SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1240688756

Message started by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 12:45:56

Title: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 12:45:56

Anyone know why, Things that ive done, new plug, new carb, fixed holes in tail pipe, new head gasket, checked valve clearances. Im lost, it makes no diference what gear im in i can not get over 60 mph, this is a 1996 ls 650 with 13600 miles on it, bike runs great up to 60! Not sure where to go from here. Any help would be great im at my wits end with this.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 12:48:13

Sorry i have also been through the time twice and that is spot on!

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/25/09 at 12:59:28

do you have a tach?
Is it reving high enough to go fast?
I'm wondering about your new carb, what jets?
Could it be a cable issue? Just not getting enough twist to go?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:03:00

The cable opens the carb all the way. no i dont have a tach wish i did, i made sure i was getting 4th and 5th gear at low speeds it feels like there catching so i eleiminating the transmission, i was wondering about the carb myself. The carb is completely oem jets and all. when riding at 60mph the trottle is about 3/4 open, if i go past that to full throttle i acctual lose speed to about 55mph if that helps.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:07:04

where can i find a faily cheap tach that will work with this bike?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/25/09 at 13:11:00

What size are the jets?

It could be they gave you jets for the current bike and it may be starved for gas at speed.
My '96 ran great with a 150 and stock pipe.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/25/09 at 13:11:36

search tach, there are a few listed here.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Charon on 04/25/09 at 13:16:27

Check the fuel screen in the tank and make sure that's clear. If it is partly clogged it might restrict fuel flow enough to give a problem like that. You could just remove the fuel line from the carburetor, put the petcock in PRIme, and see whether the fuel flows freely (into a suitable container).

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:17:57

ok Im not familar with jetting and stuff whats involved and how much does it cost or should i try to send carb back and try another carb, when i bought this carb i had a hard time finding the right one because the oem for this year was discontinued, they gave my a updated or revised version could this be the problem? How can i know what jets are in this carb?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:19:28

Yes the fuel flows freely because i just drained some today to run my lawn mower, lol.
But i will check again it was clear about 2 weeks ago when i painted the tank.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Ed L. on 04/25/09 at 13:37:49

Maybe the float in the carb's bowl is set wrong and causing a fuel starvation problem at higher RPM's. Are you getting any loud backfiring between shifts or black smoke out the pipe? Check the air filter and try a short ride without it just to see if there is any difference. If you are looking for a inexpensive tach and don't care what you use then look for a small engine or lawnmower tach. They are self contained, all you need to do is wrap the pickup wire around the bike's plug wire and hook up a ground.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:46:55

I used to get alot of back fire before i adjusted the air ide screw and welded the holes that were drilled in the tail pipe. Now i just get and accasional pop when slowing down its rare though. Ive read about installing a clip or something on the main jet, though im not sure how to do this as im not much of a carb expert, im only 25 and all i know is fuel injection. lol. on Cars that is. Whats in the float that is adjustable do you have a diagram?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by diamond jim on 04/25/09 at 13:50:41

Mine did that with one custom exhaust baffle I tried out and two different intake filter materials that I tried out. They caused too much airflow resistance on one side of the engine or the other to where the bike wouldn't get past 65. The problem was apparent momentarily at higher rpms when shifting through the gears and then persistently obvious at highway speeds. I'm not saying that either is your cause but pointing out that air flow on both sides as well as fuel problems can cause these issues. What kind of holes did you have to fix on the muffler? Was there a previous owner? Did they do anything to the muffler?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 04/25/09 at 13:53:42

3330252524292E272D212E400 wrote:

The little tab in the center is carefully bent to adjust the float level. (picture courtesy of SavageWahine and her Carb cleaning thread http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1191899985 )
http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C10%5C08%5Cbikepics-1049926-full.jpg

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 13:55:31

I think we may have something like that going on, Like i said i fixed the holes in exuast though this made no difference in performance just made the bike quieter. the air filter is i think it is stardard, its square black plastic with white filter and is clean. If its in this carb i am going to be so mad it took forever to get the thing and now it might not even be working right!

