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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Synthetic oil /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246199369 Message started by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 07:29:29 |
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Title: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 07:29:29 Hi guys. Newbiei here. Bought the wife a 2009 violet S40. She's got over 600 miles on it now and it's time for the first oil change. Is it a good idea to use a 10-40 full synthetic like Mobile 1 mx4t ? Mike |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by alcoa on 06/28/09 at 07:40:04 Yes you can , but it is a waste of money as the savage is meant to run on any good oil. i bought suzuki oil from my dealer plus oil filters and change my own oil and filter every 3000 miles. More smiles per miles you will get with this bike. welcome to the site. ;) |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 07:44:43 Thanks. Yes, I'm going down to the dealer today hoping that the oil filter is in stock and I don't have to wait for it. We're taking the bike out next Thursday for a long weekend run and I didn't think to get the filter early. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Gort on 06/28/09 at 09:20:00 The following material was submitted by Kwaknut, a member of this site who works at a high level in the oil industry. It explains why synthetic oils are superior to any non-synthetic in any engine. It is well worth your time to read it: "About synthetics: First, a lot of the myths about synthetics go back several decades when the original ‘synthetics’ were strange indeed, such as glycol based, and had very different properties to your normal mineral oil – there were problems with them attacking seals, they had disadvantages for every advantage, and you absolutely could not ix the with mineral oil. However, there are many kinds of synthetics. Modern polyalphaolefin ‘synthetics’ we use in retail automotive applications are not like that – they’re 100% compatible with mineral oils because they are the same compounds, just made in a purer way than nature can do it. What people fail to grasp is that these synthetics are chemically the same as mineral oils, just purer. Your average engine oil is made up of molecules each consisting about 30 carbon atoms, with obviously a few bits of oxygen and hydrogen thrown in. In a mineral oil, they are going to be in all sorts of shapes - think of it like the variation in shape you get with snowflakes. The odd one will just be a neat, perfect, straight carbon chain – but not many at all. Those others, the majority of randomly-shaped 30-weight molecules all have physical weaknesses, and ‘corners’ where other chemicals find it easier to react and attach. In your traditional mineral oil/liquefied dinosaur juice, it all starts out as one thick gloop that comes out of the ground and we fractionally distil it to get different ‘weights’ out at the refinery. The thin stuff goes in fuel tanks, the medium stuff is lube, and the thick stuff makes roads. Vacuum distillation separates the oils in to different weights of base stock – hence the 30-ish carbon molecule size in our oils. A true synthetic engine oil is polymerised – made up from C2 gas (ethane), to produce perfect straight carbon chains. They are chemically identical to the less smoothly shaped natural molecules, they have the same chemical formula, but they are far more stable, not just to oxidation and chemical breakdown, but to physical duress as well – in gear teeth under extreme pressure, those molecules just slip past each other rather than breaking each other’s arms off. That results in many advantages: The oil remains more stable, doesn’t break down as quickly, and lasts far longer in the sump; less friction heat is generated, the oil itself exerts less friction against the metal – so less wear; less energy is used to turn the machine because of that reduce friction – so you actually gain in power and economy. I could go on here. Think of the oil molecules as being like components that come off a rough production line. The very best items get inspected and put to one side for custom and aerospace applications – the rest goes into cheap mass production. Well, with these fully synthetic oils, it’s like every molecule you get is the individually inspected blueprinted component you’d get from a custom machine shop, while normal oils contain all the average stuff and all the rejects too. In short, it’s the same as mineral oil, but purer – much purer. Additives Engine oils contain a complex additive package. Key to internal combustion engines is the dispersant/detergent pack. The detergent coats metal surfaces to stop carbon waste products from adhering, while the dispersant is made up of little charged molecules which attach to small pieces of carbon and cause them to repel