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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> what would be the best oil in the summer heat...?? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1240876907 Message started by lokjaw777 on 04/27/09 at 17:01:47 |
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Title: what would be the best oil in the summer heat...?? Post by lokjaw777 on 04/27/09 at 17:01:47 90 to 93 here in va beach past few days ......finally getting the honey do list down so i can start working on my list........should i just stick with the top $$$$ oil at the suzi shop or should i try something different...... |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by craigq on 04/27/09 at 17:15:07 Watch out, oil debates are right up there with religion and politics :o I'm not recommending anything, I think I learned my lesson. I'll just spout off some of my thoughts... I believe these two are readily available: Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 Amsoil MCV 20W50 A lot of motorcyclists like Rotella T (syn 5W40 or conventional 15W40). Low cost and UOA's show good results, most of the diesel or "Heavy Duty" oils do... most of the low-spec motorcycle oils don't (although M1 and Amsoil generally yield good results). I'm sure Motul or another of the Euro's must have some we could use, Motorex has a synthetic 10W50 and 10W60 which solved engine problems with KTM's LC4 If you want I can forward you a file which compiles most of the motorcycle UOA's on www.bobistheoilguy.com and you can peruse the results of the different oils... It's not up-to-date but I will probably get around to it sooner or later... |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by alcoa on 04/27/09 at 17:19:41 reg. oil came in the bike thats all i put in. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Charon on 04/27/09 at 17:25:50 Read the Owner's Manual. Do what it says. However, you won't go wrong with the suggestion of Shell Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection. I shy away from the 5W-40 simply because the 5W is not recommended by the Owner's Manual. Many, however, find it completely satisfactory. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Gort on 04/27/09 at 17:53:02 Here is what our resident expert Kwak-Nut had to say about oils, in a much earlier post. He has worked in the oil industry for years: "About synthetics: First, a lot of the myths about synthetics go back several decades when the original ‘synthetics’ were strange indeed, such as glycol based, and had very different properties to your normal mineral oil – there were problems with them attacking seals, they had disadvantages for every advantage, and you absolutely could not ix the with mineral oil. However, there are many kinds of synthetics. Modern polyalphaolefin ‘synthetics’ we use in retail automotive applications are not like that – they’re 100% compatible with mineral oils because they are the same compounds, just made in a purer way than nature can do it. What people fail to grasp is that these synthetics are chemically the same as mineral oils, just purer. Your average engine oil is made up of molecules each consisting about 30 carbon atoms, with obviously a few bits of oxygen and hydrogen thrown in. In a mineral oil, they are going to be in all sorts of shapes - think of it like the variation in shape you get with snowflakes. The odd one will just be a neat, perfect, straight carbon chain – but not many at all. Those others, the majority of randomly-shaped 30-weight molecules all have physical weaknesses, and ‘corners’ where other chemicals find it easier to react and attach. In your traditional mineral oil/liquefied dinosaur juice, it all starts out as one thick gloop that comes out of the ground and we fractionally distil it to get different ‘weights’ out at the refinery. The thin stuff goes in fuel tanks, the medium stuff is lube, and the thick stuff makes roads. Vacuum distillation separates the oils in to different weights of base stock – hence the 30-ish carbon molecule size in our oils. A true synthetic engine oil is polymerised – made up from C2 gas (ethane), to produce perfect straight carbon chains. They are chemically identical to the less smoothly shaped natural molecules, they have the same chemical formula, but they are far more stable, not just to oxidation and chemical breakdown, but to physical duress as well – in gear teeth under extreme pressure, those molecules just slip past each other rather than breaking each other’s arms off. That results in many advantages: The oil remains more stable, doesn’t break down as quickly, and lasts far longer in the sump; less friction heat is generated, the oil itself exerts less friction against the metal – so less wear; less energy is used to turn the machine because of that reduce friction – so you actually gain in power and economy. I could go on here. Think of the oil molecules as being like components that come off a rough production line. The very best items get inspected and put to one side for custom and aerospace applications – the rest goes into cheap mass production. Well, with these fully synthetic oils, it’s like every molecule you get is the individually inspected blueprinted component you’d get from a custom machine shop, while normal oils contain all the average stuff and all the rejects too. In short, it’s the same as mineral oil, but purer – much purer. Additives Engine oils contain a complex additive package. Key to internal combustion engines is the dispersant/detergent pack. The