs (and some runs were pretty grueling). Indeed, no normal dino oil has ever failed on these runs either. Dave and others were using dino oil on that run with no evil done to the oil or engine. So, all this drives the question, why are you messing around with an oil cooler again? Both Verslagen and I have prototyped extensive oil filtration systems that did some remote cooling as well and we hit "can't get over them" issues with the very low oil pressure and flow rates that come from our oil pump not having any real pressure/volume to be able to split in half at low speed so as to to keep the head bearings properly lubricated. There are other issues associated with back flow valve start points and other items which make it hard to keep all that extra oil up in the cooler from going back down into the sump while the bike is parked. Ed L had these issues. He is one of the few Savagers who actually did put a oil cooler on his bike. I was behind him one time when his excess sump oil was exiting his airbox breather tube (it was oil mist everywhere for a whlle). Made a bit of a mess on my face shield it did. Your ideas as given out so far involve putting in a parallel pathway cooling system similar to Ed L's which will greatly reduce the idle speed oil flow and oil pressure to the head bearings. This is a bad idea on general head bearing lubrication principles and it will have all the temporary on start up sump overflow issues on top of it unless you can find them magical mythical very very low pressure shut off anti-backflow valves. :-? And all of it isn't necessary -- the Savage does not HAVE any real oil overheating problems to begin with. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/14 at 11:05:17 My temps were based on the oil filter cover and the head next to the cam bore plug using an IR temp gage. Oil filter cover is probably the low end of the temp cycle. Using new temp sensors I measure... Quote:
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5B4A5E47464A5958434A47472B0 wrote:
After going on a long ride today, I must give a more accurate measure of temp. The air temp today was 26C-78.8F and at a around town speed of 50KM-31MPH the head temp sat on 73C-163.4F. And at open road speed of 100KM-62MPH the head temp dropped and sat on 51C-123F. The temp that I provided yesterday was a reading from the max screen. eg. Highest speed, highest temp, etc. I did have it sitting in idle for ages which might account for the high temp. Some more useless info for those of you interested. I am happy with the purchase and find it interesting while riding to have this information at my fingertips. It too will help me be more vigilant about my head temp.[/quote] I think I recall breaking 300 and then some, can't find it though. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/09/14 at 12:20:01 Oldfeller; I'm supercharging my savage which is going to increase the heat significantly. So I hoped to fit an oil cooler as, pretty much, the only mod available to increase cooling. So are you saying that if I put an oil cooler in I'm going to upset the oil flow to the cam? This probably sounds retarded, but has anyone considered plumbing the cool oil from the cooler straight to a port in the head cover so it goes straight over the cam? I'm guessing it would take too much effort to pump it up there? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/09/14 at 14:52:25 Yes, we discussed this in the past at length and Verslagen and I actually figured out how to install an oil line fitting in the head itself. I have an oil fitting installed on my backup engine that feeds directly to the very last cam bearing on the internal oil passages. To make this oil cooling idea even start to work you need to use a custom gasket that totally blocks off the oil passage between the right hand oil filter/clutch cover housing and the main crank housing. This forces all oil flow and pressure to go out the oil testing port. This could provide full 100% low rpm oil pressure to your cam gallery through your exterior piping. Issue now becomes how do you feed all the interior transmission, crank and such like passages if you do this 100% out the test port trick? Provide proper oil pressure to them through exterior tubing and you are back into parallel pathways again pressure-wise. But you can use all the oil volume/pressure available running it through your cooler if you do the plumbing right. But there will be no large volume of flow through the oil cooler doing the trick this way, just what will exit through the cam clearances, crank shaft clearances and transmission flow clearances. You simply cannot move a large oil volume to "cool the oil" without lowering both oil flow and pressure to the critical internal areas AND the head area. Your oil pump is currently sized to JUST BARELY feed the internal needs with no deflection of the oil flow for any bulk cooling. ========================= Now, let's play with the ideas a little bit. You