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 14:11:19

Thankyou for the thread very nice instructions I will adjust the float but which way it may sound dumb, if the pin is in i assume it stops gas flow, so i need to lower the little plate to alow more fuel ah now im confused... it shouldnt matter because no matter what its only going to let whatever fuel in that you use, right. All we would achieve is more volume in the bowl. Though the plastic spacer mod intrest me. sounds like an easy mod. I would almost seem as if i would need more vaccuum to suck more fuel at higher rpms.?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/25/09 at 14:23:06

what would be cause if the bike could not reach max rpm, other than fuel? Or air?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/25/09 at 15:25:36

http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C10%5C08%5Cbikepics-1049830-full.jpg

If you can see your bowl then you're not to far away from your jets.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 04/25/09 at 15:49:47

4340555554595E575D515E300 wrote:

what would be cause if the bike could not reach max rpm, other than fuel? Or air?

If the timing is way off, that could do it. Very low compression can do it also. Low spark plug voltage could do it, but the proof would be a sooty plug.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Trippah on 04/26/09 at 21:02:40

The main jet is responsible for 60% to 100% or WFO throttle. Perhaps your main is clogged or wrong size? Best of luck.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by LANCER on 04/27/09 at 09:02:29

It sounds to me like the rubber diaphram at the top of the carb slide is not seated properly in the groove around the top of the carb body. Remove the top cover from the carb body and check that the rubber diaphram is not crunched/twisted/pulled over/punchered/etc that would prevent the vacuum from pulling the slide all the way up.
It is very easy to get it off center when installing, and if that happens then the result produces the exact symptoms you describe.

If that is not the problem then you may need to get some holy water to exercise the carb demons.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Reelthing on 04/27/09 at 09:05:48

or the spring is off to one side and not centered in the cover

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 04:34:27

thanks everyone for the help, im going to test compression today hopefully, and also crossreference this sopposed updated carb that i had to purchase when i bought this carb. i will let you know what i find later on tonight, thanks again.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 11:14:54

OK Just did a compression check Came up with 135psi, the limit is 114psi, and the standard is 142 - 200 psi! So im not at the limit but im deffinetly below standard operation. I know the head gasket is good because its new and i replaced it. I already check valve clearances, there right on spec, so that leaves rings or cylinder/piston. Got to fix copression before i go to carb problems, Im starting to wish i never bought this bike, Looks like im going to have to do a rebuild, and i might as well replace the timing chain and tensioner aswell. Anyone esle have some input on the matter befor i go and blow a few hundered dollars on new parts, hey maybe nows a good time to bore it out and put a larger piston in :'(

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 14:04:35

Anyone live in central western part of florida that would like to tak my bike for a ride to see what they think my problem could be? Im am desperate. :o

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 04/30/09 at 15:54:41

It looks to me as if you've covered everything, and if I understand you correctly, the condition existed before you replaced the carb. How about the fully transistorized ignition system? It consists of a signal generator ( which consists of 1 rotor tip and one pick up coil), ignitor, ignition coil and spark plug. According to Suzuki, if the sparkplug fires an orange spark, the coil is defective. I'd take off the sparkplug wire, attach it to a spare plug, ground the plug to the engine and try to start the bike, while watching the sparkplug fire in a darkened area. You can more accurately check the coil by with an Volt/Ohm meter: check for continuity between the the primary and secondary windings. The primary readings should be between 1-7 ohms. The secondary readings should be between 10-25 ohms. Next, I'd check the Pick Up Coil. Remove the seat and the left frame cover. Measure the resistance between the lead ( orange and green) wires. If it is infinity or less than 220 +or- 20%, then it is defective. Next is the Ignitor (consisting of capacitors, diodes & etc.), but unfortunately I can't tell you how to check it with a Volt/Ohm meter because according to Suzuki, the readings they give are only good for their special 'Pocket Tester'.

Its been my experience with transistorized ignition systems in automobiles that it often only takes one defective internal piece to change its electrical value, for the engine to no longer run right. If I had your bike, I would first watch the color of the sparkpug spark, I would check the coil resistance readings, and after that I would see if I could find a cheap spare used Ignitor and put it on, and see if that does it. And after that, I would throw on a used signal generator and see if that fixes the problem.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 16:01:23

Interesting theory, never even thought of that, I will check all of that and see what i come up with essentially your thinking that im not fireing hot enough? Or losing voltage from the coil... see this stuff makes sence to me im just carb stupid thats all, lol, BTW i checked the petcock out and filter, they were slightly dirty but not bad, I also pulled the top of the carb to check the diafram and it is in good condition. Put a new plug in again today, the old one was dry, and slightly black.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 04/30/09 at 16:12:25

Here is what the Clymer manual says can be the causes of "Engine loses power at normal riding speed":

1. Carb incorrectly adjusted.
2. Engine overheating.
3. Improper ignition timing due to faulty component in system (remember, timing can look good when you check it, but be all over the place when riding at various rpms, if a part is faulty).