detergent coats metal surfaces to stop carbon waste products from adhering, while the dispersant is made up of little charged molecules which attach to small pieces of carbon and cause them to repel from each other – that way, the particles of suspended carbon (which are going to be there from fuel combustion and a little from oil burned on the bores whether you want it or not) always stay smaller than the oil film, and do not rub against your engine’s precious working surfaces. There are also anti-wear agents, similar to those used in gearboxes which are activated by the temperatures caused at local pressure points, and effectively put a protective chemical coat on the metal, and there are viscosity improvers, which are spiral molecules which expand when hot, helping to counteract the thinning of an oil with increased temperature. There are also emulsifying agents; their job is to trap water, in an emulsion, which allows the oil to absorb, safely, a certain amount of crankcase condensation or other moisture ingress. Synthetics do not have any ‘problems’ with condensation that other oils would not have, whatever anecdotal evidence may have been observed by the odd individual. Additives are important in engine oil – what we all need to remember is that you get what you pay for, and the good additive packs don’t go into cheap oil. The way those additives perform comes down to the additive pack, not the oil base stock (though a good base stock will need the assistance of the additives less than a poor one). Viscosity of synthetics: Firstly, what do we mean when we say 10W40 or 20W50? The first number, the W rating, says how thick the oil is at zero centigrade. The second number says how thick it is at 100 centigrade. You’ll notice that a mineral oil will probably be 15W40 or 20W50, while the synthetic can be 0W40 or 5W50. That’s because the synthetics have a flatter viscosity index – and that means that their viscosity varies less with temperature. That’s partly down to the expensive additive pack, partly lack of waxy impurities, but mostly the purity of the base stock. On a zero centigrade/32F cold morning, a 10W40 mineral oil will be the same thickness as a 10W50 synthetic – same pressure reading when you start up, and similar at room temperature. However, when it gets really cold, like -15C/5F or worse, your mineral oil gets really thick, because it just doesn’t like that cold, and until it warms up your engine struggles to pump it round – it can be several seconds on that kind of cold day before the top end gets any oil at all! With the synthetic, that flat viscosity index, and lack of waxy impurities, means that there is far, far less thickening when it gets really cold, and the oil still flows easily. You can test this yourself. Take an egg cup (or a smaller container) of Mobil 1, and of a similar W-rated mineral oil, and leave them in the deep freeze overnight. See how they pour in the morning. When it gets hot, obviously the reverse happens. The 5W50 synthetic is the same thickness as the 20W50 mineral oil at 100C, but when things go wrong the viscosity of the mineral oil drops right off, and it starts to evaporate too quickly off hot bores. The synthetic retains much more viscosity than the mineral oil, doesn’t evaporate off the bores as easily and remains far, far more resistant to thermal breakdown. In Europe GM launched a car called the Vauxhall Carlton some 20-odd years ago. Lotus had the contract to develop it from a 3-litre, 4-door saloon to be ‘quicker than a Ferrari Testarossa’. They achieved it, but struggled badly to get the 377bhp they needed from that 3 litre turbocharged engine (this was the 80s remember) because they couldn’t keep temperature down at the boost they needed, and the oil was boiling in the sump. The answer? Mobil1 5W50, and thick black print in the owner’s handbook not to use any other oil! Again, you can test it yourself. Place a teaspoon each of 20W50 mineral oil and 5W50 synthetic in a baking tray in a hot oven, and see how they take the heat (best to do this when the mrs is out) You’ll always here people come out with stories of how they’ve had problems with synthetic oil. What they can rarely tell you is whether they’d have had the same problem with mineral oil, or if they just hadn’t noticed up to the point they changed the oil! Lots of people will continue to resist the expertise of some pretty clever people who develop these products for the oil companies, and go with the advice of the mechanic at their local bar who wouldn’t even trust synthetic oil in his lawnmower. He’s like a fellow in my local pub who won’t wear a seatbelt in case he can’t duck to one side when a truck full of scaffolding poles gets spilled over his hood – he’d get skewered if he wore his belt, so he’s convinced that it’s safer to drive without a seat belt on. I doubt he really has to worry about being run through by scaffolding poles, and I just hope he doesn’t have a regular crash." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by PTRider on 04/27/09 at 18:06:22 The recommended oil is 10W-40, and I don't like that at all. To get those 30 points of viscosity difference in a non-synthetic oil way too high a volume of polymer viscosity index improvers (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=1327) had to be added to the oil. The VIIs do not lubricate, they just take up space in the oil and cause the oil to thin less when hot...until they shear. Gears tend to shear the VIIs, especially the cheaper ones, very quickly. This would be gears in a camshaft drive in a car or gears in a motorcycle transmission! Oil with sheared VIIs measures as the viscosity of the base oil, certainly no longer 40wt in the case of a 10W-40, maybe more like a 20wt. So...I'd much prefer an conventional 20W-50 or syn xW-50 in hot weather, especially for an air cooled engine, and a 15W-40 or 5W-40 in moderate weather. A synthetic thins less in the high heat and thickens less when very cold, and also oxidizes more slowly. The allowable High Temperature/High Shear viscosity, a very rigorous viscosity test measured at 150°C, allows a lower HTHS viscosity for a 5W-40 than a 15W-40. I'd avoid a gasoline engine 5W-40 and stick with a dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine 5W-40 oil; the diesel rated oils are more robust. A higher HTHS viscosity offers more engine protection. Here's the SAE spec: http://www.infineum.com/information/api_tables/SAE%20Viscosity%20Grades%20For%20Engine%20Oils%20-%202008.pdf Several errors in Gort's posting: Quote:
Most of what we call "synthetic oil" these days is made from Group III base oil. This is very highly refined from crude oil, and the best is almost as good as the Group IV polyalphaolefin base oil Gort describes. Here's more (http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/grp3_perform.aspx). Note that UCBO is Chevron's name of Unconventional Base Oil for their Group III. The only PAO oils I know of on the market are most Amsoil products (very good despite their hype) and maybe Mobil 1, although ExxonMobil won't state for sure. Redline oil, great stuff, is Group V ester with some Group IV. No one knows what's in Royal Purple. The Infineum link I posted above shows the definitions of the base oil groups. (Infineum is a joint venture of ExxonMobil and British Petroleum that makes the additives for lubricants--motor oil is about 75-80% base oil and 20-25% additives...detergents, dispersants, viscosity index improvers, antiwear agents, antioxidants, antifoamants, friction modifiers, dye, etc.) Here's more about base oils (http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/comp_med.aspx). VHVI = Very High Viscosity Index base oil. PAO = polyalphaolefin base oil. Quote:
Viscosity index is the relative difference in viscosity between 40°C and 100°C. A higher viscosity index number is better...the oil thins less when hot and thickens less when cold. These are shown on the Chevron base oil comparison sheet (http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/comp_med.aspx). |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Gort on 04/27/09 at 22:18:59 I will PM Kwak Nut and see if he cares to respond to your comments on his material, which I quoted. It would be interesting to see what he has to say, considering his experience in the oil business. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Yonuh Adisi on 04/27/09 at 23:34:14 Any oil that will not spawn another Great Oil Debate, but of course that would just mean running it dry which is a REALLY BAD IDEA!! Never mind, I wasn't here. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by bill67 on 04/28/09 at 04:28:10 I use 20/50 Klotz synthetic racing oil it cost more but will last more mileage,maybe up to double before you have to change oil,If it works for racing it such work good in a low power s40.Klotz was one of the first synthetic oils.I live in wisconsin so I seldom ride in 90 degree temperatures maybe one month a year.I think it will double the life of the engine.Next oil change I'm going to their new Klotz MX4 15/50,Which is supposed to give it 10% less wear than the older oil. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Reelthing on 04/28/09 at 06:59:46 20w/50 mobil 1 vtwin summer, 10w/40 mx4 mobile 1 winter. changed often - you only have 2 quarts make it a quality oil and keep it clean. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by photojoe on 04/28/09 at 07:56:01 5463636A726E6F6861060 wrote:
Best advice so far. The owner of the shop where I buy my oil said to me last year "you change your oil way too much." I'm riding an '87, there's never a "too much" when it comes to changing my oil. The cleaner the oil, the better. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by vhfkid on 04/28/09 at 09:35:16 686B6F6E6573040 wrote:
Along the same lines as the original question, would Rotella T be a good choice for summer riding? At 15-40 it's not real thick, would it make a good day to day oil in 90-100deg. weather? |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by PTRider on 04/28/09 at 10:02:04 Suzuki recommends an xW-40 or xW-50 for temps over 86[ch9824]F. I'd pick the 50, especially for any hard riding. Any 20W-50 or synthetic 15W-50, 10W-50, or 5W-50 would do very well. The 20W-50 is listed by Suzuki as OK down to +14[ch9824]F, so it won't be too thick when cold for your use. Shell Rotella-T is a perfectly OK oil. Nothing wrong with it and nothing wonderful about it. Conoco/Phillips/76/Kendall's new diesel & gasoline 15W-40 is a better oil with their "Liquid Titanium." That is a new additive that is exclusive to ConocoPhillips so far from Afton Chemical. It has been shown to reduce camshaft & rocker arm wear and deposit a very thin coating of titanium on the parts. Other oil companies will come out with something equal or better in time, but this is likely the best regular priced 15W-40 at this time. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by sjaskow on 04/28/09 at 10:20:17 I've used "Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50" each time I changed it. This last time the bike had only about 1400 miles on it but it had been 6+ months since I changed it (OH winters will do that). It came out looking almost as good as it went in. The time before that was a little over 2500 in 4 months through the heat of summer and it was only a little black. I'm with Reelthing and photojoe: there are only 2ish quarts and it's an air-cooled, wet clutch engine. I'd rather spend $25 per oil change than spend a summer and major $$ rebuilding the engine. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Rustbucket on 04/28/09 at 15:38:04 I use the 20-w50 suzuki brand oil for summer. 10-w40 suzuki brand oil for the cooler months. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Sandy Koocanusa on 04/28/09 at 16:49:37 I use Castrol Syntech 10w-40. My clutch is starting to slip at 10,000 miles. I wish I knew if the oil was causing it or not, because otherwise, I'm happy with the oil. No "energy conserving" or "friction modifying" stuff written on the little circle on the back of the jug. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by thumperclone on 04/28/09 at 16:58:10 10/40 amsoil in my 06 for 13K.. nay a problem to date have a oil temp gauge highest ive seen is 60 deg F above ambient at 100 f |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Charon on 04/29/09 at 15:23:26 I always think it is entertaining when the oil threads start. Lots of people make lots of recommendations, and lots of people rhapsodize ecstatic about all sorts of wonder oils. It seems to me that the people who make the machine might just possibly know a little about the subject, too. The oils recommended by the machine makers are undoubtedly adequate to the task. Oils "more than adequate" are unlikely to be much of an improvement, just as higher octane fuels are unlikely to run any better. It's your money, and your motorcycle, and you are free to spend as much money as you like. But it is unlikely to matter. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by PTRider on 04/29/09 at 17:58:45 But higher octane gasoline is not better gasoline; it is harder to ignite, exactly what one wants to prevent preignition. Better oils do exist and really do a better job over the long run. Yes, the engine engineers know lubes. That does not mean that what is published is the best lube for the job, and more likely means that it is the lowest acceptable lube for the job. Would Suzuki prefer to sell their branded oil, their parts & dealership labor, or a new Suzuki motorcycle, or recommend an oil that will make their engine live for a very, very long time? Not pertinent to small engines like motorcycle engines...It is clear that better quality oil and lab analysis of the oil to determine the maximum safe life of the oil saves money in oil, filters, labor costs, and engine wear, and sometimes a couple'a percentage points in fuel savings. I've documented that in large engines. Of course, the analysis cost is greater than the oil & filter for a small engine, so it doesn't pay, but the principles are the same. I use a $5 synthetic blend oil (http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/701.pdf) in my car & truck engines with 10,000 mile oil & filter changes, and the engines are extremely clean with lab reports saying that the oil is good for even longer. I count on the lab reports for the engines I've run including the 2700 hp generator engines with 600 gallon oil sumps and the 57,500 hp propulsion diesel engine with a 30 tons of oil in its sump. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by KwakNut on 05/15/09 at 17:36:10 1427213D2027550 wrote:
I simplified a few of my comments for the benefit of the general reader, and he has filled in the gaps in those areas. The overall tenor of his post doesn't really differ from what I say, which comes down to: synthetics are best! He's absolutely right, for example, on his concern over the shear stability of viscosity improvers. They are a 'vulnerable' big spiral molecule which is no substitute for the inherent flat viscosity index of a synthetic, and serve really just to get some mineral oils through industry tests which help with marketing. As for the W ratings, yes they are Cold Crank Simulator tested at different temperatures, but what it equates to for you and I is how thick they are at, roughly, water freezing temp. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Jay on 05/15/09 at 23:45:22 "what would be the best oil in the summer heat...??" The oil that's easy to find, doesn't break the bank, has no energy conserving label, that will be changed (along with filter) on a frequent basis, that doesn't start a heated oil war that gets hotter than our engines in the summer at a 5 minute stop light! Seriously, there's a great deal of good info here. Make that great info here; but it's easier to talk relegion and politics than oil. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by lokjaw777 on 05/16/09 at 03:41:50 i only brought the subject up bcuz the only mc shop is at least an hour from my house compared to a wal-mart and advance just 10min away...it's a 2002 with just over 15,000 |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Oldfeller on 05/16/09 at 04:23:50 In this oh so polite oil discussion, has anyone mentioned the need for flat tappet and cam profile protection from the old style Zinc Phosphorus (ZDP or ZDDP) additive packages? Our motors are of an old traditional design type and require special additives to prevent spauling or gauling of the cam tappet followers. These are the older type additive packages that used to be found a decent concentrations in all motor oils from all vendors. You didn't have to hunt for it because it was in all motor oils. ZDDP (modern name for same stuff) keeps your cam chain from stretching/wearing out as fast and it keeps your valve clearance from wearing a bunch of slop by eating a concave portion into the tappet follower from gauling/spauling. Both of these items are "bad things" in a Savage motor. THERE IS NO modern replacement package for these ZDDP additives -- anything effective enough is "energy saving", wears the death star and will cause clutch slippage in your motor. ZDDP was a very effective additive package that has been removed to a VERY large degree from all car oils because it has been found to harm the Type 2 catalytic converters found on modern cars. That's a shame, because you do need it in your Savage's oil and it simply isn't there in car oils any more. BTW, they don't tell you it is missing as the oil they sell is poorer because of the missing package that they had to take out because of the cat converter issues. Take joy in the fact that the ZDDP additive packages are still available in certain expensive motorcycle oils -- namely the Mobil 1 V-Twin Harley oil series and in the very highest level racing oils sold for enthusiast's hopped up car engines. Unfortunately these oils cost $10 a quart and are not available everywhere by a long shot. If you want ZDDP in good concentration levels in an oil that can be bought anywhere, buy the "intended for use in a diesel engine" Rotella T dino oil with the triple protection label as mentioned earlier by Charon. This oil has been tested by Shell and passes all the JSO series tests for motorcycle wet clutch engines and it has a very strong following of motorcycle enthusiasts who keep an eye on it at BOBISTHEOILGUY with all those endless oil analysis, ect. My personal favorite is the synthetic Shell Rotella T which keeps an odd rating of 5w40 because it doesn't get thick when it gets cold. It also doesn't get thin when it gets hot and it can take elevated temperatures higher than a savage engine can achieve without breaking down to any noticeable degree. Oil is a bit of personal preference thing, but when you tear your top end apart to replace a stretched out cam chain and you notice all the concave spaulling on your tappet followers -- then you will say to yourself .... "Durn, after I spend the $160 for these here replacement parts maybe I'll give that Rotella diesel oil a try to see if I can avoid this nonsense next time." |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by PTRider on 05/16/09 at 13:44:10 4E4D49484355220 wrote:
As Oldfeller is suggesting, a dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine oil. 15W-40 conventional is excellent. 5W-40 synthetic is better. I prefer Conoco/Phillips/76/Kendal over Shell Rotella-T. Chevron Delo 400 is fine. Mobil Delvac 1300S is fine. Your choice. All are very good. |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by Jay on 05/16/09 at 20:00:35 686B6F6E6573040 wrote:
Aww, I wasn't tryin to bust yer chops lokjaw777; I wuz tryin' to be funny. (Note to self, quit trying to be funny!) :-[ I went with Oldfeller's advice and started using Rotella T dino 15w40 a few thousand miles back. I may even consider syn someday, but I still change my oil and filter every 1,000 miles; and that wouldn't stop with the syn, so I'll probably just stay with the dino and drink the price difference. ;) |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by marshall13 on 05/17/09 at 11:53:31 id say one that's just slippery enough, but not too....one that's just thin enough, but not too... one that carries off just enough heat, without cooling too much... and that's about as deep as im ever going to step into one of these oil debates...lol |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by gazoo07 on 05/17/09 at 19:13:35 Thanks kwaknut & PTRider for the very accurate and informative posts on oil. The low number (10 in 10W40) doesnt mean much in motorcycle oils. It indicates how the oil flows at low temps. According to the 07 S40 owners manual 20W50 is good down to 14 degrees F. (That does not mean 14 degrees sitting in your yard or garage it means riding or starting the bike in this temp) If you live in Alaska and the temp gets lower than that but you dont start it until the temp goes above that it is not an issue. If you ride at under 14 degrees you have bigger kahunas than me and you may need to watch the lower number but most dont. And on the subject of buying oil from the dealership if you check the price you will most certainly find that you can find better oil cheaper. Contrary to popular beleif Diesel oils are not the only oils left with Zinc & phosphorous. All motorcycle oils that I know of have both and they are formulated for motorcycles not 18 Wheelers. Amsoil motorcycle oils have a GL1 gear lube rating which is important since our oil also lubricates the transmission gears. Yes I sell Amsoil and beleive it is the best. Check out this link and see what you think https://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePaper.aspx There are a lot of good Synthetic MC oils out there and I would recommend using a motorcycle oil if you dont use ours. Gazoo www.lubedealer.com/1lube |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 03:20:35 21383321393D25520 wrote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: what would be the best oil in the summer heat. Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 03:22:42 6067782B0 wrote:
+1 |
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