say supercharging, but do you really mean turbo charging? Some of your sketches seem to show a turbo, I think. Does your turbo require an oil feed and a return feed line? If it is a turbo, then you likely need to run a synthetic oil like T-6 anyway so the oil won't cook itself solid when you cut the engine off and the hot turbo sits with some static oil in it. If you are running T-6, then you don't need to do any special oil cooling anyway since the Savage at whatever temperature simply doesn't get nearly as hot as a turbo does. All big 16 wheeler engines have oil passage turbos on them and T-6 was built for that duty from the get go --- it doesn't care about turbo heat unless it goes way up past 550-600F. ========================= I investigated nitrous quite intensely at one point in time as it was the cheapest way to find an extra 25 hp. I determined that the Savage clutch couldn't take that extra 25 horse power without extra plates and stronger springs. The SV 650 uses the EXACT same steels and fiber plates that we do, just with two more fibers and steels in a slightly longer basket (same exact construction type, just longer for more plates). I also determined that the tranny would likely go next after the clutch was strengthened (considering the output shaft pulley splines as part of the tranny makes this just about a no brainer). I then noticed I was really trying (expensively and laboriously) to bump the Savage up to almost the performance level of a bone stock SV650, so I bought an SV650 and rode it for the most part of a year until I realized that a re-cammed OS high compression pistoned Savage was really enough bike for everything I ever needed. So, Dave and Lancer have actually built the bike I then envisioned and they can wax my butt at will on a straight away. To outdo them I would have to go nitrous now -- which means the clutch can't take it ...... etc. etc. etc. Next nugget is that riding with two of these known to be better bikes that I know can wax my butt at will, I still can run at the head of the pack as a pure willingness to put your butt on out there in the curvies is more important than hp. And the last little nugget for your happy meal is this one, Big Zuk can wax MY butt and all our butts at will on the mountain curvies (run slam away from everybody else) on a bone stock Savage ..... ::) ..... unless it is raining on us hard -- in which case Dave will ride MUCH more aggressively because it is really cold and nasty and he really really really really wants to get back to the cabin and get a nice hot shower .... And the driving rain keeps him from even reading his speedo so he doesn't even notice he's flying along at 75+ mph in the driving rain. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/09/14 at 16:19:51 Oldfeller; I'm most definitely supercharging. It's an interesting and different approach to performance and I'm almost there: http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/9knsd.jpg Superchargers don't get as hot as turbos so I don't have to worry about heat-soak and they are self cooled so I don't have to worry about heating up engine oil. However there will be heat produced from the power. Every extra hp will be an extra hp's worth of heat. I don't know what figures to expect but I'm aiming for a conservative boost level of around 6 or 7 psi and would like to think it will add around 20 - 30hp. My main concern was that because the savage is air-cooled that it might venture past what it's capable of cooling. Thus the oil cooler appeared, initially, to be a perfect solution. I'm not using Rotella. We do not have that product in New Zealand. I'm currently running Prenrite 100% PAO & Ester full synthetic SAE 10W-40 http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=7&id_subcateg=95&id_products=597 I plan to deal with the clutch fails later but are you saying the SV650 clutch is a direct replacement? Just wondering how did you determine that the stock clutch can't take an extra 25hp without actually trying it? So, it's starting to look like I'm better off NOT putting on the oil cooler after all to maintain full pressure and flow to the head? That is very disappointing news. :( |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/14 at 02:17:54 How did I determine the clutch would slip? Easy, they like to slip now as a stock engine if you give them the very least excuse (wrong push rod length, energy star oil, etc.). Mine (stock plates and springs) requires careful adjustment to not slip, and I only make 5-10 extra hp out of my modest mods. You are gonna likely need a better clutch, Barrett sells a kevlar one for the Savage with better springs in the package, and you can also pick up SV650 Barrett kevlar clutch pack on Ebay real cheap sometimes. Doing it that way gets you two extra spare plates and steels ..... Dave runs extra power EMCO Clutch springs in his clutch pack, making around 10-15 extra hp. Extra power springs put extra stress on the eccentric