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Message started by Tropical Savage on 04/20/09 at 08:11:07

Title: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/20/09 at 08:11:07

First let me quickly introdude myself and my bike: 50, french born, brazilian (bahia) resident for more than 25 years, so please forgive my english. Bought a 2000 ls-650 in august 2007 with less than 17000 km. It now shows 50.000.
Today something weird happenned: the bike tried to start by itself and kept trying until I took of the seat and loosen the wires. There was no key on the bike, and switching on/off had no effect. The start button seemed to be moving normaly. As I was late to work and tomorrow is holiday I did not investigate anything. I can only say that at first sight I could not see any nude wire. I´d appreciate any hint from the experts on where I should start the investigation.
TIA
Andre

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by youzguyz on 04/20/09 at 08:24:28

Check the solenoid (starter relay). It is the large black object bolted to the rear fendor just behind the airbox. You can see it after you pull off the seat. It has 4 wires. 2 thick ones (to the battery and to the starter). 2 small ones (to control the relay).
It sounds like the solenoid has gotten jammed in the closed position.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by srinath on 04/20/09 at 08:46:31

My virago did it, when running down the highway @80 mph. Never even heard it till I slowed to ~35 to get the exit.
Burnt the starter ... to a crisp.
However much of the rest survived with only minimal damage.
The problem turned out to be a bad diode (in their words) but I call it a dead end plug. It plugs into the wiring harness has 3 inches of wires and ends in a rubber cap. That itself is stupid enough ... but the metal of the wires are poking through the moulded rubber encasing it. The thing has a idiotic cap on it, and if it were to take in water inbetween the cap and the rubber ... it will short one thing to another ...
If like in my case the cap slid out and the mounded rubber hit the frame ... it will ground any circuit you're unlucky enough to ground.
Starter may be the worst ...
Anyway I would look into some crap like that in the savage ... though I've not seen one in my 80's savages ... newer may have it, euro/South american bikes may have em ... no idea.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by verslagen1 on 04/20/09 at 08:51:34

JOG2 told us there is a wire in the decomp circuit that when supplied 12v will turn the starter on without starting it.. Look at the 'wont go' thread.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/20/09 at 09:13:24

Ohh, Itll start it if the ignition is on, but even iggy off, itll turn it over.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/20/09 at 10:31:13

I´ll do It. Thanks.

677463627D7076747F20110 wrote:

JOG2 told us there is a wire in the decomp circuit that when supplied 12v will turn the starter on without starting it.. Look at the 'wont go' thread.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/20/09 at 10:46:18

I forgot to say that untill yesterday I had the feeling that I should need to buy a new battery shortly because it was weak to start the engine and almost did not respond anymore after 3rd or 4th shot. Surprisingly today it lasted running the start motor at full steam continuously for around 3 mn until the motor burnt out. And even after the black smoke escaped from the motor and it stopped rotating there still had energy. There was a "tictictic" noise that did not stop until I wired off.
Andre

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/20/09 at 12:20:43

Which fuse blows that shuts the starter down? If a guy put a switch in to short that fuse, he could have an Emergency Kill & maybe save a starter motor.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by youzguyz on 04/20/09 at 12:24:58

The starter motor circuit does not have a fuse. From battery to solenoid to starter, and that's it.
However, an emergency disconnect switch on the line between the battery and solenoid might be an idea. It would need mounted so you could get to it quick though, and it would need to handle some pretty hefty amps.
Hmm.. could also put it between the solenoid and the starter. Right where the lead goes into the starter. That would be the best place IMHO.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/20/09 at 12:31:59

Theres a battery cut off switch at Harbor Freight for about $6.00.
I was hoping for a way to use a smaller, easier to install switch & have it readily accessible from a riding position.
Couldnt a guy put a switch inline with one of the solenoid control wires?
I would rather fuse it & put a switch in to short & blow the fuse, that way the switch couldnt corrode up & have a fail to start, but it would possible make the start kill fail that way. Ahhhh, questions,questions

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/20/09 at 12:46:49

No fuse, I think the motor hung.
26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:

Which fuse blows that shuts the starter down? If a guy put a switch in to short that fuse, he could have an Emergency Kill & maybe save a starter motor.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by youzguyz on 04/20/09 at 13:31:54

4D5254534E4978487840525E15270 wrote:

Putting a switch in the control circuit won't do any good if the solenoid freezes in the "closed" position. That can be caused by the contacts arcing, and welding themselves closed. Is that common? probably not, but the only sure way to remove power from the starter will be to put a heavy switch right on it.
The absolute easiest solution would be a quick disconnect - just a connector of some kind - right before the starter. Doesn't have to be a switch, just something water proof.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 06:30:22

Assuming this is the problem, how can I get the solenoid back to open position? Is it possible to get jammed by itself while the bike has been stopped during whole night?
Andre

51475D524F5D5152280 wrote:

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by sakara on 04/21/09 at 07:26:41

That tictictic sound and the issues you're having sounds similar to mine when the starter solenoid went on mine. The easiest solution was to replace it (cost me about $10-20 USD).

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by youzguyz on 04/21/09 at 09:08:18

0B2D302F363C3E330C3E293E383A5F0 wrote:

Assuming this is the problem, how can I get the solenoid back to open position? Is it possible to get jammed by itself while the bike has been stopped during whole night?
Andre
[quote author=51475D524F5D5152280 link=1240240267/0#1 date=1240241068]Check the solenoid (starter relay). It is the large black object bolted to the rear fendor just behind the airbox. You can see it after you pull off the seat. It has 4 wires. 2 thick ones (to the battery and to the starter). 2 small ones (to control the relay).
It sounds like the solenoid has gotten jammed in the closed position.

