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Message started by NewThumperGuy on 04/09/09 at 12:31:00

Title: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/09/09 at 12:31:00

Me again...lol

I just got the bike together after correcting the carb set up the mechanic I payed to do it messed it up.
The bike is set up with the K&N cone filter, 152.5 main jet, spacer mod with a single #4 washer from Lancers kit in its place and a SE II exhaust. My mix screw is about 3/4 turn out.
The problem is it still seems to be running rough. I still have backfires and my idle isn't consistent. After a run and a couple starts my idle got a little worse and it even stalled on me a couple times.
My carb appeared nice and clean and I'm at about 250m elevation.

Where do I go from here? Would adding another washer to the needle help?

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by matt_savage on 04/09/09 at 12:35:37

The idle is mostly controlled through the pilot jet (dont see where you said what size jet you have installed) as well as the idle mix screw on the right side of the carb. The needle jet and accompanying spacers are responsible for mid range throttle performance and the main jet is for upper level of throttle performance. Tweaking of the pilot jet and idle mix screw can usually fix most if not all idle problems. Hope this helps and read some of the carb tuning threads in the tech. section.

-matt

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by High-Def on 04/09/09 at 12:58:22

697B7C7B6C73771E0 wrote:

K&N cone filter

What size K&N cone filter did you use? Do you know the part#?

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by diamond jim on 04/09/09 at 13:21:42

3D3124240F233126313735500 wrote:

Matt, were there a Nobel Prize awarded for Motorcycle Forum Responses, you'd get my vote. That was right on the money!

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/09 at 14:43:37

what does your plug look like?

I assume you have the 55 pilot jet.

Check you idle rpm.

I would go stock on the needle spacing untill you have the main and pilot jets worked out, unless there's severe stumbling.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by matt_savage on 04/09/09 at 15:10:18

DJ,

It's amazing what a little research/reading past posts will do knowledge wise! I've only been working on my bike myself for about 2 months! I've just re-jetted my own carb but have yet to get it back to the point where I can fine tune it while running.

new guy,

-best advise I can give it to go out and tweak it till you turn purple, literally. And read up and ask questions in the meantime. Only a certain # of variables for the idle problems but you should be able to get it right where you need it. HTH

-Matt

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/10/09 at 03:45:46

Thx guys

Matt, Verslagen1- I have the pilot from Lancers Kit. I do believe it is a #55 pilot. I did pull it to look and it was the one with the holes vs the stock one in my baggy with out. I have yet to tear down again and check the plug.
I think I will add a couple more washers to the needle and give the jet locations a blast of cleaner. Does the diameter of the #4 washers matter? The ones meachanic gave me are a little smaller.
I also had to go back to him to see about the spring off my needle, he gave me a "mikuni" spring from a kit he had to replace the old one. It was about the same length as the one in the picture but in closer to the needle itself. Would this make a difference?

High-Def as for the filter I got it from Lancer when I bought my jet kit, sorry but unfortunately I don't know the part # off hand.

Well off to do some reading again ;)

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by LANCER on 04/10/09 at 04:07:38

Sounds to me like you are still too rich.

Rough running ... rich
Warm up and it gets worse ... yep, too rich
Go back to the #52.5 pilot and readjust ... if you do not have a good one on hand I think I have one with me I can send, but will need to check ( I am visiting my daughter in NC for a couple of weeks). It is possible to get backfires with a too rich condition, though not as common as a too lean condition. Remember, backfiring is a result of umburned fuel collecting in the exhaust pipe and the igniting later when heat and O2 are added.

Using a single washer on the needle is too much; I would suggest that you use 3 on it. You will get clean responsive power with the correct setup for 1/4 to 3/4 throttle. The responsiveness anywhere in that range should be quick and clean; no bogging or hesitation or shudder or coughing or etc etc .... just instant response, and if not then your setting is off.
If it is too rich then it is sluggish, hesitant and/or bogging.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by diamond jim on 04/10/09 at 08:58:24

Lancer, that is an wesome explanation. Sometimes the words "rich" or "lean" can be a little vague. But describing it as bogging, hesitation, shudder, coughing, sluggish, etc., really helps out. I can identify with each of those terms at some point during tuning and it was often isolated to a specific area such as warm-up idle, hot idle, acceleration, decleration, steady riding, etc.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by ralfyguy on 04/10/09 at 10:44:53

Same elevation here, and did the same mods with the Lancer kit, except I put three washers under the needle. I had the same problems you describe. i had to go back to the OEM 52.5 pilot to make it run right at idle again. At the same time the popping came back. No popping with bleeder 55 pilot, but awful running otherwise. I also had to pu the 145 main back in, because even with 150 main it was fouling the plug at WOT. It ran better if I backed off a tad from WOT. So this shows it's too rich. The only thing that REALLY improved the ride was rplacing the spacer with three of Lancer's washers. The thorttle response very clean, very quick, very accurate, seamless all the way up to WOT. Every little change to throttle position is very precise. The inside of the muffler gets grey on longer trips, darker in town on short trips. No bogging even in cold weather,even after pushing the choke back in after a few hundred feet. Idle screw is at 2 1/4 turns out.

