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Message started by DocNeedles on 05/04/09 at 21:08:27

Title: Am I going overboard?
Post by DocNeedles on 05/04/09 at 21:08:27

A friend who is quite a mechanic and fabricator suggested that with my head cap bolts and holes it would be good to use a bottom tap to clean out the holes and then use "Never Seize" so that the bolts will not freeze in the future. Being naive I bought a bottom tap taking in a head cover bolt to ensure I got the right one. The guy at the Napa dealer said that a nut fitted on to both, even though I pointed out that it was quarter inch while the bike was metric. When I went to screw in the bottom tap it would not connect with the threads so I didn't push it and would appreciate some expert advice.
DocNeedles

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by marshall13 on 05/04/09 at 21:44:09

cleaning up thread holes in iron is a good idea, aluminum, not so much... dont use a 1/4 inch tap, no matter what the napa guy told you.. threads in aluminum are often roll tapped, not cut... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Gort on 05/04/09 at 21:51:10

I always use anti-seize for assembly of dis-similar metals. Here is Loctite's offerings:

http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productlisting.html?ProductLineID=23&VendorID=155&SubcategoryID=105&Tab=vendors

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/04/09 at 22:40:43

yes, clean with nylon brush and anti-seize is a must.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Wolf on 05/05/09 at 06:24:31

:-?

ahhhhh... any anti seize that is less $$$ ... and where would I use ths stuff?

Wolf :-/

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Gort on 05/05/09 at 06:52:08

Dis-similar metals can 'gaul' ( little bits of the metal break loose from the softer metal) when threaded parts are disassembled. You would use it on steel threads being threaded into aluminum parts, for example. I've seen examples of sparkplugs removed from aluminum heads, having tiny bits of the aluminum head threads broken off into the sparkplug's steel threads. As for less expensive anti-size, you can buy the Loctite for $4.00. Do an internet search like I just did:

http://www.retrocycle.com/CustomChromeParts/14193/Loctite_AntiSeize_Lubricant.html#top

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Savage_Amusement on 05/05/09 at 06:52:43

Anywhere there are threads and unlike metals touching (is the theory). Saves us a ton of time at work, as long as someone actually uses it. Makes for quick work on bikes and cars too.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by prechermike on 05/05/09 at 07:02:17

Doc

I think it is really "never seeze" and I am guessing it is a brand name. I have never seen a can with a lable on it. All I have seen is what guys already have in their shops and the label is long since gone. I asked once about buying a can for my own use and people tell me not to, they will give me all I need, I will never use all I have. After my father in law died, I found maybe a pint size can of the stuff, again no lable but just one look at the greasy, nasty can told me exactly what it was.

So, if you were closer I would say, "Don't buy a can, come on over and I will give you all you need!"

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by DocNeedles on 05/05/09 at 08:30:28

5B594E48434E594642404E2B0 wrote:

Hey, thanks for the offer neighbour!!! Maybe you could send me a letter and glue it on to the back of a stamp!!
Thanks again,
DocNeedles.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by prechermike on 05/05/09 at 08:33:06

A letter is a disgusting idea! That stuff is about the nastiest mess I have ever seen, no matter what is close, it gets on it with a grey, slick, sticky mess. I put the can I found into a liter sized drink bottle that I cut off just a little tall. That way I don't even have to touch the can! ;)

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by PTRider on 05/05/09 at 09:08:21

Well, about half right.

"Galling, according to ASTM standard G40 (2006), is: “a form of surface damage arising between sliding solids, distinguished by microscopic, usually localized, roughening and creation of protrusions (i.e., lumps) above the original surface”. In other words galling is material transfer from one metallic surface to another caused by movement and plastic deformation. Galling usually refers to adhesive wear and transfer of material between metallic surfaces during sheet metal forming and other industrial applications."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

Galling is the process of micro-welding then micro-tears of the welded bits of metal as they slide together under pressure. Yes, it will ruin threads. Yes, aluminum is prone to galling. No, it has nothing to do with dissimilar metals.

