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Message started by haulback on 04/19/09 at 18:14:10

Title: air filter question
Post by haulback on 04/19/09 at 18:14:10

Just ordered lancer jetset for my '08 S40.

Wondering in anyone hass had experience with the K&N filter that is a drop-in replacement for the stock one?? part # su-6595...

I understnd that the K&N cone filter is better, and would be happy to use it, but an unsure how much drama is involved in modifying the airbox etc to make it all fit inside.

I did find and older post that had a bunch of pictures with it showing the process, but they had all been sent to photobucket, and for some reason I can't seem to get in for a look

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1118719528

If it is too big a deal, I may wait and do the cone filter when I swap out the stock muffler later on.

Thanks......

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by verslagen1 on 04/19/09 at 18:20:58

The change over from stock to k&n may not need a change in jet if you have already richened it up from stock. I had a 150 in and swapped, didn't notice much difference in popping.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by serowbot on 04/19/09 at 18:23:50

The drop in k/n filter takes no modding to fit, and it is better than the cone... the cone does not fit inside the airbox, it is outside the box..
The cone is cheaper. And if you don't like the look of the airbox, the cone filter allows you to get rid of it. But the airbox is there for a reason. Reducing intake noise and intake air turbulance, and protecting the filter from weather.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/19/09 at 19:36:37

Serowbot is 100% on. The airbox is designed to smooth air turbulence among other things. Turbulence decreases performance. The famous racer Smokey Yurnick in his book "Hot Rodding the Small Block Chevy" proved this, and advised performance enthusiasts to leave the air cleaner housing on an engine. Eliminating air turbulence is a science and you can't just change the factory design and think you've achieved it, without the proper test equipment.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by diamond jim on 04/19/09 at 19:49:37

Ditto. Do the testing if you want to change the design and maximize the potential. It's labor and time intensive but definitely well worth it.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by serowbot on 04/19/09 at 23:55:47

615254485552200 wrote:

Serowbot is 100% on.

222F272B2928222C2F2B460 wrote:

Ditto.

Geez!,... I love it when I'm 100% right... ;D
wait a minute?.. :-?... It's never happened before,....
thinkin',...thinkin', thinkin'.... :-/
Yup, I love it.... ;D

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by haulback on 04/20/09 at 06:32:21

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Because of all the chat about switching to cone filter, I naturally though it was to be preferred. Nice to find that the drop-in replacement is actually more efficent.

Although forums being what they are, there maybe others that disagree.

However,I will go ahead and order a su-6595

thanks again.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by PTRider on 04/20/09 at 07:31:33

Filter efficiency is measured on how much dirt the filter catches vs. how much it allows to pass through, not how well the air flows through it.* No filter element is 100% efficient (i. e., catches all the dirt). What we want is a filter that allows as much flow as possible for as long as possible while stopping just about every particle big enough to cause engine wear.

I'm not a K&N fan, so....

Has anyone done any good testing on the performance of a new OEM air filter element vs. a new aftermarket stock-type element like a $15 HiFloFiltro vs. a new or newly cleaned $60 K&N element?

In my car I've seen the poor filtration of a K&N with dirt on the downstream side of the air box that was never there with an OEM filter element, and the good testing I've seen of the K&N filters has the same results. The tests I've seen show that the K&N filter flows a lot less air than OEM when it is dirty than an OEM filter with the same amount (by weight) of dirt in it. Plus, cleaning and re-oiling the K&N element can be a sloppy mess.