You need to go back to the OEM pilot, and maybe at least down to the 150 main.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by dasch on 04/10/09 at 11:41:05

Or radical approach: go back all the way to stock carb setup, not forgetting the mix screw and start from there. Fix your idle/low range first (idle jet, mix screw AND idle speed), midrange (needle/washers) second, main the last. Ride and ride and ride between steps. Ride cold, ride hot, ride WOT, ride looong 25-30mph coasts in high gears low throttle, ride short WOT then sudden stop and hit clutch... Simulate natural situations, and remember: you need it just as reliable as stock is, in all possible regimes. Takes a while, but it's fun ;-)

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by diamond jim on 04/10/09 at 12:54:18

I had to mess with mine for a while cause I jumped in and did shotgun approach. I should have done the one by one.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by dasch on 04/10/09 at 14:05:00

Yeah, me too ;-) That's why I'm sayin' this...

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/10/09 at 17:13:00

Lancer your input is always greatly appreciated knowing your experience with carbs. I will do as you mentioned regarding the pilot jet. I'm unsure of it's condition due to my lack of knowledge as to what I'm looking for exactly. I was originally going to go with 3 washers but I read here somewhere about complete removal close to sea level plus the smaller diameter #4 washers from the mechanic helped deter me also.

ralfyguy thanks for sharing your similar experience, a great help also. I was also thinking of dropping back to the 150 main just to see if it would help.

What's the quickest way to get the carb in and out for you guys? My K&N is getting pretty beat up from the squeezing and forcing! Thinking of pulling the battery box this time and lowering it down.

Jim, dasch, I'm hearing yas loud and clear. Total shot gun approach this round. Jumped right in with both feet, figured if I'm takin her down should take care of a few things all at the same time lol
Best way to learn though, the HARD WAY!!!!! ;D

So next change will be add 2 more #4 washers to the needle, swap 152.5 main for 150, and go back to the 52.5 pilot, readjust mix screw and report back to you all. I plan to get the work done over the weekend and will reinstall early next week.

Thanks again everyone. Dont know what I'd do without this site and you fellow members.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by ralfyguy on 04/10/09 at 18:51:18

I pulled the battery and box out of mine. More relaxing way to work on the carb.
I am actually surprised that at a low altitude as mine, I have to run the small jets compared to other people to make it run decent. i have to admit that I run the stock airfilter, but I also run a gutted stock muffler. The only thing left in my muffler is the plate near the joint where it meets the header. The plate has three holes in it.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by dasch on 04/10/09 at 23:49:29

Good luck with it. Post progress (regress?? :-) and we all go from there together.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/11/09 at 09:08:48

Curious should I have the washer between the spring and the clip as shown in the carb specs pic (#7)???

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1098869040

Certain way for plate to go back in? small overlap of holes in plate with two little openings?

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/12/09 at 06:38:38

Anyone? Just want to be sure before I reinstall.

I can see I will be having an interesting time finding the replacement bolts I need for the savage. Having to search stores for a couple bolts? Ridiculous! How hard is it to keep a few in stock for the odd customer in need???

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by ralfyguy on 04/12/09 at 07:45:51

7A686F687F60640D0 wrote:

The washer needs to be there, so the ends of the spring don't get tangled in the clip. The little round plate has a dimple that needs to be facing DOWN. Be sure not to touch the slide with your fingers, as it will make it stick later on. Pay attention to the little ear on the membrane. Make sure it gets in the notch on top of the carb when you reassemble.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by dr1445 on 04/12/09 at 08:26:41

anyone ever try a bigger air jet with the 55 pilot jet. it looks like the only way to get a bigger air jet is to drill out a stock air jet. is that feasible?

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by diamond jim on 04/12/09 at 08:28:36

What exactly is the purpose of the nipple? I'm thinking that the little holes in the plate are for air movement/vacuum for the slide and that the nipple is there to ensure a gap should the spacer spacer be completely removed. But honestly I don't really know.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/carbplatenipple.jpg

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/12/09 at 08:38:00

Thx ralfyguy, good thing I asked cause I think I put my dimple facing up. As for the washer, I just had not seen it in a couple pics so wanted to be sure not an error.
I plan to wipe down the slide with some carb cleaner before reinstalling to ensure no sticking.
Got the ear covered too.

Thx again. Much appreciated.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by diamond jim on 04/12/09 at 09:05:56

Don't wipe the plastic slide with carb cleaner though. That might scuff it up a little and invite friction then sticking. I don't know if it helps or not but I put treadmill lubricating silicone on the plastic part and wiped it off. That made it super slick. It''s the stuff that goes between the rubber belt and the plastic support housing. I also coated the inside where the slide moves and wiped it off as well. I first tested it by putting some of the liquid silicone on some other similar plastic, doused it with gas, let it sit then checked for any gumming or problems. None were found and it remained super slick. Again, don't know if it helps or not.

Title: Re: Advice needed......not running the greatest!
Post by NewThumperGuy on 04/17/09 at 16:55:02

28252D212322282625214C0 wrote:

All your advice helps Jim.

Well added the two washers to the needle and swapped the 152.5 for the 150 main jet. Mixture screw out all the way and back 1/2 turn.
I have a stable idle and initial throttle reponse seems great. I have yet to take her out for a good test yet but hoping my ruff running problems are solved.
I did get thinking as to why I swapped to the 150 main since when the 152.5 was in there it screamed at 3/4 - full throttle and there was a huge speed gain?? :-?
Guess we'll know the differences soon enough! ;)