Dissimilar metals plus a conductive media result in "Galvanic corrosion, a process that degrades metals electrochemically. This corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are placed in contact with each other in the presence of an electrolyte, such as salt water [or engine coolant with depleted corrosion inhibitors], forming a galvanic cell. A cell can also be formed if the same metal is exposed to two different concentrations of electrolyte. The resulting electrochemical potential then develops an electric current that electrolytically dissolves the less noble material [such as an aluminum cylinder head]."
[Comments mine]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell#Galvanic_corrosion

I've seen a lot of galling of uncoated steel threads against uncoated steel threads. Coating of bolts, even the black oxide coating often seen, helps prevent galling. Identical alloys of stainless threaded together dry may gall terribly.

Keep in mind that lubricating the threads when it isn't called for in the spec changes the torque spec to an unknown value. The torque value is based on the friction of the threads, the stretch of the bolt, the strength of the bolt, and the compression of the base metal and gasket. If one of these is changed, the torque spec must be changed. If the friction is reduced and the same torque (twist) applied, the bolt may stretch to failure or the base metal or gasket may be compressed too much.

I always use a dab of anti seize on sparkplug threads in an iron or aluminum head. Never Seez is a brand name of one popular anti seize product, and I've used cases of pints of it, along with others like Never Seez Pure Nickel for high temperatures and Marine Never Seez for added corrosion resistance, Fel-Pro C5-A, and MolyKote G-N.

http://www.neverseezproducts.com/b-reg1.jpg

"Galling is prevented by the presence of grease or surface coatings, even if the surface coatings increase friction. It usually does not occur when joining dissimilar materials (e.g., threading 18-8 stainless steel into 17-4 stainless steel) even though both of those materials are susceptible to galling."
Wikipedia link above.

Gaul is the ancient Roman name for the parts of Western Europe we presently call France and Belgium.

That clerk at the NAPA auto parts store is a total fool. Threads are specified by the diameter and the pitch...the pitch is the number of threads per inch or per millimeter. Fractional (English) threads will be something like 1/4-20 which is 1/4" diameter and 20 threads per inch, also called National Coarse or USS thread. 1/4-28 is National Fine or SAE thread. Metric threads will be something like M6x1...6mm diameter and 1 thread per millimeter. There are choices of fine or coarse metric thread pitch--M6x.75, for example. Another dimension will show the length of the shank, not including the head. The strength of the bolt will be in the fractional system labeled as Grade 1, Grade 3, Grade 5, Grade 8, and more detailed grades. In the metric system the higher strength grades will be labeled as 8.8 or 10.9.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by marshall13 on 05/05/09 at 09:37:34

just remember, never copper bearing anti-sieze compound on aluminum and steel combos... all the advance auto parts shops have those "postage stamp packs" by the parts counterman/woman... usually they have antisieze among them.... and, almost all antisieze compounds are very mildly abrasive, so on parts that you will be assembling and disassembling very often, use "blue goo" rtv silicone... that last is more for hot-rodding types, that might be pulling covers and such a few times a week.... if you strip and reassemble more than 6 times a year, blue goo... less often, any non-copper anti-sieze.... always use it on cylinder studs, and head nuts.... and as the previous poster noted, a must on spark plug threads... and yeah, i think id avoid that napa from now on, anybody that would sell you a 1/4 tap for a metric thread cant be trusted to have enough brainpower to be able to graduate from loafers to laces...lol

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by DocNeedles on 05/05/09 at 10:42:33

525E4D4C575E53530E0C3F0 wrote:

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by PTRider on 05/05/09 at 10:50:16

777B6869727B76762B291A0 wrote:

i think id avoid that napa from now on, anybody that would sell you a 1/4 tap for a metric thread cant be trusted to have enough brainpower to be able to graduate from loafers to laces...lol

He probably has shoes with velcro straps.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by marshall13 on 05/05/09 at 11:01:52

6D464A674C4C4D454C5A290 wrote:

[quote author=525E4D4C575E53530E0C3F0 link=1241496507/0#1 date=1241498649]cleaning up thread holes in iron is a good idea, aluminum, not so much... dont use a 1/4 inch tap, no matter what the napa guy told you.. threads in aluminum are often roll tapped, not cut... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect

So I went to a neighbour who is the guns master here on the island and he lent me a copper barrel cleaning rod which does fit. I then re-read your note and saw that you specified nylon. So the question is would copper being a soft metal work. My thoughts are that it might leave particles of copper in the bolt hole which I know would not be a good idea.
Appreciate your feedback.
DocNeedles[/quote]
brass or copper isnt a good idea for 2 reasons... metalic wires will take a "set"... bend in the direction of rotation, thus reducing the od of the brush... nylon takes it much slower... a brass brush could be harder than the aluminum... not good... and, any copper residue (or cupric alloy residue) left on the aluminum will promote electrolytic damage to those aluminum threads... also a bad idea....