*Filter efficiency is the ratio of particles trapped by a filter over the total number of particles found in the air upstream of the filter. A count of the downstream particles is often used to determine the number of particles trapped by the filter. Filter efficiency can either be based on specific particle size ranges or based on the total number of particles of all sizes. There are numerous testing procedures utilized for determining filter efficiency.
http://www.filterair.info/articles/article.cfm/ArticleID/3CB961AC-F5FA-4A28-B4492B22C7605020

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/20/09 at 07:58:15

Testing of an air filter cannot be done accurately or conclusively without some very expensive equipment. I doubt you will find a more extensive and professional test of air filters anywhere other than this:

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by LANCER on 04/20/09 at 09:45:35

5F6C6A766B6C1E0 wrote:

That is a terrific read.
A gander at the info contained therein is all that is needed. Unless unable, keep the air-box and stock filter element (assuming it is made similar to the AC Delco ) for anything but the most radical engine setup.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/20/09 at 09:52:52

Despite all the info against its use, I use a cheap cone filter anyway cause I like the intake noise. After all, the bike is supposed to be fun, no?

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by serowbot on 04/20/09 at 10:22:42

605355495453210 wrote:

Despite all the info against its use, I use a cheap cone filter anyway cause I like the intake noise. After all, the bike is supposed to be fun, no?

Oh yeah!,.. definitely.... ;D

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by diamond jim on 04/20/09 at 10:26:07

Ditto again!

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Wolf on 04/21/09 at 09:39:37

I currently have my K&N cone filter (#1250) attached to the carb straight up. Has any one compared this setup to leaving the "snorkel" between the carb and filter (be it a cone or factory/aftermarket/airbox filter. Would the added distance help or hurt airflow turbulance/efficiency ...

or, are we looking at nothing but an additional ugly rubber spacer... lol

Wolf :D

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 09:58:43

Just as the exhaust has certain "needs" to work right, so does the intake. Maybe its not as complex, IDK, I dont really get how to tune an exhaust. Ive read a little on intake design & the volume of air between the filter & carb has some effect, according to one article I read. If a guy can get an airbox large enough to hold enough air for an intake stroke, then the power to such air thru the filter wont be lost. I know, its not much & maybe its not even measurable, But, I didnt write the article. Maybe the guys who understand exhausts, like KLX & a few others, would like to get in on this. I need it.Y'all teach some, okay?

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/21/09 at 10:01:33

Air turbulence and its effect on engine performance is a science. Engineers trained in the subject design intake systems to best suit a particular engine, and then extensively test their designs using very expensive equipment in a controlled lab environment. This is necessary because all the conditions have to be the same, for accurate comparisons of different designs. Changing a design and then taking the vehicle out on the road to 'see if it runs better', ignores all the differences you will encounter each time you take the vehicle out on the road, such as wind resistance, barometric conditions, varying temperatures of the engine, traffic and road conditions, inconsistencies in the way the driver operates the vehicle, and more. I installed a cheap cone filter right on the carb just because I like the noise, and noticed no difference in performance from the stock configuration. Add Lancer's fine jet set and a Harley muffler, and you will feel a difference. But for me, changing to a cone made no difference, and although a dynamometer and flow-meter would probably show a difference since the cone affects turbulence, it isn't enough on this bike for me to notice.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by diamond jim on 04/21/09 at 10:01:40

Yep. The tube makes a big difference. The stock airbox is a performance compromise and a direct pod filter on the carb is a performance compromise. They both work great and do their intended jobs well but both designs are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. However, having the tube with a freer breathing filter puts you in between. Such a design is surprisingly sensitive to very small changes. I was quite rewarded when I matched the tube and filter design to my riding style. It made the biggest difference performace-wise thus far than any other mod I've done. It doesn't take much work to get the design "almost there". It's the fine tuning that requires patience.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 10:07:20

Would it be hard to put a sleeve on a tube so the length could be adjusted just by sliding the sleeve in or out on the tube?
Would there be a scientific approach to determine the volume or length of the tube?

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by diamond jim on 04/21/09 at 10:19:07

Ha ha, Gort! I knew you'd chime in with the "gotta see it on paper, tested this particular way using this particular test equipment that lives up to these particular standards or else it can't be recognized and any information reported otherwise is worthless" mentality.

