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Message started by David M Smith on 06/24/09 at 08:32:52

Title: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 06/24/09 at 08:32:52

Hey again. I feel bad always asking questions and not being able to answer many. But I have only had my Savage for about a year. I'm slowly learning and hopefully soon I will be able to help others a little more.
Anyway here are my story, problems and the symptoms:

Last year I bought my 87 Savage. The tank was a little rusted as far as I could see and the outside around the fuel cap was damaged I assume do to fuel leakage or spilllage. I had the tank painted and I recoated the inside. I cleaned and refitted the petcock. After I connected everything back up it started right up. I was proud of myself lol. But then a few days later it just didn't want to start. I checked and noticed the battery was low and charged it.t didn't want to keep a charge of more than about 50% overnight. So I replaced the battery with a new sealed one. It started turning over much faster and better but still didn't start. I ended up taking it to a mechanic to check out. He said he gave it a general tune up and replaced the plugs, changed the oil, checked the breaks and cleaned out the carb bowl which he said was fairly clean.
For about 3 weeks I rode it around for short distances with not much trouble. I did notice it seemed to surge once and a while at 40-60mph cruising but nothing bad. So last weekend I took it out for my first medium distance ride which "would have" been about an 1-2 hour ride at average 55mph. After about 20 minutes of cruising I down shifted to a stop on a country road and it shut down. It didn't sputter or cough at all. It just shut down at the stop. I was a little worried but it started right back up without much trouble. I road another 10 minutes and it shut down again at another stop. This time it wouldn't start back up. I checked everything I could with no tools. (yes I know I need a tool kit). I noticed the battery terminals were hot and the cables seemed loose. However I can't be certain whether they were hot from a problem with the loose cables or other electrical problem or just from turning it over while trying to restart.
I ended up calling family and pushing the bike about 2 miles into the closest town. Let it sit under a shade tree for about 4 hours and then came back and tried to restart. It REALLY tried but didn't catch. Yesterday I checked what I could with my tools at home. First I wanted to check the carb bowl so i went to drain it. Placed the petcock on FUEL which I'm fairly certain is equivalent to off on the vacuum type petcocks.(FUEL/PRI/RES) Then I unscrewed the carb drain screw. . . I'm guessing a pint came out and didn't seem to want to stop. I'm guessing this isn't normal! I tried both the RES and PRI settings and it kept coming. But I was at least happy it was flowing and didn't seem to be dirty. So I left it alone for now.
I went back to that loose negative battery terminal. I went to unscrew it and it didn't seem to want to come off. Apparently it had been cross threaded so well that I ended up breaking off the screw. . Luckily I have a brother who runs a machine shop and this morning he fixed it up for me. Tonight I will reattach the battery and secure those terminals and see what happens.
However with these 2 items and the tests I've done I still don't know what my issues could be or if one or both of those could cause my problems. Below are my personal ideas.

- Fouled plug due to "full on" petcock?
- Float issues due to "full on" petcock?
- Bad fuel/air mix due to battery connection possibly causing firing or timing problems?

Help! Any other ideas are welcome and thanks for you wisdom!
Dave

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Skid Mark on 06/24/09 at 15:45:33

Do a process of elimination.
Get the battery right, and see if problem persists.
If it still persists I'd look at the fuel valve ( sounds better than pet thingy). It's vaccuum opertated and there may be issues with the vac line or diaphram. Or there coild be crud in it. It seems the easy fix for vac issues is replacing with a Raptor pet thingy as it eliminates the vaccuum actuation. You just have to remember to turn it off when stopped.
Hopeful it will be one of these 2 thing, otherwise you may have carb problems.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Gort on 06/24/09 at 16:56:46

What did you use to clean out the inside of the tank, and what did you coat it with?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 06/25/09 at 05:15:59

I used a KBS small tank 3 part coating kit.

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Auto-Fuel-Tank-Sealer-Kit_p_7-34.html

UPDATE: OK last night I got my battery back and reinstalled it fine. Tighter connections. No problem. I tried to start it and it had a lot of trouble but it did start with a lot of throttle. It would get going with the choke all the way in but if I tried to pull it out to half or full it died. I could keep it going but only giving it a lot of throttle. If I let it try and drop down to idle speed it stopped. It also seemed to be putting out a little black smoke, but not a lot. I checked the oil and it didn't look or smell like fuel, but I'm a novice there so I may just not know exactly where to look or what I'm looking for. I also re-checked my petcock settings and once again the gas won't stop flowing no matter what setting it's on. I checked the air filter and compartment and it didn't seem to have a heavy fuel smell so it looked good.
Any ideas?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 06/25/09 at 16:39:32

You're flooding out, might want to change out the petcock, sounds like it's boogered.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Topher on 06/26/09 at 20:59:24