[/quote]

First, you need to make sure the solenoid is jammed. You will need a multi-meter.
Unhook all the wires from the solenoid. Measure the resistance between the 2 large connectors. It should show OPEN if it is not jammed. If it shows SHORTED(closed), then it is jammed shut. Even if you DO fix that by lightly hitting it, I would NOT use it in the bike again. Odds are the contacts inside are damaged and will tend to jam again.
Buy a new one.

You asked if it jammed by itself. I doubt it. When did it start this behavior? Did you just try to start it? and the starter would not stop spinning? I have a hard time believing you were just standing there and it started spinning on it's own!
When this occurs, it normally happens right when the starter switch is pressed. The surge of current through the solenoid to the starter can arc the contacts and "weld" them together.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 09:41:16

53455F504D5F53502A0 wrote:

You asked if it jammed by itself. I doubt it. When did it start this behavior? Did you just try to start it? and the starter would not stop spinning? I have a hard time believing you were just standing there and it started spinning on it's own!

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 09:48:01

If it had been in gear it would have rolled off the stand & crashed. So, as bad & unhandy as this is, it coulda been worse.Not that that will help fix it, just a little something to maybe help you smile.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by youzguyz on 04/21/09 at 09:54:08

56706D726B61636E516374636567020 wrote:

[quote author=53455F504D5F53502A0 link=1240240267/0#14 date=1240330098]
You asked if it jammed by itself. I doubt it. When did it start this behavior? Did you just try to start it? and the starter would not stop spinning? I have a hard time believing you were just standing there and it started spinning on it's own!

That's why I started the thread as "Should I call TAPS?". Sounds unbelievable but there was not anybody close to the bike when the starter ran.
I use the bike daily and excluding the petcock problem and the oil leak, I did not notice anything wrong with it before.
Andre[/quote]

Wow.. that is weird!! (I don't know what TAPS is, besides what they play on a bugle in the military. I don't get out much, except to ride).
Your solenoid might still be good. Test it like I said before. If it shows open, then it can be put back in service. Then it becomes a question of what made the control circuit activate the solenoid. That gets a lot more complicated.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 10:03:26

I'd have to be able to disable the control circuit while I looked for the problem, unless you can find the problem before you have to put the solenoid back in. If you cant find the problem, you can keep the solenoid control circuit open except when its time to start it up.

Have you checked to see is the control circuit is "On"? Danged intermittent problems are the worst. I had one I never solved. Thats why I have the backup start switch. It just finally quite shutting off & refusing to start back up.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 10:19:07

5E48525D40525E5D270 wrote:

Wow.. that is weird!! (I don't know what TAPS is, besides what they play on a bugle in the military. I don't get out much, except to ride).
Your solenoid might still be good. Test it like I said before. If it shows open, then it can be put back in service. Then it becomes a question of what made the control circuit activate the solenoid. That gets a lot more complicated.

I think TAPS stands for The Atlantic Paranormal Society and it's a TV serial also named as Ghost Hunters on scifi channel.
Andre

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 10:43:41

Maybe calling a priest isnt such a bad idea? If the handlebars spin 360* & the headlight shoots pea soup, you have a real problem.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 10:56:57

I spent the morning going back and forth between my computer and the garage to check the experts advices and dismount the bike. I took off all the connectors below the tank and the seat and noticed almost all are oxidized (green crust). As today is holiday and shops are closed I could not buy any spray to clean them so I did my best scratching with a small needle.
Wired back all the connectors and "BINGO" nothing happened. I tried to start the bike but it did not because the battery was too weak. No problem, the starter I was worrying about seemed to be rotating normaly when I pushed the red button. Put everything back in place.
I decided it was time to shower and lunch and I'll start the bike by human force during the afternoon. Had a wonderfull lunch and went to take a little rest. Did not last 10mn I woke up with my wife's screams.
Back to stage 0 :(

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 04/21/09 at 11:07:23

When you button it back up, make sure there is nothing metal protruding that would arc over your solenoid connections.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 11:16:08

1620213A270E2B263C264F0 wrote:

When you button it back up, make sure there is nothing metal protruding that would arc over your solenoid connections.

Visualy I could not find anything. What's weird for me is that nothing happened during around 2 hours and from nowhere the problem went back. Could not it be some kind of capacitor that needs a while to get charged?

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 04/21/09 at 11:17:26

I personally do not know, I don't know much about the electrical components of this bike.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 11:21:30

The question now is do I need the solenoid to ride? When I take off a 3 wires connector ( thick black, thin black/white and thin yellow/white wires) the starter do not go on. So if I start the bike by pushing I could drive to a mechanic. I can not try now because we are under heavy rain.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 11:33:25

All you need to do is pull the ground off the solenoid. You could switch it. Unless its grounded thru the frame, then switch or pull the hot wire.
If you dont have a test light & an ohm meter, now is a good time. Hook up where the wire should go to the solenoid & mess with things till it shows it has power, then look for how its getting there. If you pay someone to find this, it could cost hundreds & hundreds of dollars. All they have to do is say it took 15 hours, instead of the 1 or 2 it really took.

Title: Re: Should I call TAPS?
Post by Tropical Savage on 04/21/09 at 12:21:07

445B5D5A4740714171495B571C2E0 wrote:

I'll try to do that.