4. Weak ignition Signal Generator.
5. Weak or faulty Ignitor Unit.
6. Incorrectly gapped sparkplug.
7. Weak igniton coil.
8. Obstructed mufflers.
9. Dragging brakes.

I'd be willing to bet its something to do with the transistorized ignition system. In any case, get back to us when you find the solution.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 16:20:20

Ok heres an up date on the condition of the bike, New carburator, new head gasket, new exuast gasket, Correct timing, new plug, clean filters, carb diafram in good condition, Copression is at 135/psi., Bike seems strong untill about 50mph then starts to weaken out up to 60mph and thats it I can almost get 65mph going down hill, Heres the drivablity breakdown with full throttle all the way baby!

1st Gear - get to 35mph topped out
2nd Gear - get to 50mph topped out
3rd Gear - get to 55ish topped out
4th Gear - get to 60 full trottle
5th Gear - can hang on to 60 at 3/4 throttle but lose speed to about
55mph at full throttle

You guys have all been a ton of help and i apreciate everything!! Thanks agian, Time to check volts and resistance, wish me luck! :o

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 04/30/09 at 16:22:19

4C4F5A5A5B565158525E513F0 wrote:

My gut feeling is that the timing is changing due to a defective solid state component changing its value under high rpm or load demands, or maybe the spark weakens at high rpm for the same reasons.

By the way, fuel hoses can weaken internally and collapse just enough to allow fuel to pass through, but not enough for high RPM. I've seen them do this from age, and most certainly from the alcohol they now blend into gasoline, and from alcohol based additives like octane boosters and gas anti freeze, and others. From the outside the fuel line looks fine, but inside it has partially collapsed. It wouldn't hurt to replace it with Fuel Injection hose, which is designed to take the alcohol laced gasoline that is now sold. At one time Harley had this problem and sent out a directive to replace their bikes hoses with the newer kind.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 04/30/09 at 16:27:41

Thank you agian good idea the one thats on there is no telling how old it is. I am not the first onwner so i cant say whats happend to this bike, but now that i think about it even befor the new carb the bike did the same thing, but only jolted around and starved and died randomly, from the old carb.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Reelthing on 04/30/09 at 20:58:15

Quite a curious problem.

So when your in 5th pushing for 60mph and it slows down to 55 at wot can you hear the engine slow down as well?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/09 at 21:03:21

So, unless I've missed it, you didn't say what jets are in the carb.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by SV og LS on 05/01/09 at 01:16:02

I'd get a timing light to see if it ignition advances with rpm. Is it running smoothly at its top speed? Any misfiring?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/01/09 at 07:21:02

ok no im still not sure of the jets in the carb, going to ride today i removed the air filter to see if there is any difference, i will allso check ohms on ingnition system today, to see if anything is fualty. WHen in 5th gear at 3/4 throttle im can run 60, if open to full throttle i lose speed to about 55, no missfireing that i can tell and the bike seems to run smooth, though i can feel the loss in speed. Engine rpm seems reather high at 60 in 4th, then switching to 5th makes a slight difference in rpm. No way to be sure with out a tach un fortunetly im tapped out for cash right now so cant get one.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by verslagen1 on 05/01/09 at 07:27:50

7271646465686F666C606F010 wrote:

5th Gear - can hang on to 60 at 3/4 throttle but lose speed to about
55mph at full throttle

This is exactly what I tell people to do to test whether or not they need a bigger main jet.
You've looked at everything else, why not the jets?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by SavRon on 05/01/09 at 07:30:45

I found this little paragraph while reading about carb tuning tricks.

Quote:

Rev up to redline, then back off the throttle slightly. If the motor wants to run faster with the throttle backed off, the mixture is probably too lean.