cam that actuates the clutch, which is a known failure point in stock engines. The SV 650 makes 74 hp and uses the same part numbers for fiber and steel plates as the Savage, but has 2 more steels and 2 more fibers in the same design basket (basket has longer ears though -- too long to fit under our cover). Since you are going to approach those hp numbers, guess what you may require to handle that extra hp and torque. Your Penrite full synthetic oil may well be good enough to run with NO extra cooling required -- it is a PAO full synthetic base stock after all. Sure, it will get hot under boost, but you don't run high boost all the time, so the oil can cool off during the lower rpm cruising periods. Going full boost supercharger, you are going to make more peak HP and torque than any of us have done so far, and I expect you will learn more about extra HP clutches and trannys that I currently know. ===================== I recommend you leave off the oil cooler for now, and see if the Penrite is heat proof to the same degree T-6 is. From what I have read about it it seems to be very similar to T-6 in intent. As much as you are going to stress that engine, I think you need full oil pressure and full oil flow to ALL the very stressed internal parts and I would not try to split your oil flow/pressure up to get some dubious oil cooling benefit. Let your PAO oil simply handle the heat, it can do it. Just monitor your oil temperature and see what it does. Congrats on the start of a very innovative build. :D Boys, we gots us a new Frankenstein engine getting ready to roar up off the table. This will make 3 frankie bikes out there --- Lancer's Rex, Dave's Pretty Baby and Savagebob's Supercharged Scoot. So far Dave's Pretty Baby is the only Frankie that has been "robust" and hasn't broken repeatedly. Rex has been down over the years more than he has been up, but then again he was the very first one and a lot of learning had to take place with him. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/10/14 at 12:36:06 I don't want to deviate from the thread topic.. but I'm interesting in your info on clutches. But I'm a bit confused, you're saying: "..and you can also pick up SV650 Barrett kevlar clutch pack on Ebay real cheap sometimes. Doing it that way gets you two extra spare plates and steels ....." "The SV 650 .. uses the same part numbers for fiber and steel plates as the Savage, but has 2 more steels and 2 more fibers -- too long to fit under our cover)" So you're saying you like to put 2 extra plates and steels into your stock clutch to increase it's performance. And you're also saying the SV650 uses the same components but they have 2 extra plates and steels but it doesn't fit. :-/ Sorry I don't quite follow? My clutch doesn't slip currently.. I was just going to get this running and deal with it if it becomes an issue. I've also read here about clutches and most positions (like yours) claim that clutch woes are simply fixed by pushrod changes? That said, the Barnett clutch looks like a good option. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 12:57:18 simple, the sv650 basket won't fit under the savage clutch cover. the disc's will fit in the savage clutch basket. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/10/14 at 13:04:38 Ah! I see. So which offers better performance? Putting SV650 clutch components into the Savage basket or a Barnett clutch set like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Barnett-clutch-kit-LS-650P-Savage-1995-11-5-1-frictions-5-Metals-Springs-/321302692932?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acf220444&vxp=mtr |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 16:00:19 that's a good price the parts are the same, you just can't use all the discs kevlar is better than stock. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/10/14 at 16:30:04 so you can run +2 extra OEM plates but with the Barnett you can't squeeze any extras in there? I thought I recall reading about someone who dremelled out some extra space in the cover to put +1 extra plate in. Also, what the story with the weak actuator lobe? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/14 at 17:20:58 "The SV 650 makes 74 hp and uses the same part numbers for fiber and steel plates as the Savage, but has 2 more steels and 2 more fibers in the same design basket (basket has longer ears though -- too long to fit under our cover)" Clear as mud, huh? All the steel and fiber plates from everybody are identical. Barrett same as Suzuki same as SV650 -- no difference dimensionally. Kevlar friction plates have a different friction material. The standard stock friction plates for the SV650 and the Savage is the exact same Suzuki part number using cork friction material. A clutch pack for SV650 has 7 plates, a clutch pack for the Savage has 5 plates You can't put the extra 2 plates FROM ANYBODY in a Savage basket (no room) Kevlar plates are better material friction-wise and the Barrett clutch springs are stronger. EMCO springs gave Dave some issues at first and required a resend from EMCO with corrected springs (ask him for the details as to how well they work). Well, I stirred the mud up some for you, is it any clearer ???? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/10/14 at 17:56:51 Ok, I've ordered a Barnett kit. If there is anything better or additional I can do than this let me know. We will see if it's going to hold :D I'm a bit worried about the actuator lobe breaking though.. I feel like we should be talking about clutches somewhere else than the oil-cooler thread. I'm disappointed that the oil-cooler mod is basically a no-go. Someone ought to put a caveat at the start of this thread before others go and buy SV650 oil coolers. I'm not going to risk the oil-cooler mod now as you suggest. Although, has anyone actually tested this or is it just theorising that a parallel pathway setup will starve the head? The factory oil currently flows to that port, through the bridge and back to the filter. I don't really understand why removing the bung and having it flow through a cooler and back again is doing to affect oil to the head? Oil is already flowing there? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 18:25:57 594B5C4B4D4F4845482A0 wrote:
I think you fail to understand because all the options you are spewing out. Using the factory ports, blocking/restricting the cover xover port, will not starve the head. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/10/14 at 19:03:14 I'm not meaning to spew out options.. ok so this is how I've read this conversation. 1. There is a oil cooler mod option using the factory ports. I was going to do this to add additional oil to the system and achieve some cooling effect. 2. There appears to be some discrepancy surrounding how adding a cooler to the factory ports might affect the low pressure/volume flow to the head. Oldfeller recommends NOT doing the cooler mod for this reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has actually fitted a cooler, and found this to be the case. Or is it just assumption that due to the already weak oil flow, adding more oil and a longer pathway (via the cooler) will impede oil flow to the head on startup and idle. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 19:27:34 Here's a sample... 2F3D2A3D3B393E333E5C0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 19:47:44 someone who's done it... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1155323497/0 |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/14 at 20:20:40 Ed tells us that he dumps his outbound oil from the cooler into the sump through a drilled passage into the top of the side case. Ed, it would be real nice to know if that elbow fitting goes down or over to the right. Got us some big time AssUME potential there, 'cause the pic of the clamped rubber hose looks like it goes straight down like a low pressure dump port. You mention dumping in your verbiage too. Gots to ask --- it makes a big difference, it does. Answer would be quite different if it elbows to the right into the high pressure feeder passage. PS this would be unfiltered oil if you did it that way. Ed also tells us that he is getting 3/4 of a liter per minute at 1,500 rpm through the cooler and down the dump passage. How did you measure this? Just took the hose off and let it flow into a jar? I bet the oil pressure is then likely quite low when doing this since the volume is quite high. http://p1.bikepics.com/2006%5C08%5C12%5Cbikepics-654677-full.jpg He doesn't say what his resulting oil pressure from his set up actually is when measured up at his head bearings, crank, tranny etc. It would be nice if Ed were to explain whatever trick he is using (another orifice perhaps???) to restrict the low pressure high flow side enough to give high enough pressure to correctly feed the cam bearings, etc. Suzuki uses a jet type orifice at the lead in to the tranny pathways to make sure the pressure upstream from that orifice is high enough to properly feed the plain aluminum cam bearings up in the head. That jet orifice was designed to work at the maximum pressure from the oil pump & at a controlled minimal volume of oil flow. Ed, is it still getting that as designed high input pressure, or is your parallel path system feeding it "something other than that"? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 20:44:07 77545C5E5D54545D4A380 wrote:
That fitting dumps into the oil filter cavity. Quote:
He ran the oil cooler out into a bucket. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/14 at 20:56:51 Did Ed block off the passageway from the crankcase to the side cover? Or did he leave a parallel path there? If he's feeding the oil filter housing then he is really using just whatever small volume of oil that can go up through the tranny orifice and the various clearances in head, tranny and crank as his total cooling volume. Good pressure, good bearing life, yes, but not much real flow volume for bulk cooling purposes. You understand that when he undid the hose and let it flow into a jar, he was venting off 100% of the entire system pressure and NOTHING was going to his bearings pressure/volume-wise while he was doing his volume test. His test method he used to get his 3/4 liter per minute maxed out his flow volume and gave up all his pressure. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/14 at 21:13:28 Feeding the oil filter cavity with ambient temperature oil is nice, but what temperature is that small volume of oil going to be when it gets around and over and up and over and across to the cam bearings? The castings are all at engine operating temperature, so I suspect the cooled oil is too by the time it gets up to the head. If he didn't block off that cases/cover passage, he has a 50/50 mixed bag of input oil temperatures actually feeding into the oil filter cavity. Half will be ambient air temp and half will be engine operating temperature. It all comes down to the same old quandary, to be safe you keep the pressure high (volume low) and get very very little effective cooling out of the rig. If you want a lot of real sump cooling effect, you need a separate high volume low pressure pump that just moves a ton of oil from the sump up through the cooler and back to the sump, circulating repeatedly. You do know the SV650 uses aimed oil jets to blast oil streams on the bottom side of the piston crown -- Suzuki calls it the "Suzuki oil jet cooling system" and they use it in all their high performance engines. I don't think the Savage has that "Suzuki oil jet cooling system" with the separate aimed oil nozzles and all -- we likely just use a slinger system that takes the post-use eccentric crank pin lube flow and slings it up to splash lube the piston and cylinder walls. Just splash lube, no intentional piston crown cooling. Supercharging and Nitrous will both overheat the center of the piston crown and we do have us a beer can sized piston dome to deal with .... ...... with it getting all hot and softening some in the middle ..... ::) bet the top ring groove area expands a whole bunch more than normal when boost is high, too |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/14 at 21:15:41 46675C4F2D030 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/11/14 at 08:17:06 This is the third time Verslagen and I have gone at the oil system. First few times were attempts to rig up long term oil filtration, I built one, he identified an oil furnace filter system that was superior (and if we could find oil pressure and volume enough, I'd buy one of his furnace filter rigs as you can just go buy the fine filter elements fairly cheaply). This time we went at it trying to find oil flow that was enough to cool something in any significant fashion. We re-hashed Ed's best effort looking for a clue but found that Ed simply was pushing only half his minuscule high pressure oil flow through his cooler and running it back into the filter cavity. Pressure safe up in the head, yes, but not effective at cooling anything in a significant way. So, unless Versy has another nugget to offer Savage Bob is on his own now. Yup, I think Savage Bob got the chance to learn a lot -- we spread out all the issues we have seen in making attempts at GO FAST and what you bump into once you get there. Bob is still saddled with his beer can big uncooled piston crown and the supercharging combustion heat. He could rig a alky/water mist system to lower combustion temperatures at the source ...... but that is extreme supercharger tech and he should go there to learn more about it. ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/11/14 at 12:41:35 As Ed says, at the least he has got an extra 3/4L oil capacity. So his motor has 3.25L of oil of which around 25% is in the oil cooler at any given time. I'd be surprised if this didn't make any significant difference. Most aftermarket oil cooler setups route the oil from the filter unit to the cooler and back to the filter unit again. So I'm not sure it matters where the cooled oil goes to specifically, it's all part of the overall capacity. Indeed the only way to tell would be to install an oil temp gauge and find out. Hopefully Ed might weigh in here to answer some questions. I'm certainly aware that my particular circumstances put me in relatively unknown territory. And I was hoping that the oil-cooler would be one of the measures I could take to help cope with increased heat levels. I'm banking on a conservative low-boost figure, high-octane fuel, cooler spark-plug and very high quality oil in a low-compression, low-rev engine will provide a setup which is more reliable and makes more power for less money than any big-piston/cam/high-comp n/a options. I'm certainly willing to put my engine on the line to find out. :D |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 02/11/14 at 13:05:04 Savagebob: I am not sure that you will