Wolf, it's your bike. Do whatever you want. Research stuff if you want to know. You don't have to just take mine or anyone's elses opinion. If your bike makes you grin then the mods are a success.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/21/09 at 10:35:18

Nonsense. For many, many years amateurs who think they know better, dismantle or change what the designers of a vehicle spent great sums of $ and time developing, then test the change under un-controlled conditions, and then claim their re-design to be superior. This is not new and there have been endless articles about this problem over many years. One of the most famous was the assumption that if you remove an air cleaner from an engine, it runs better, or if you install an air-scoop, you get more power, and so on and so on. When someone on this site asks an opinion, and if I have the facts to back mine up, I will offer it. Its wrong to mis-lead someone who is seeking help with unproven advice. Thats how mis-information spreads.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by SV og LS on 04/21/09 at 11:34:32

6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:

A few bikes have electronically controlled variable length inlet 'trumpets'.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/09 at 11:52:05

Good point Gort. With the Savage we have a frame built to create the dimensions/geometry & hold all the main parts in the right places to make it all fit. The frame has a given amount of room for the air box. I am betting the intake design is as good a compromise they could come up with that would feed the engine & fit in the frame. The intake noise has to be controlled for the Goobs to approve the bike for sale.
Well, I gotta go, Ill finish later.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by diamond jim on 04/21/09 at 18:39:40

Just experiment. If the bike runs better, great. I believe you are capable of telling if there is a difference or not. When we shave the white spacer, change the fork oil weight, mod the exhaust, add a fork brace, etc., we don't need to go and have special testing done to prove to ourselves that it runs better. At least I don't. If you can tell a difference on your bike, well, that's good enough for me.

Play around with the intake. I messed around with mine for several weeks. No mod has ever held my attention for as long as the intake mod did. Were it not for the results I experienced on my bike when I first started the intake mods, I never would have had the enthusiasm to keep experimenting nor posting results. I would have been riding instead. But the results surpised the heck out of me on my bike. I made so many devices and setups for testing and experimenting with the different intake designs that I've got science experiments built for the three kid's science fair projects for the next 5 years!

I posted that no one would likely believe it and I was right. But I reported what I experienced with my bike. Maybe my exhaust, carb setup, intake setup, environment I ride and riding style all work together in some kind of funky harmony. I don't know. But I do know that I love it and ain't ever going back no matter what somebody else extrapolates from a book about car engine tuning or a website that promotes a sponsors air filter by saying it performed best in testing. I've bought enough pipes and fuel processors that were "proven" to make a difference that didn't seem to do much for me.

If you experiment and say it runs better for you and you want to share it then I believe you. You're not selling anything. You've got no stake in it. You've got nothing to gain or lose. Experiment and if you want to share the results then do so. That's how we've developed a collection of awesome mods like raising the seat, shaving the white spacer, modding the cam chain adjuster, swapping to a chain drive, etc. People were willing to try something new, discovered some cool results and shared them, each with their own naysayers. It kind of reminds me of my seat mod on my S40 and other bikes- they say it can't be comfortable. I love it and it works great for me.

It somewhat reminds me of my work- a woman has 15 years experience in my specialty field but becuase she dosn't have certain letters after her name others try to tell me she's not capable of teaching students how to do the job. That's ironic cause she's one of the best around. Similarly, how many of us are certified and credentialed motorcycle mechanics? I guess that means very, very few of us are qualified to work on our bikes or are capable of determining if the work we do improves the bike or not.

But back to the intake- I'm glad many of you helped me out with the intake mod via some very helpful feedback.

Title: Re: air filter question
Post by Gort on 04/21/09 at 21:55:48

DJ, why take offense at posts that are in response to questions from other members? No one is addressing you with a criticism. What do you care what other peoples' opinions are, so long as they are not attacking you? Why accuse others as "naysayers" or as "chiming in" just because their opinions differ from yours? Why not just state your opinion, back it up with links or whatever test results or info/pics you may have, and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here appreciates the efforts you go to post your info and pictures. Myself, I respect members like you who contribute, because they do so for no other reason than to try and help other members. Whether or not someone agrees with the subject presented in the contribution, they have to give the contributor credit for his efforts.