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Message started by BurnPgh on 05/21/09 at 00:19:47

Title: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/21/09 at 00:19:47

Thought it was the plug leak but...My next guess is piston rings. What else may be causing me to lose oil?

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by SV og LS on 05/21/09 at 01:12:17

I would say valve seals more likely than rings. How much does it sip oil?

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by Reelthing on 05/21/09 at 04:48:53

yep, how much oil does it use, is the missing oil just gone or all over the engine or ground, how many miles, whats your runs like - say extended freeway speeds or just thump'n around town?

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/21/09 at 10:29:21

Little over 17k mi now. The oil seems to just vanish. None on the ground and aside from some slight seeping along either side of the crankcase its not on the engine anywhere. The seeping im certain isnt the issue. I ride 50/50 highway/around town. I top it off of the low level line every 700mi or so. But I've got a chain conversion so probably closer to 800 mi. So...half a mL per mile or so. Let my buddy take a ride the other day and he's a little heavy handed. Hard take off and a saw a puff of gray smoke for a sec. Other than that one puff and oil vanishing ive got no clues.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by SV og LS on 05/21/09 at 11:00:27

I wouldn't be too concerned. It's a low mileage bike so there shouldn't be any mentionable engine wear and 400 ml per 800 miles is not unheard of. The worst our bike did was 900ml during a long day and it didn't noticeably smoke.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by dr1445 on 05/21/09 at 12:17:41

valve guide or valve seals would lead to a nice dense cloud of blue smoke when you start the bike. a broken piston ring can lead to blow by to the case, pushing oil out the breather. check your airbox plug and see if there is any excess oil in there.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/21/09 at 14:18:23

no excess oil in the airbox.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by dr1445 on 05/21/09 at 17:56:40

seems to be the nature of the beast, maybe try some synthetic oil on the next oil change.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/09 at 21:04:21

I have a small leak at the clutch actuator arm where it passes thru the clutch cover, so I lose a tad there. But, the thing doesnt use oil much till I get to more than 1,500 miles on the oil. The usage speeds up the more miles I get on the oil. Then I change it & it slows waay on down again. I dont look at the odometer to decide when to change oil. When the thing starts using it fast enough to make me uncomfortable, I dump it out & start over.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/26/09 at 10:45:31

Are there any symptoms that would indicated specifically whether the oil loss is piston rings vs valve guides/seals ?

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 11:38:02

7A4D4A56685F50380 wrote:

Are there any symptoms that would indicated specifically whether the oil loss is piston rings vs valve guides/seals ?

you already saw the diagnostic clue... your pal's cloud on the hard take-off... intake valve seals... a pint per 1000 miles is far from excessive, and the fix would require pulling the head.... id keep a close eye on consumption, and if it gets worse, then do the guides and seals (as required).... the curse of engines designed for unleaded gas

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by bill67 on 05/26/09 at 12:20:11

This is one of the only jap bikes I've had that uses a little oil between changes.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/26/09 at 12:33:13

eh...its a little more than a little oil loss i think. 1/2ml a mile seems a bit much to me and i intend to be traveling once fall starts setting in. 4-600mi in a day is what i project so Id rather not run to the low level line every other day. Oil costs would add up mighty quick in that case.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 13:30:55

5B6C6B77497E71190 wrote:

then it's time for a valve job... have you decarbonized the piston and combustion chamber lately? if you scrape the ring of carbon at the top of the cylinder bore, and/or the one that forms at the side of the pistion where it meets the crown, you can start consuming oil... the problem sounds like valve seals, and your observation when your pal rode it confirms it, but i like to eliminate all other options before ordering parts... if you noticed it start soon after a decarbon job, you might have scraped the "good carbon" along with the bad...

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 13:36:21

717A7F7F2524130 wrote:

This is one of the only jap bikes I've had that uses a little oil between changes.

low revs+long stroke=lots more time with the valves seeing vacuum, so more opportunity to creep past the seal... the breather for the crankcase is far from ideal, also... also only 3 rings on a long, wide piston...

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by Stimpy on 05/26/09 at 18:54:45

Hi there!
I have THE SAME problem :D

1997, 9k miles, 3rd owner, surely bike was abused/overheated in the past.

- 1st of all, my oil gets dirty (jet black) quite fast after an oil change
- Mine consumes about 1 quart every 300 miles or so
- it consumes more than that at constant highway speeds
- My mild, black puff of smoke manifests itself WHILE DECELERATING
- it too smokes a bit when breaking w/ engine.
- I also have not fixed the plug cap leak. Leaks a bit, just a bit.

All of this quite common and many savages.

Pretty sure it's our valve seals (you'll need 4 of them @ about
$2 USD/ea.) I'll change mine soon and document the process,
will post pics soon ;) ...ADVICE ANYONE?