from each other – that way, the particles of suspended carbon (which are going to be there from fuel combustion and a little from oil burned on the bores whether you want it or not) always stay smaller than the oil film, and do not rub against your engine’s precious working surfaces. There are also anti-wear agents, similar to those used in gearboxes which are activated by the temperatures caused at local pressure points, and effectively put a protective chemical coat on the metal, and there are viscosity improvers, which are spiral molecules which expand when hot, helping to counteract the thinning of an oil with increased temperature. There are also emulsifying agents; their job is to trap water, in an emulsion, which allows the oil to absorb, safely, a certain amount of crankcase condensation or other moisture ingress. Synthetics do not have any ‘problems’ with condensation that other oils would not have, whatever anecdotal evidence may have been observed by the odd individual. Additives are important in engine oil – what we all need to remember is that you get what you pay for, and the good additive packs don’t go into cheap oil. The way those additives perform comes down to the additive pack, not the oil base stock (though a good base stock will need the assistance of the additives less than a poor one). Viscosity of synthetics: Firstly, what do we mean when we say 10W40 or 20W50? The first number, the W rating, says how thick the oil is at zero centigrade. The second number says how thick it is at 100 centigrade. You’ll notice that a mineral oil will probably be 15W40 or 20W50, while the synthetic can be 0W40 or 5W50. That’s because the synthetics have a flatter viscosity index – and that means that their viscosity varies less with temperature. That’s partly down to the expensive additive pack, partly lack of waxy impurities, but mostly the purity of the base stock. On a zero centigrade/32F cold morning, a 10W40 mineral oil will be the same thickness as a 10W50 synthetic – same pressure reading when you start up, and similar at room temperature. However, when it gets really cold, like -15C/5F or worse, your mineral oil gets really thick, because it just doesn’t like that cold, and until it warms up your engine struggles to pump it round – it can be several seconds on that kind of cold day before the top end gets any oil at all! With the synthetic, that flat viscosity index, and lack of waxy impurities, means that there is far, far less thickening when it gets really cold, and the oil still flows easily. You can test this yourself. Take an egg cup (or a smaller container) of Mobil 1, and of a similar W-rated mineral oil, and leave them in the deep freeze overnight. See how they pour in the morning. When it gets hot, obviously the reverse happens. The 5W50 synthetic is the same thickness as the 20W50 mineral oil at 100C, but when things go wrong the viscosity of the mineral oil drops right off, and it starts to evaporate too quickly off hot bores. The synthetic retains much more viscosity than the mineral oil, doesn’t evaporate off the bores as easily and remains far, far more resistant to thermal breakdown. In Europe GM launched a car called the Vauxhall Carlton some 20-odd years ago. Lotus had the contract to develop it from a 3-litre, 4-door saloon to be ‘quicker than a Ferrari Testarossa’. They achieved it, but struggled badly to get the 377bhp they needed from that 3 litre turbocharged engine (this was the 80s remember) because they couldn’t keep temperature down at the boost they needed, and the oil was boiling in the sump. The answer? Mobil1 5W50, and thick black print in the owner’s handbook not to use any other oil! Again, you can test it yourself. Place a teaspoon each of 20W50 mineral oil and 5W50 synthetic in a baking tray in a hot oven, and see how they take the heat (best to do this when the mrs is out) You’ll always here people come out with stories of how they’ve had problems with synthetic oil. What they can rarely tell you is whether they’d have had the same problem with mineral oil, or if they just hadn’t noticed up to the point they changed the oil! Lots of people will continue to resist the expertise of some pretty clever people who develop these products for the oil companies, and go with the advice of the mechanic at their local bar who wouldn’t even trust synthetic oil in his lawnmower. He’s like a fellow in my local pub who won’t wear a seatbelt in case he can’t duck to one side when a truck full of scaffolding poles gets spilled over his hood – he’d get skewered if he wore his belt, so he’s convinced that it’s safer to drive without a seat belt on. I doubt he really has to worry about being run through by scaffolding poles, and I just hope he doesn’t have a regular crash." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 09:43:08 Actually the Mobile 1 is the one I was going to buy. There's another called Amsoil but you can only get it online. This makes me a tad skeptical. Anyone have any experience with Amsoil? |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by bill67 on 06/28/09 at 09:46:48 Because of the wet clutch its should be a motorcycle oil,Not just regular Mobile 1 |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 10:01:07 Yes, the Mobile 1 mx4t is synthetic motorcycle oil. My local cycle gear has it on sale right now! |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by photojoe on 06/28/09 at 15:37:14 Just gave my bike it's first full synth oil change w/filter last week. Went with Mobil 1 v-twin 20-50 for the summer months. I've been using Mobil 1 10-30 for my Audi for years, and the odometer stopped working at 190,000 miles, probably about 10,000 miles ago. No smoke and I beat the living crap out of that car. Figure if it's good enough for the Audi, it's good enough for the Savage. It was cheap enough at Auto zone at $9.00 a quart. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by oksavage on 06/28/09 at 17:52:46 make sure everything is tight because that synthetic stuff is slippery and will find a place to drip if it can |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by 12Bravo on 06/28/09 at 18:37:44 0A3F30303B2C6D6F6B6B5E0 wrote:
My local shop carries Amsoil and that is what I use in my bike. It is pricey but good stuff. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by bill67 on 06/28/09 at 18:41:41 I would run it more miles than 500-600 miles before going to Synthetic to be sure its broke in good.At lease 1200 miles or so. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by gazoo07 on 06/28/09 at 18:45:44 62575858534405070303360 wrote:
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/28/09 at 19:08:25 I did buy the Mobil 1 synthetic. I got the filter from the local dealer and installed both a couple hours ago. Took the bike for a spin and everything seems fine. I'll inspect for leaks in the morning. I'm afraid to tighten it too much and strip it. If it leaks I'll tighten a little more. I put a new o ring in too. Next time I'll try the Amsoil. The Mobile 1 was expensive enough. $9 a quart on sale down from $12 a quart. Ouch! How often do you guys change your oil? every 3000? |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by PTRider on 06/29/09 at 10:34:42 The oil I'd absolutely avoid is any non-synthetic automotive 10W-40. Motorcycle 10W-40 is too expensive, and I'd rather use a 50 wt in the summer. I have a comment about the synthetic oil posting in the technical section. Amsoil is very good but over priced and over hyped in my opinion. I know, opinions are like a------s; everybody has one and all but mine stink. For our engines I'd choose a dual-rated 15W-40 diesel & gasoline engine oil; Conoco/Phillips/76/Kendall is my current favorite. Or a synthetic 5W-40 diesel engine oil. Or a 20W-50 oil listed on the label as suitable for motorcycles with wet clutches and engine oil lubed transmissions, or a synthetic xW-50 version with the same label info. For about $5 you can get an excellent HiFloFiltro #HF137 oil filter at a non-Suzuki shop. I believe they make the motorcycle oil filters for K&N. 3000 miles is OK for oil changes, but I'd do it at 2k if you're using less than the very best quality oil due to the shearing of the oil in the gear teeth or if the oil is getting very hot in your climate. For sure do an oil change before you put the cycle away for the winter. The appropriate Mobil 1 is one of the very best. Mobile is a city in Alabama. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by odvelasc on 06/29/09 at 10:43:27 I am using synth just because my girlfriend bought me it a couple months ago and I dropped it in not noticing. Aparently there is no going back. I figure, if there is less wear on the bike than awesome. Ever since swapping carbs for a vm carb I am a little harder on the throttle. So, figure I better use better lube. I dont notice any performance inmprovements, however a colleague with a ninja 650R has noticed a difference in his performance. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Balderdash on 06/29/09 at 10:51:12 I've been using AMSOIL or MOBIL1 (motorcycle only oil for both brands of course or the clutch will slip) for the last 3 years. The reason I'm posting is because I don't think I have to switch weights for winter drving when using the synthetic and a garage kept bike (unheated garage). I discovered that I have no problem with the 20-50 weight even when it's cold out side, I drive until the weather is 24F, after that it's too cold for me but the bike still starts and runs fine. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by photojoe on 06/29/09 at 10:59:22 I've been changing my oil around every 1000-1200 miles or so. Never bothered me changing the oil, it only takes about 30 minutes or less to do. At under $20, and a bit more with a filter, it's the cheapest insurance I can buy, especially with a 22 year old bike. It cost twice that much to fill my car with gas every week, on the company's dime of course ;) I used a sieve for the old oil when I changed it last week. Not a piece of metal to be found anywhere. I check for fuel smell also. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by gazoo07 on 06/29/09 at 13:09:53 5A51435059544656350 wrote:
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/09 at 16:53:33 You might want to research with the Search engine looking for ZDP, or ZDDP and additive packages and tappets to discover why you need to be very particular about the oil that you do use in your Savage. The Savage cam system operates with flat tappets which used to be common in most engines. Oils used to carry additive packages for this need, all oils sold had the ZDP, ZDDP or zinc phosphorus anti-galling compounds in them in appreciable quantities, even the cheapest oils had it. Flat tappet engines had to have it, so oil makers put it in all oils. ZDP/ZDDP was great stuff to stop the galling, but it unfortunately it was discovered that ZDP/ZDDP killed 2nd generation catalytic converters and so it was phased out of all car only auto oils in the last 5 years. Roller tappets are now required in engines now because roller tappets can survive without ZDDP and all new engines have roller tappets or shim and bucket tappets in them for this reason. The Savage engine does not. It has 1950-1960 style flat tappets, plain chunks of metal that are held to a fairly soft condition on purpose by the manufacturer so they take any wear and leave the cam lobes sitting up high & proud. Flat tappets require ZDP or ZDDP in the oil for a decent engine service life (as does our cam chain, BTW). 12-13 PPM is the least amount of ZDP/ZDDP an oil should have in it for Savage use. Here is an extreme example of what the lack of a proper ZDDP additive package in normal car engine oils can look like if you run your engine with a modern normal 10W40 car motor oil for years and years and years. Ugly, ain't it? We see lots of shades of this nonsense when we tear down the top end of our Savages (and so will you if you don't get smart about the oil you use) http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/flat_tappets.JPG To not have this happen to you, you can either pay $10 a quart for a really good premium motorcycle oil (which action makes you sorta wealthy and kinda dumb) or you can use a good diesel oil such as Rotella T 15w40 or Rotella 5w40 Synthetic which DOES HAVE the ZDDP package in them that you need for your Savage. You can buy this stuff by the gallon ($11 to $19 per gallon) at Walmart. This is a "inexpensive good oil" for your Savage. Or you can buy all the expensive crap mentioned earlier in this thread (IF you will bother to read the label to find out if it has the right amount of ZDDP in it what you need -- some of the stuff mentioned earlier does not have it). =============== And guys, truly what you really need to do is learn how to do is use the search function here on the list and read up on a subject a bit before offering a bunch of opinions that might get acted upon by someone with a brand new motorcycle. =============== Also, be aware that what follows is called "an oil war". Be nice and try to make your points intelligently and support them with something other more substantial than "they said" -- oil wars do have honorable rules of conduct. And don't forget to tell each other about the energy star on the oil bottle and what it means for clutch slippage in the Savage clutch .... ;) Oldfeller |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/29/09 at 19:00:03 I'm going to put it in my Kawi er6n (ninja without fairings) next. My wife got the good stuff first. Thanks everybody for all the info. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Skid Mark on 06/29/09 at 19:46:25 Thanks Oldfeller: I copied your Rotella info to my bike notes and will be looking for it at Walmart. A fella desn't mind paying $8-$10 for a quart for piece of mind, but if you can get the same piece of mind cheaper, why not. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Tanner on 06/29/09 at 20:53:42 Here here! |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by PTRider on 06/30/09 at 10:39:18 The phosphorus in the zinc dialkyldithiopohsphate poisons catalytic converters. The amount in car engine oils is now limited to 0.08%, and will stay at 0.08% under the upcoming new spec (ILSAC GF-5) due out in a year or two. It previously was 0.1%. Other additives in oil do the same job, but they cost more and don't do the double duty as an antioxidant that ZDDP does. Engine oil is about 75 to 80% base oil and about 20 to 25% additive package. This is the mixture of detergents, dispersants, anti foamants, antioxidants, anti wear agents, friction modifiers, corrosion inhibitors, viscosity index improvers, pour point