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Rockin_John on 05/05/09 at 19:43:02

Just to add another reason to never substitute an American/SAE thread tap/die (or nut/bolt or anything else for that matter) for a metric:

Besides all the other differences, the actual shape of the threads are different in that metric threads have a slight flat surface in the valley and on top of the peaks. American/SAE threads do not have the flat, and actually have a sharp pointed thread. Having that sharp thread can sometimes make the bolt feel like it is going to hold in the other type of threads; until it is subjected to some force; then it strips the threads out on its way out of the hole. Usually ruining the bolt and/or hole on the way out.

Moral of the story: Your "NAPA" guy IS a TOOL, but he doesn't know beans about them. ;)

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Digger on 07/11/09 at 20:13:00

595546475C5558580507340 wrote:

... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect

Marshall,

That is a good tip....works like a charm. I was able to clean gunk out of the screw holes that was still in there from the factory.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/BoreBrushE.jpg

I didn't use a drill, I just screwed the bore brush in and back out by hand.

I ran a rethreading tap (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=9646&group_ID=1145&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog) into the bolt holes, also.

Thanks for the tip!

Thank you! 8-)

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by voldigicam on 07/12/09 at 02:56:12

I was taught, correctly or not, that torque figures were for perfect oiled threads and that never seize compounds were close enough to oil to substitute. I'd love that confirmed!

Doesn't take much. Machines drowning in never seize are less fun.

Like most of my equipment, I figure my bike will come apart and go back together beautifully by the time I get rid of it!!!

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by LANCER on 07/12/09 at 03:22:33

5 GOLD STARS for this thread.

Exellent info guys ... thank you for your expertise. Understanding what is happening and why something should or should not be done, how to do it correctly, and what to use is just superbly useful and very interesting . The practical side is we all save time, frustration, and in the long run even $$$$.

Thank you for your time and effort to help the rest of the gang.

Time to go out and buy a set of nylon gun brushes and anti-seize stuff.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by voldigicam on 07/12/09 at 05:22:57

OK. I'll add something.

At one bizarre point in my life I had a job disassembling cars and blueprinting them. Someone would have a favorite car and want to keep it. Some I took down to the bare body, had repainted, blueprinted the engine, best brake lines, and so on. First class. This was really less work than you'd think with air tools and so on. I'd use a dip tank for cleaning, neutralize & dry everything. New fastners where there was corrosion.

Everything went back with a torque wrench and neverseize.

Years later, one of these cars came up for sale with only 150,000 miles after the rebuild. No idea how many miles on the basic carcass - probably 400,000 miles. I'd had the interior custom done at the rebuild time, and covers went on.

You could still eat off the engine, barely tell it was idling by looking.

And every single thing I had to work on came apart absolutely effortlessly. Nothing was every stuck on that car. EZ working.

Of course, my ex eventually splattered it.

Neverseize works. And works. And works.

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Digger on 07/15/09 at 20:53:37

I made a small mod to my bore brush to make it easier to turn:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/BoreBrush-1E.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/BoreBrush-2E.jpg

Title: Re: Am I going overboard?
Post by Digger on 07/15/09 at 21:04:17

7960636B6668666C6E620F0 wrote:

FWIW....

I've got my Savage (see signature) torn apart right now and recently spent way too much time online researching the torque reduction I should be using for the particular type of anti-seize I'm using, Permatex Anti-Seize (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_a.htm).

As you can imagine, there are many variables, methodologies, and engineering "fudge factors" involved. I even got sucked into a long, involved discussion (with some awesome links to source data, BTW) on a BMW motorcycle forum (those guys take anality to a level never approached on this board).

Bottom line, for my flavor of anti-seize (it makes a difference, BTW), if the spec calls for dry threads, I use 80% of the torque spec. If there is a range of dry-thread torques specified in the spec, I take the the minimum torque specified or 80% of the maximum torque specified, whichever is lowest.