Keep in touch w/ur findings.
Richard P.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/26/09 at 21:33:45

have not done any real engine work unless you count fixing the plug leak. Im looking at the fiche on bikebandit and am having trouble locating what part(s) i need exactly. #'s 2 and 3 are valve guides, #4 says "valve guide rin". Is that what im looking for, #4? Also, considering I havent had a look inside yet to see exactly what the problem is would you recommend I replace the valve guides as well just in case? In such a case I should order 2 #2s and 2 #3s correct?

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 21:40:06

05223F3B262F560 wrote:

sorry stimpy, your's sounds like rings... lots of blow-by... though it could be totally lunched exhaust guides and seals dirtying your oil, and intakes with the same problem eating it.... pull the exhaust valve lash adjusting cap, and see if it's nasty sooty carbony on the inside... if it looks like your exhausts interior, the exhaust seals and guides are way far gone... if relatively "clean"(just normal interior abused motor funk), then it be da rings, boss....lol

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 21:50:10

6453544876414E260 wrote:

id say hold off on ordering anything until you tear it down, and check the parts... could be the guides are perfect, and you need a valve(worn stem), maybe just seals, maybe everything... it may be more economically feasible to just get a head and cover from ebay...changing guides in one of these doesnt look particularly easy, or quick.... drifting a bronze guide out of an iron chevy head is tons easier than aluminum... if you plan on DIYing it, id be inclined to have the guides pulled and installed at an auto machine shop... expensive compared to you and a punch... if you're going to have a mechanic do it, then the labor cost really balloons... best to see what kind and how bad the fleas on the dog are, before you decide whether to use spray or dip.... ;)

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/26/09 at 22:06:20

Sound advice, but not quite my style. Id be without a bike for at least a week and as summer is right around the corner i dont think i can psychologically handle that. Hypothetically, I have to replace all of it, am i correct in the part numbers and quantities? What else may I need to get? Id rather just spend the money, get it all, and have some part i didnt need laying around for a later time. I do plan on doing it myself, but not until right before intend to hit the road. Say early-mid August. As long as Im having at it I intend also to replace the cam chain with one of the nitrided ones the old heads ordered here a while back (assuming there are any left) and the cam chain guides as well. Im just wanting to take care of it all in one swoop if possible so i dont have to keep taking the bike apart (i got one of the ones where you gotta remove the engine to do head work.) and so I can have it apart (once preferably) for as short a time as possible.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by Stimpy on 05/26/09 at 22:12:25

Yup, rings too ::) , I already bought everything for the job,
but I'm still waiting for the valve seals and guides in the mail.

You are looking for a small rubber tube and its guide that goes
around the valves, look here (parts 35 & 36 in "camshaft - valve"):
http://www.bikebandit.com/suzuki-motorcycle-ls650pv-savage-1997/o/m6329

Thanks marshall, I've learned to live with the problem for
over 3 years but it's time to open that engine and replace
a couple of parts; I'll post a photo thread as soon as I pop
that sucker open.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by ineclipse on 05/26/09 at 22:21:48

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=227367&title=Daily/Colbert---Keyboard-Cat
that could do it.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 22:30:26

5562657947707F170 wrote:

yup, numbers 2 and 3 of the head fiche is the guides... you'll need 2 each of those, and 4 of number 4 (those are guide seals)... and 4 of number 37 on the camshaft-valves fiche(those are the valve seals).. i used the 95 fiche, as i dont know your year...

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by BurnPgh on 05/26/09 at 23:02:50

lucky geuss. She's a '95.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by verslagen1 on 05/26/09 at 23:03:21

The gasket kit made by athena (italian) has these seals in it.

You can find it on fleabay.

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by marshall13 on 05/26/09 at 23:06:43

0334332F112629410 wrote:

lucky geuss. She's a '95.

now if only i could do that with lotto....

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by Digger on 06/29/09 at 21:18:04

484346461C1D2A0 wrote:

This is one of the only jap bikes I've had that uses a little oil between changes.

My bike (see signature) just hit 10,100 miles. I just drained oil that had been in there for 2700 miles.

I could not see that it had burned any oil during that time.

I think these engines will push a little oil if you fill them to the top of the sight glass....I just fill mine to the middle of the sight glass.

Works for me!

Title: Re: Oil loss
Post by gerald.hughes on 06/29/09 at 21:24:39

Just a thought. This is a large, air-cooled single. It will use oil. Some of it goes out the exhaust, but a fair amount goes out the breather as a result of the turbulence that the engine produces in the oil. (literally vaporizes it. ( Have you checked the breather drain tube? I generally find a tablespoon or so there at oil changes.) If you have not noticed a decline in your gas mileage, and the bike seems to run ok, just relax. Oil is relatively cheap. When it gets down, put some in. No problem. It is not worth the worry.