..this also goes on to say not only while setting and reving the engine, but while under load.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 05/01/09 at 10:28:05

I'm a little confused about something here, so please straighten me out. Am I correct in assuming that when you bought the bike, it had this problem, and after you replaced the carb with a brand new one, you still had the same problem...is that correct?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/01/09 at 10:46:58

Ok folks heres what happend after test rode today with cleaned petcock filter brand new plug and no air filter.... I about broke my neck and sh.t myself when i took off, the bike ran like it has never before!!!!! i went well over 60 in 2nd gear and had so much power i hit 80 befor i relise ed that i was going to get a ticket if i dont slow down. when i finally opened the trottle up it allmost stood up on me, scared the crap out of me, so now going to put the air filter back in and see if that chages anything. Some where in the 3 things i did yesterday i made a huge difference, or a combo of all 3, well see when i put the air filter back in!

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 05/01/09 at 12:16:28

I read all your posts over and you said you replaced the sparkplug once already and the bike ran the same, and you said the old air filter was white and clean, and you said the fuel flows freely when you drained some out of the petcock. Now you've replaced the plug with another new one, removed the air filter which was white and clean, and cleaned the petcock which you said was previously flowing freely, and the bike runs right. Since it is running right, there is nothing wrong with the ignition system. You did you replace the carb with a new one in an attempt to correct the problem you are having, and the new one made no difference. Something isn't making sense here. Your latest test run points to a mixture problem in the carb because the only new thing you did was to remove the air filter, which would compensate for an over-rich fuel mixture. However, you've had 2 carbs on this bike and both acted the same. It would be a real coincidence that both had the same mixture problem.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/01/09 at 12:57:52

Ok i put the same air filter back in the bike and the bike still runs fine, the only thing i can think of now is that the plug that was in there was bad from the start, maybe that was all that was wrong all along, who knows stranger things have happend. but now everything seems to run fine, I'm not so sure about it myself. Maybe it heard me telling my wife that i was going to get rid of it if i couldnt fix it, lol. After all thats been done and the stress and so forth, i want to thank everyone for there input and help in this puzzleing adventure over the past month or so. THANKYOU SO MUCH!!! :o I can now say that i too love my savage thumper!! Case Closed... for now. Thankyou.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/01/09 at 13:08:40

The plug that was in this bike was the one i put in when i bought the bike and was in there before the new carb was put on so it would make sense that that plug was ethier faulty from the start or was fouled out from the old carb and i never thought to replace it intill now it had only been in ther for a 100 miles or so befor i changed carbs and head gasket and so forth. so all this fustration could have very well just been from that spark plug. Sorry for the confusion.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 05/01/09 at 14:08:53

AHA! Just like I thought! The wife sabotaged your bike!

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/01/09 at 19:55:43

My wife said something about the plug way back, but why would i listen to her, that soesnt't make sense to me... well i guess i learned a lesson through all of this, Listen to your wives they could be right. It been 8 years now would have figured that out by now right?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by diamond jim on 05/01/09 at 20:10:57

So, your wife knows more about bikes than you do?

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by smokin_blue on 05/01/09 at 20:15:14

just for kicks check the gap on the "bad" plug and tell us what it measures........

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 05/01/09 at 20:26:40

If your wife told you to check the plug in the beginning, sounds to me like she sabotaged it, either to drive you crazy or to try and prove she knows more than you do. In either case, I would punish her by placing the family in debt by buying a '09 Savage. That would teach her to never disrespect you again.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/2008-suzuki-boulevard-s40-2_460x0w.jpg

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by diamond jim on 05/01/09 at 20:35:01

LMAO!!! Punish her! Punish her!

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by speedingman on 05/02/09 at 04:16:00

No i cant do that, she was just trying to help, dont worry shes already asking for onw of her own, so maybe tax time ill get a second one for her. And as far as i know shes mechanicly stupid, think? You guys got me wondering now, lol. i will check the gap today, and see what it is.

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by diamond jim on 05/02/09 at 07:13:45

Maybe you should let her check it.

:D Just messing with you. My wife is amazingly handy with stuff. But even when it's something she doesn't know much about, she'll throw out some ideas. If the solution is even remotely related to her suggestion, she'll say. "Told ya so!"

Title: Re: Still cant get over 60mph! Cant figure it out!
Post by Gort on 05/02/09 at 10:18:45

She sounds like the perfect person to give your used Savage to, and you buy the new one for yourself. She has curiosity and interest in the bike. Sounds like she would take great satisfaction in working on it. You however, have expressed a lot of frustration trying to solve the bike's issues. You would be more suited for a brand new model, which you deserve to have anyway.