Some of this sounds awfully familiar. See Trouble Diagnosing Stutter, http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1245782493/0#12. Not that I have an answer there, but some more talk.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 06/29/09 at 06:11:36

Well here is another update. Last Wednesday I opened up the carb bowl and the pilot jet was lying in the bowl. So I tried to screw it back in with the carb still attached. That night it started and ran better than it had since I've had it. The next day I was riding in town and stupid me was apparently running on Reserve from the testing the day before. I ran it totally out of gas. Went and got gas, tried to start it back up and no luck.
Got it home, took off the carb bowl again and it was loose again. I don't think I had it in there correctly the first time since I was trying to fudge it and screw it in upside down without removing the carb. So I decided I just needed to take the whole thing off and give it a thorough cleaning and check everything.
I have run into one possible issue that I want to get a second visual opinion on though before putting it all back together. It looks to me like there may be a small chunk of something in one of the tubes but I can't tell because it's at one of the turns in the tube. I blew some compressed air in there and when on most of the tubes it seems to come straight out easily on the other end, the air going through this tube seems to be a little "rough" coming out the other end. Not sure if this may just be because of the turns in the line. The problem is if there IS something lodged in there, how to get it out safely. If it's a chuck of the tank sealer it's hardened to a tough little piece of metal.

Otherwise the carb looks clean. Diaphragms look good. Battery is good, Plug is good. Seems to turn over well. Air filter is clean and getting no backup of fuel. The non-stop petcock will need to be checked out I'm sure. trying to decide what to do there.
If there is no chunk in there then I will need to check into other possibilities for the problems.

Thanks

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Joshua on 06/29/09 at 08:23:55

I'm no mechanic but it sounds similar to problems I was having with flooding. I haven't replaced my petcock yet as I put some seafoam in it to clean it out and now my petcock shuts off when on fuel, it didn't before. As far as cleaning the hole out you might try a piece of wire from a wire brush. Also, have you checked to make sure the float is at the right height? That was part of my problem too.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by serenity3743 on 07/01/09 at 08:53:55

On top of the petcock, inside the tank, there is a narrow tall screen which is the only stock fuel filter on the Savage/S40. Is that screen in place? If so, what does it look like? If torn or rusty looking, your problem likely stems from the rusted tank and dirty gas not flowing well.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by serowbot on 07/01/09 at 09:42:24

You have diagnosed the petcock as a problem. Now you have to fix it.
Forget the carb and battery, and fix the petcock.
Then, you can correct any other problems. The petcock problem will mess up any further diagnoses of any other problems.
So fix that one first.
Options are to replace with new, convert to manual, or replace with alternative (Yamaha Raptor 660 manual petcock. Convert is cheapest but most difficult, Raptor is easiest, stock replacement is easy but expensive.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/01/09 at 09:49:48

Answer to last question and another update.

When I re-sealed the tank during the winter I took the screen filter off and thoroughly cleaned it. I also put in an in line fuel filter about a month ago between the thingy and the carb.

I dropped the carb off last night with an auto instructor who is taking a look at the area where I thought I may have seen an obstruction. However the more I think about it the more I think there probably isn't a piece in there large enough to cause such an obstruction.
If he says it's fine and clean, then my next step before putting it all back together for further testing will be to replace that petcock. However I did check the float height and it seemed to be about 2.5 mm too high. I made an adjustment down from 30.5 to about 28. Could this possibly have anything to do with the petcock vacuum failing?

Thanks

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by serowbot on 07/01/09 at 10:14:50

Nope,...
The petcock is a vacuum operated unit. Failure comes from the vac diaphragm in the petcock either tearing and leaking, creating a flooding situation, or not getting vacuum, creating a starvation.
Have you checked the vac line?.... There should be absolutely zero gas in it. None at all!... If there is gas there, your petcock diaphragm is torn. The vac line is the one on the right side of the carb with a spring covering it.
If there is no gas there whatsoever, you are not getting vacuum up to the petcock,.. replace the vac line and clamp it securely at both ends...
My guess, with fuel flowing in all postions, is the diaphragm is torn.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/01/09 at 10:33:28

So I'm guessing instead of opening up the petcock and checking I'm better off finding a Raptor and just going with it? If I go that route is it something I can just grab used? I see them on Ebay and other sites used. Since there aren't any real screwy parts inside the Raptor I'm guessing that as long as the used one is clean there shouldn't be any problems?

Thanks

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by serowbot on 07/01/09 at 10:39:03

A used one may weep a bit, from old rubber, but if you can save a good amount... New seals are $4 to $6...
New is of course better. $20 + shipping, probably $30 total
http://www.ronayers.com/browseparts.cfm?SearchString=5LP-24500-01-00&adv=5&kw=fiche.ronayers.com
The Raptor is an easy bolt on fix. You will have to cap off the vac line at the carb. I put a screw in it.... rubber caps will rot away every couple of months and cause a vacuum leak.
As a bonus,... going to the Raptor makes tank removal much easier too. No more wiggle jiggle... ;D

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/01/09 at 10:48:16

Awesome thanks. I did have a very small very slow leak when i put the original petcock back on after the tank seal. I just used a tiny amount of liquid gasket and it sealed right up. Just put a little on my finger and actually wiped a thin layer on there. Probably do the same on the Raptor.
I'll see what the guy says about the carb. Put it all back together. Replace the petcock and see what happens.