really be making a bunch of heat. The majority of the time you will be riding around at a steady speed just like the rest of us. If we need 6 HP (just a guess) to motor around at 50 mph on level ground......my engine with a Wiseco and a cam or your motor with a supercharger are both going to be making the same amount of heat. You and I are both fighting the same resistance and have to make the same HP to overcome it.....so our throttle settings may be a bit different to accomplish it......but overall we are going to be moving similar amounts of air and fuel through the engine to maintain 50 mph. And if in fact you are not making a bunch of boost and running pressures that Premium Pump gas can handle.....even for short blasts down the block you are not going to be cranking out huge amounts of heat that are going to overwelm the stock cooling. Now if you decide you are going to be running 80 mph for hours at a time in 90 degree weather.....then....Huston - We have a problem. Until you prove the Supercharger is going to work, and that it is reliable and functional - I would not bother with the oil cooler at this point. My bike has no problem at sustained speeds below 60 and the head temperature stays between 250 - 280 degrees. If I start doing 65-75 mph sustained runds when chasing Oldfeller - the engine temperature approaches 300 degrees. On one 1st gear gravel road in the mountains when it was 90 degrees and humid I also got to 300 degrees. Keep your sustained speeds reasonable.....and you won't have a overheating problem. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/11/14 at 13:39:37 Thanks Dave, I agree, around town boost between traffic lights doesn't concern me. But more the highway travelling where there is likely to be sustained boost at around 120kmph / 80mph. Although the revs will be low and the air-cooling high.. Possibly what I should do is install a temp gauge in the head and monitor it compared to your figures. Where abouts did you put yours? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 02/11/14 at 18:10:59 I used a Trailtech Vapor speedo/tach unit, and it has a temperature gauge built in. The sender I used is supposed to go under the spark plug....but it would really be tough to mount it there on the Savage as the is no room. Instead I mounted the sensor under the nut and washer on the left rear cylinder stud. Other folks have used their temperature gauge as an oil temp monitor and they used that oil galley plug at the front that you have been eyeing for use with an oil cooler. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by verslagen1 on 02/11/14 at 18:26:35 Trail tech makes a gage that pretty reasonable and can be mounted anywhere as there are several sizes. http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Tech-Temperature-Mounting-665-0002/dp/B00BOSJTUO/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1392171876&sr=1-2&keywords=tto+temperature+gauge http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1361141824 |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/11/14 at 20:16:34 Yeah, Dave is right, we have abused the bikes as badly as anyone ever has and the stock cooling level actually is enough. I don't really count as a frankie bike as mine is a street sleeper -- looks exactly like Gandma's old worn out scoot -- wearing saddle bags and fugly discolored pipe and lots of wear on it. It looks just exactly like the absolute un-bearable totally intolerable ultimate male ego insult to a $20,000 Hurley guy that just got his butt passed on a mountain road. And what it does to $30,000 Ducati Monster owners all proud in their new leathers -- the shame should not even be described .... they won't even look at you when they see you in the cafeteria. ;) When my piston gets sloppy I will go with a larger piston and then I will have all the frankie parts to be a real frankie. Until then I will just be a slightly augmented old fool. ;D ;D ;D ;D Dave cheats, he has always used water cooling to keep his temps down whenever he actually lets his frankie off the leash .... And remember, MM has him a new Hurley for us to play with .... |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/11/14 at 23:13:35 1330383A393030392E5C0 wrote:
You can outrun Ducati Monsters on a Savage? ..wait.. whats that.. water cooling? Go on... do tell? 8-) |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 02/12/14 at 05:29:29 776572656361666B66040 wrote:
You can outrun Ducati Monsters on a Savage? ..wait.. whats that.. water cooling? Go on... do tell? 8-) [/quote] Oldfellor is pointing out that the only time I made a dash for the lead role......was in the pouring rain.....and I didn't have a front fender. On the Dragon excerusions we have passed Ducati's, lots of sport bikes, Harleys....and some really capable bikes with not so competent riders. And sometimes......some really good sport bike riders show us how it is supposed to be done! There really isn't a lot of need for big HP on the Dragon......30 HP is about all the power you haver room to use. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/12/14 at 09:02:09 By and large the best sport bike up in the mountains is any 600cc four cylinder state of the art sports bike ridden by a competent younger rider. They stay in second gear all the time and just wick it up and down and concentrate on hard on their late braking .... They got the brakes -- and they have 100 hp to wick up and down gently with their wrist. They balk whenever their front wheel goes up coming out of a turn or their rear end comes up (and jumps over) whenever late braking hard into a turn. This scares the shite out of me riding so close to the edge, so I will quit playing with them when they start to get erratic. I know a hurley can wreck low-side "safely" because of hitting hard on the frame, so I always pass them on the inside of whatever sort of turn we are on. Hurleys can just wreck themselves low-side in the next turn and go on about it, I am generally well past them on up the road at that point anyway. Litters the road some for the guys coming up behind though .... Sports bike guys can suddenly go sideways during braking and whack you with the rear end if you try to go outside them. Or re-point themselves right at you if you try to go on the inside and their butt rides up on hard braking or slides over due to too much throttle. And they can then EASILY accelerate right into you if they are mis-pointed some .... The good ones are just a flash in the rear-view mirror and whooosh they are on past you like you were sitting still. The good ones get a respectful nod for a job well done -- and we never make it easy for them. ===================== But that guy on the white goldwing gets my extra especial respect -- I have never ever passed him yet and the reverse is certainly not the case. He is vetty vetty vetty Gooooood with that goldwing ..... I make it as hard as I can but he still goes past me on my very first bobble. Best I have ever done is to hold him off for like 5 turns. I think he is the local dude with the current low time on the Dragon round trip run, up turn at the bridge turn and and come back down. ===================== That has got to be hell on the male ego, to have fat 'ol fluck on Granny's old single cylinder pass you, and then here come 3 others that do the exact same thing to you. Gots to rile you up some, it does. The only one that looked like he actually stopped looking for a fist-fight was the guy with the pretty girl in that little red European sports car. We had all passed him and a couple of other things after him and had gotten to the overlook and had gotten off the bikes and were taking off helmets when he screeched to a stop on the other side of the road and got out. Started walking across the street to us when he suddenly counted heads and saw what, four of us and only one of him? And we were grouped into a whole bunch of other bikers (always lots of bikers taking a bit of a breather at the top of the hill overlook). Odds certainly didn't look good fer him picking a fight with 15 bikers all turning to face him. Lancer and I had our helmets swinging loose from the chin strap in our right hands and Lancer always looks ready what with his bald head and scrappy demeanor. And MM was already laughing at him, what with him coming over to get his butt kicked yet again .... |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/12/14 at 11:54:40 I have no idea what the dragon is but man that sounds like a lot of fun. I'm picturing something like the Nurdburg ring up a hill where you can ride as fast as you want. So what's this about water cooling Oldfeller? |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Oldfeller on 02/12/14 at 12:09:56 Dave answered you himself about 3 posts up. Always make a habit of going back up to your last post and reading everything down from there. If you don't you'll miss stuff. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by Dave on 02/12/14 at 12:20:12 http://www.tailofthedragon.com/ |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by savagebob on 02/12/14 at 12:39:27 oh.. right.. the rain! LOL http://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2012/03/I-See-What-You-Did-There..png That Dragon run looks fantastic. Maybe one day I can go there. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by jcstokes on 02/12/14 at 22:18:35 SavageBob, looks like it's a lot longer than the ZIGZAG out of Cardrona. |
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Title: Re: Oil Coooler Post by LANCER on 02/13/14 at 03:55:06 Pull up the area on google earth for the satellite's view, magnify so you can see the details of the road, and follow the Dragon from Deal's Gap Motorcycle Resort to the end of the 11 mile run. It is an impressive road and quite a challenge to ride. TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT. ;) ;D 8-) |
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