depressants, dye, etc. The phosphorus limit in diesel engine oils is .12%. Any of the diesel engine oils will do a fine job, as will any motorcycle oil. Shell's Rotella-T line is one of many very good diesel engine oils. One of the main problems with 10W-40 oil is the viscosity spread they're trying to achieve. To get a cold-to-hot spread that great with conventional oil they need to add a lot of a polymer called viscosity index improvers. These are plastic bits that change shape when heated. They make the oil thicken so it passes the hot viscosity test, but then slim down when cold so it also passes the cold viscosity test. These do not lubricate; they just take up space in the oil. The cheaper ones break down (shear) so they do no good at all. I'd never use conventional 10W-40 oil in any engine.* Specifications for diesel CJ-4 engine oil (http://www.infineum.com/information/api_tables/Heavy%20Duty%20Diesel%20Engine%20Test%20Category%20For%20API%20CJ-4%20-%202008.pdf) Specifications for gasoline SM engine oil (http://www.infineum.com/information/api_tables/Passenger%20Car%20Engine%20Test%20Category%20For%20API%20SM%20-%202008.pdf) Note test sequence IV-A for cam wear and sequence VIII for bearing wear limits. These are bench tests of actual engines running specified sequences to test for wear. The previous two specs, SJ & SL, allowed more cam wear (http://www.infineum.com/information/api_tables/Passenger%20Car%20Engine%20Test%20Category%20For%20API%20SJ%20And%20SL%20-%202008.pdf), but was a slightly different test on an engine not presently in production. *Why does Suzuki recommend 10W-40? (1) we don't know the chemical specs in the oil blended for their label, (2) they are in the business of selling spare parts and new motorcycles... :o |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by AngloSaxon on 06/30/09 at 11:32:54 Cheers for the info Oldfeller, and the scary pictures....I'm gonna have nightmares now. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by PTRider on 06/30/09 at 16:49:50 Here is a very informative article from Penrite, an Australian oil company, about zinc in oil: http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?navlink=Zinc%20in%20Engine%20Oils There have been a number of articles and we have heard comments from various “expert” commentators regarding the more recent API specifications and their impact on older petrol engined vehicles. Unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information out there and also contradictory information as to what can and cannot be used in older vehicles. The focus has been on zinc, or more correctly, ZDTP (zinc di-thiophosphate). For many years this has been the anti wear additive of choice as it is the most cost effective (and one of the most effective) chemistry to use. Also incorrectly described as an extreme pressure additive, its primary role is to prevent wear in the rings and in the valve train (cams, tappets, valve stems etc) of the engine. When you add ZDTP you also add phosphorus. This is a catalyst poison and there have been limits on it since the days of API SH (1994) when a 0.12% limit was imposed. Prior to that, in the days of API SG (1989) many manufacturers already had put a 0.10% limit on phosphorus. So, “low” phosphorus has been with us for quite some time. In effect, an engine oil that contains about 0.1% phosphorus or higher, will easily provide the required anti wear properties for older engines and in fact ones at around 0.07% will do the job very nicely. ---more in the link--- |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by bill67 on 06/30/09 at 17:41:37 Suzuki says use 10w 40w oil so your motor burns up so the next time you buy a motorcycle it want be a Suzuki ::) |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by SV og LS on 07/01/09 at 01:19:06 74736C3F0 wrote:
This makes sense as Savage top end problems have been documented long time ago, far before current engine oils. If anyone wants I can e-mail a scan of Motorrad magazine long term test published in 1991 together with official Suzuki explanation. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by ls650v on 07/01/09 at 03:28:09 Oldfeller, Aren't those pictures of an engine that had an oil delivery problem? To equate an oil delivery problem with the lack of ZDP in oil is absurd. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by gazoo07 on 07/01/09 at 04:05:53 293673707533450 wrote:
If it is damaged from oil starvation he really is right on both counts. If it wasnt getting any oil it certainly wasnt getting any ZDP LMAO Gazoo |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by bill67 on 07/01/09 at 04:24:24 There was some one here who bought a stock S40 with 53000 miles on it,He must of never run it low on oil.Because the S40 uses more oil than most bikes it get run low more often. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Oldfeller on 07/01/09 at 04:52:21 LS650v, yes, these pics ARE from an engine that had an oil delivery problem, yes this is so and you are correct. I was lazy and got called out for it and that is also correct. Thank you for the comment, I will replace the pics with more appropriate ones (if they are still available). Frankly, it was late and I was lazy, I had these pics on my local PC so I used them. I should have searched out the pics used earlier by other folks to show the same issues. Let me get a little unlazy and go try to find them now. Lets, see, search engine -- tappet zdp zddp This thread has a pic of same issue in another flat tappet vehicle, but this too could be seen as exaggerated. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1214085990/14#14 http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j233/4carbcorvair/66Corsa135.jpg ========== What the f--- ?? Where are all our LS650 tappet follower pictures? ========== Houston, we have a problem. Tech and rebuild posts contained in older threads have lost their pictures due to Photobucket dumping all the older pictures. The pics I am wanting aren't there any more. ========== Who has Savage Greg's CD ?? -- it has some good pics of tappet wear from bikes he worked on. You would have to transfer the pic to a net picture hosting site and and then post it. ========== Here is a bit of raw gasoline to dump on your budding oil war fire ... (this is the shot of raw gasoline) ”Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the "ZDP equivalent" additive level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines. Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.“ (this is the response from the muscle car group) I do not believe that anyone who has spent time investigating this situation would say that the new oils had insufficient EP characteristics for ALL flat tappet engines, especially low-performance engines. As a matter of fact, the number of oils with API certification proves that low-performance flat-tappet engines can pass the Sequence III tests with acceptable wear. Our study of the ASTM test sequences IIIE, IIIF, IIIG, IVA and VE required to achieve API certification reveal that NONE were developed using high-performance engines. Indeed, these tests were developed using relatively low-performance engines intended to model average current and emerging vehicle engine wear characteristics. This makes sense considering that the purpose of the ILSAC/API specifications is to provide a standard set of performance criteria for oil to be used in new over-the-road automobiles and trucks. The standards are not intended to infer any degree of backwards compatibility with older or specialty engines. While investigating the amount of ZDDP needed to protect engines Olree stated: “Arguing that modern oils should pass tests developed 25 years ago to protect engines built 30 years ago is a rather useless exercise ”. Since he is studying the situation from the perspective of designing the lubrication for the next generation of motors, we see his perspective for making such a statement. In doing so he is acknowledging that the test is not specifically designed to quantify oil’s performance with older engines. Unfortunately, “those” engines are the ones we enthusiasts run and care about. At AMI our automotive group has 60 years of experience collectively with GM flat tappet engines. In all of this experience, the recent failures of stock cams and lifters due to severe wear is unprecedented. It is this experience as well as supporting reports from others we spoke to that made us try to find out the nature of the problem first hand. After preliminarily concluding that the low ZDDP levels in SL oils were the culprit for the wear we were seeing, we tried to obtain enough ZDDP for our own vehicles. We soon found out that major oil companies and additive manufacturers do not sell small quantities, and buying a large quantity is expensive! When others people in car clubs asked to buy ZDDP with us as well, we finally were able to put together enough justification to place an order. This is how we first found ourselves in the business of selling a ZDDP supplement. It is our belief that there is no overt movement in the oil industry to create new oils that are bad for older engines as some conspiracy theorists may speculate. There certainly IS a movement in the oil industry to create new oils which are tailored to the specifications and requirements primarily of newer cars, and secondarily of older vehicles. This does not mean that they are concerned at all with 30 years old muscle cars. To the automotive industry an OLD car is 10 years old. The cars we care about are invisible to the OEM industry. While we have great faith in the engineering behind the new oils, we also notice that backwards compatibility with 100% of old engines is not on the product spec sheet. The oil manufacturers obviously know of the importance of the ZDDP to older flat