Thanks again everyone for the ideas and advice. For someone that knows almost nothing about engines it's a great thing to be able to go at it and have people to back you up on those little questions. I'm learning things here and on my bike that will benefit me for a long time!

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Digger on 07/07/09 at 20:51:51

David,

Here's a test for to check if your petcock diaphragm is leaking fuel into the intake manifold:

Crimp the petcock vacuum line so that nothing can get through it.

Select PRI on your petcock and ride the bike. If it runs good like that, you most likely have a leak in the petcock diaphragm that allows gas to leak directly into the intake manifold, causing a rich condition.

You can ride it like this, but don't forget to select ON or RES on the petcock before walking away from the bike.

Report back up w/ your findings, please - good luck!

IHTH!

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Digger on 07/07/09 at 20:55:06

697F68756D78756E1A0 wrote:

....You will have to cap off the vac line at the carb. I put a screw in it.... rubber caps will rot away every couple of months and cause a vacuum leak.....

Good tip.

Here is another way to cheaply plug the carb's vacuum port:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/CarbVacuumPortPlugE.jpg

I just snipped off a section of the OEM vacuum line, squeezed some silicone sealant into it, folded it over and secured it with two small zip-ties.

IHTH!

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 08:39:48

Ok so I installed the new petcock. Got my carb back from the guy doing the thorough cleaning and reinstalled everything. I did end up just using a screw with some liquid gasket to plug the vacuum line. Now it IS up and running but it's running like it's at almost full throttle when it's idling. When I give it some throttle it doesn't seem to change much other than a little sputtering. Does that mean I've got something a little screwy inside the carb that's allowing too much through? When I reinstalled the jets I just screwed them in snug but not overly tight as it seemed that's the way they were in there before.

Thanks

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 10:48:08

Just another little update with symptoms. I tried adjusting the idle mixture with no change. I tried squirting some starter fluid around the carb and around the air intake with no change. It just seems like it's getting too much fuel. I feel like it's something silly I'm just missing now. It still has no change when I open up the throttle also. Choke seems to have very little or no effect. It starts great and fast but it just runs hard and stays that way.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by Serowbot on 07/08/09 at 11:02:23

I know I'm wrong,... but the symptom sounds like the petcock fuel line is routed to the vacuum tap on the carb instead of the fuel. Fuel is on the left/shifter side,... vacuum is on the right/ brake side.

O.k.,... with that said, and not the problem, you have something very wrong in the carb, or the throttle cable is stuck or miss adjusted...

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 13:57:54

Hehe yea I'm a newb but I do have the fuel going to the fuel line. And i double checked to make sure the vac line is the one I plugged. I have the manual so I can find most parts and triple check them. But obviously the manual doesn't go into the stuff they don't think you should be messing with.
I've played with the throttle cable a little and it seems to sitting correctly. It just doesn't add anything to the mix when I give it throttle. I tweaked the idle speed up and down a little and it changed a tiny tiny bit but not by much. I'm guessing as you said. Something i did inside the carb that's leaving it stuck wide or almost wide open. But after riding it before I know it's not full open. If i had to guess I'd say it feels stuck somewhere around 30-50%.
The only rel CHANGES I can think of that I introduced was cleaning the carb which wasn't really that dirty when checked and lowering the float height about 2mm.Which from what I understand would actually close it earlier and not force it to give more fuel??
May be time to take it to a professional. Hate to pay it but I want it to ride this summer!

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/08/09 at 14:04:28

check the cable, did you push it all the way into the socket?

does it return all the way to the stop?

Next, open the top of the carb, make sure the spring is properly installed in the slide.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 14:27:41

The throttle does return to the stop. It idles on the stop but it's just idling high.