tappet engines, as many of them are steering owners of these engines toward their ZDDP formulated diesel oil line, showing they acknowledge the possible need for higher levels of ZDDP in these engines. http://www.aa1car.com/library/camshaft_worn_lobes.jpg The lobes on this 289 Ford Mustang flat tappet cam suffered excessive wear because the motor oil did not contain adequate levels of ZDDP anti-scuff additive. If you are driving an older classic muscle car or hot rod that has an engine with a flat tappet camshaft, you should be aware of the fact that today's "SM" rated motor oils contain much lower levels of anti-scuff additive called "ZDDP" (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate). The level of ZDDP in current motor oils has been reduced to no more than 0.08% phosphorus to extend the life of the catalytic converter. Phosphorus can contaminate the catalyst over time if the engine uses oil, causing an increase in tailpipe emissions. The lower ZDDP content is not harmful to late model engines with roller lifters or followers because the loads are much lower on the camshaft lobes. But on pushrod engines with flat tappet cams, the level of ZDDP may be inadequate to prevent cam lobe and lifter wear. In some cases, cam failures have occurred in as little as a few thousand miles of driving! This is even more of a risk in engines if stiffer valve springs and/or higher lift rocker arms are used. To avoid such problems, you should add a ZDDP additive to the crankcase, or use an oil that meets the previous "SL" service rating, or use diesel motor oil or racing oil that contains adequate levels of ZDDP to protect the camshaft and lifters. If you are installing a new camshaft in the engine, be sure to use the cam manufacturers assembly lube and follow the recommended break-in procedure. But you will still need to add ZDDP to the crankcase or use an oil that contains adequate levels of ZDDP for continued protection. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Rogue_Cheddar on 07/01/09 at 10:09:26 I've been using Amsoil 20-50 for 3 years now, no issues at all, on my '95. About 12,000 miles with it. I have more confidence with it on hot days stuck in traffic. Local dealers run about $10 a quart. |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by PTRider on 07/01/09 at 14:06:24 All the Amsoil oils have very high ZDDP, much higher than the industry standards. ZDDP is depleted as the engine operates. Amsoil claims their very long oil drain intervals (25k or 1-yr) partly due to their high level of ZDDP so some will remain active in the oil as depletion occurs over this long mileage. Amsoil is made with very low volatility so little gets into auto catalytic converts. I'm not promoting Amsoil...I feel it is very good but over hyped and over priced. When I said that other products did the job of ZDDP, but at a higher price, I should have included some of these such as Antimony dialkyldithiocarbamate, some of the Organomolybdenum complex of organic esters including Molybdenum Trialkyldithiocarbamate (MoTDC), overbased calcium compounds, and some borate compounds, among others. ZDDP and MoTDC work especially well together. I looked at some motorcycle oil labels in a shop yesterday. All were blended to the obsolete API Service Catetory SG. Basically that means that they can have whatever amount of ZDDP that the maker choses to include. So, bottom line, use any dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine oil, 15W-40 or syn 5W-40, with .12% phosphorus, or use a motorcycle oil. The auto oils that do not carry the ILSAC GF-4 label can have more than 0.8% phosphorus, but we do not know exactly what they do have unless the oil blender tells us either on a data sheet or through a communication. These auto oils include the so-called oil for high mileage engines and the automobile grades 10W-40 & 20W-50 as well as single grade oils. A "racing" oil probably does have high zinc, but some have a short service life. Also, the oil blender must state that the oil is OK for motorcycle wet clutches and transmissions, something like, "---is recommended for use in all 4-cycle air-cooled or water-cooled motorcycle engines. ---- can also used in those motorcycles that have a common sump for the engine and transmission." |
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Title: Re: Synthetic oil Post by Oldfeller on 07/02/09 at 07:29:01 And digesting all of the above info down into a simple easy to remember recommendation for something you can buy relatively cheaply by the gallon at Walmart is: Rotella T 15w40 dino oil in the white jug (triple protection label preferred) $11 per gallon Rotella T 5w40 Synthetic oil in the blue jug (extreme high temp protection) $19 per gallon And as always, changing your oil frequently is the very cheapest and best way to keep it from needing expensive repair work. |
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