Ok here is another tidbit. I took off the top of the ca to check the spring and it seemed to sit correctly centered up to the top of the carb. However after i put the top back on and tried starting it it seemed to idle a little lower and I was able to give it some throttle and raise and lower the rpm. Felt like it idles closer to 10-20% and I was able to raise it to 50-60%.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/08/09 at 15:24:15

Take the air cleaner boot off and check the slide does it open easily?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 15:39:11

Not sure I understand your instructions. Do you just mean remove the carb from the boot and check how easily it slides off the boot? Or do you mean check the slide in the carb?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/08/09 at 16:21:53

sorry
take the boot off the carb from the air cleaner side.
reach in with your finger and check the slide action.
is it smooth?
is it sticky?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 16:43:11

Smooth and moves easily.However now it doesn't seem to want to start at all. It was like this just before taking the boot off and then back on also so I don't think that's an issue. I pulled the plug again just now and it's black again but doesn't seem wet.
Could I be looking at multiple problems that are throwing me these different symptoms? I've heard possible valve issues or timing? maybe these combines with not being able to correctly tune the carb is giving me these symptom changes off and on.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/08/09 at 19:37:36

Looks like with it running so hard and so rich while testing I killed the spark plug. That's obviously why it won't start now and could be part of some of the other issues. I'll grab a couple new ones tomorrow and start testing again. I know I need to get that fuel flow down or I'll keep fowling the plugs. The new petcock will stop the fuel filling it up while it's not running and I can figure out if there is a problem somewhere else.
Had my mechanic friend take a look at the carb tonight and said everything seemed to be in order as far as he could tell but without it starting he can't get a better diagnosis. So more tomorrow.
Thanks again.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/08/09 at 20:31:05

262F31777277420 wrote:

Unless it sounds like someone dropped a pocket full of change in there shouldn't be the cam chain or timing. Leaving the boot off or taking the air filter off should solve an overly rich condition. Here's a question for you... did you see the jets? are they loose or did he forget to put them in? Drop the bowl and take a peek. see what number it is too.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/09/09 at 05:11:20

Tonight I'll replace the plug and see what happens.

Before I took apart and cleaned the carb I have found the pilot jet sitting in the bowl when it first shut down on me during a long ride. But after cleaning I screwed it back in snug as well as the other jets. I did not check the numbers on them but they "looked" like the ones shown in photos and in the manual and were very clean.
I replaced the petcock with the Raptor with a clean tank filter and added an in-line filter between the petcock and the carb. So I don't think anything has gone into the newly cleaned carb and clogged it but it's always a possibility.
If replacing the plug gets me running again I'll try and tune the carb a little better and see what happens. If I'm still dying out at low throttle or stuck at half throttle going up I'll pull the carb again and do a check. If it's still clean I'm going to have to take it in to a professional. However I may have a long time mechanic/teacher coming over this evening to fiddle and diagnose with me. He's the type who can usually listen to an engine and tell you exactly what's wrong with it and he has experience with older bikes.
I realize you guys may have been able to help me out a little more with a video so next time I'll find a place to upload a video and link it here.
I'll let you know what happens tonight.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by furious70 on 07/09/09 at 14:04:43

sounds like you may have had something physically bound up in the carb the last time, bout the only way you could get a runaway condition like that. If it starts up and runs away from you again, try taking off the throttle cable just to make sure you're at the idle stop, and back the idle screw out until it dies. If it won't die the slider about has to be stuck up a little bit....

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/09/09 at 17:49:46

OK I replaced the plug and it started right up and idles great. However now it's stuttering around 60-0% throttle. I pulled the air filter and it will then raise up to about 80-90% but stutters heavily. The exaust has a heavy fuel smell. it's not getting air correctly?? or spuratically?
I went ahead and ordered a new filter but it seems that it's still more than that. I tried the mix screw back and forth but it didn't give me much in either direction. Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/09 at 18:07:18

sounds like you're too rich, send me your money or jet down a bit.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/09/09 at 18:19:24

So now I'm trying to guess why this would be flowing too rich now though. At least enough to run this badly. A month ago it was running "ok". Although the only time i took it out for more than 20 minutes it died on me.
So do you figure the new petcock combined with a clean carb is now allowing it to run better and now it's getting too much fuel? So i need to lower the jet? Since it's running great on idle do you think I just need the main jet changed?

Thanks

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/09 at 18:46:05

yep, that's what I'd do.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by David M Smith on 07/09/09 at 19:01:44

Ok well I know there are tons of posts about re-jetting but I'm trying to look at the manual and figure out which one I need. The manual shows that there are 3 different carb types? but they are all BS40SS ?? Are those 3 just different full setups for the bike?
Also in the Main Jet line it has SC17 and I've tried internet searches for that and I'm coming up with nothing. However on the Mikni website:

http://www.psep.biz/store/mikuni_main_jet.htm

They show plenty of them and that leaves me with a new questions. So i need the small hex or the large round and how would you tell? I'm guessing those 2 because they are the only two with the 155. I'm almost positive the one on there now is round but I'm just trying to learn WHY these are different and not just do it because the book says so.
Last little question. Should I move down to the 150 and maybe grab a 145 just in case?

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Starting and running issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/09 at 19:11:42

I'd get a full set from lancer, cause that's what I did.
And I'd go down one or two sizes.
They come in 2.5 increments.
But of course you still don't know what jet is in the carb.
Just a round one, with numbers, you think.
Who knows, the one you got maybe drilled out.