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Message started by gerald.hughes on 03/21/09 at 19:39:04

Title: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by gerald.hughes on 03/21/09 at 19:39:04

Question for the techies. I weigh 300 pounds, and when I ride over 65 mph, my oil consumption goes up rather dramatically-from practically none between oil changes to about a half quart in 1000 miles. ( I should also mention that my mpg stays above 50, even with my weight and the higher speeds.)

My question is, how many rings does the LS650 piston have? Does it have an oil sweeper ring? Would installing a piston with more rings reduce the oil usage?

Thanks

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 03/21/09 at 22:26:13

2, a compression ring and an oil ring.

Also, oil could be dripping down the valve stems.

Your weight will only factor in WOT acceleration, so no need to mention it unless you're trying to impress someone. ::)

What jets are you running?

When I forget to take the choke off, my oil comsumption goes up for awhile.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by gerald.hughes on 03/21/09 at 23:25:52

Thanks for the response, but I am still a little confused. I mention my weight, because it does affect the load on the engine. When Serowbot twists the throttle, his bike rockets forward. When I twist the throttle, I can feel the engine working harder, and I slowly increase speed. Carry a passenger on your bike and tell me that you do not feel the difference.

Also, as I understand it, and that of course is open to question, any leakage down the valve stems should be constant, and should really only show an increase with increased rpms. Running at higher rpms in lower gears around town does not result in the increase in oil usage. It only take place at speeds in excess of 65.

Most of the bikes that I have owned over the past decade or so have had two compression rings, and an oil sweeper ring. I wonder if this would not be a change to make when it is time to rebuild the top end.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Oldfeller on 03/22/09 at 04:33:30

Do any aftermarket piston people offer a 3 ring piston for our bikes? Wiseco? There are only a couple of aftermarket Suzuki pistons out there. Maybe one of them is a three ringer.

===============

I will offer you a different thought on your oil consumption -- ponder it and then toss it because it is just one of those alternate possibility thoughts.

When we ride at high RPM top speeds we are churning the oil to the max with the crank and gears and cam chain and all. Our oil pump is at max pressure and highest flow rate and a lot of oil being tossed up and puddled in the cam pool up in the head where it is getting all frothed and blenderized by the spinning cam lobes and rocker shafts.

Oil gear frothing is at the max level down in the gear box too, so the increased interstate speed level blow by coming from the big 2 ring piston has the maximum chance to carry some frothed oil out with it when it exits the engine up at the head dump tube that runs to the air box.

Suzuki recognizes this blow by driven frothed oil movement goes on -- they put a durn reservoir on the bottom side of your air box to catch it and hold it and then gave you a dump tube to open to let the mess out every time you change the oil.

This is a design based factory recognized phenomenon with a factory provided catch reservoir to back it up.

My bike doesn't use any oil really unless I hit the open road and run at speed for a while. I can run though 1/8 quart in a hard high speed riding day so I always carry oil with me for road trips.

Big singles use oil -- all of them do to some degree. A Savage uses relatively more oil than most with its single compression ring, oil loss through 4 valve stems, blow by out the compression dump tube, misc. known leakage points (rubber plug, clutch lever, speedo connect etc). All of these things get worse with higher road speeds as internal blow by pressurization levels go up inside the engine case.

Good news is the Savage doesn't sit on its side stand just weeping oil through every vertical case seal and side cover, etc like an old Harley used to do. At least our bikes are well sealed from gravity driven leaks.

I followed Ed after we got his alternator case crack epoxied back shut. Ed had put a bit too much oil back into the bike (he ran an oil cooler with no check valves and he couldn't use the sight glass as his oil level indicator with complete accuracy). I watched oil coming out of his overflowing air box dripping down hitting his exhaust system making a smoky mess so I know first hand that blow by driven frothed oil can exit your top bypass dump tube when you run at interstate speeds.

======================

All you guys do realize that oil expands 3-5% when it gets hot, right?

You always check your oil at the same temperature (cold would be better) but you never fall in the trap of thinking you lost or gained oil simply because it changed its temperature?

Right?

If you check cold and think you need some, add it and check it hot next time you may think you have too much oil in there.

And finding the same "level spot" to do the checking on counts for a lot too.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by T Mack 1 on 03/22/09 at 09:05:41

Excuse me , ... the stock and oversize pistons on the LS650 have three rings...... 2 compression and 1 oil ring.

here's a picture of my oversize and the melted stock.

http://www.users.fast.net/~tommack/photos/100_1951.JPG

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 03/22/09 at 10:00:50

Well if you're going to ask a loaded question of someone too tired to check his facts at dam near midnight when he got up at 6 and wrenched, pounded, sawed, riveted his brothers car all day... then flog away. http://verslagen.savageriders.com/smiley/horse.gif

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by gerald.hughes on 03/22/09 at 10:38:46

I really appreciate all the feedback. It makes me feel a little better about the oil usage. As was pointed out, at least it isn't dripping all over the ground. Also, as long as my mileage stays up there, I don't think that it is time yet for a top end. Hell, I only have 10K on the bike.

Another thought. Since the Savage has been in production for so long, is it possible that earlier bikes had two rings, and at some point they added a second compression ring?

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Oldfeller on 03/22/09 at 13:29:33

Naw, Verslagen has an old one and a new one and if there were any ring count differences between them he wouldn't have been a' flogging his donkey like that.

Actually, I don't think ring wear has ever really been much of an issue with Savage, we have seized up and scrubbed up some aluminum pistons before on the list with no real damage even done to the cylinder bores.

I think we blow by some oil, we blow out some oil through the dump tube system and we weep some oil past worn valve seals. I think if you use enough oil to top it off fairly frequently it winds up keeping the additive packages in your oil "fresher" and so far nobody has discovered any real downsides from mild oil usage.

PLEASE, do remember to blow out or Gunk degrease and hose out your spark plug hole really really good before pulling the plug out -- sand is not your friend and it lives down inside that greasy dirty hole just waiting to jump on top of your piston.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Reelthing on 03/23/09 at 10:25:24

282A3D2E232B61273A28272A3C4F0 wrote:

Sounds like very normal oil consumption given the higher rpm's your running when above 65mph - these single cylinder engines huff and puff a great deal more than a multi cylinder as there is no place for the air under the piston to go on the down stroke except out the head breather tube - this carries some amount of oil mist/vapor with it - a little heavier oil has worked very well for me.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Tailgunner on 08/19/13 at 07:24:58

I'm getting very confused with my savage's oil consumption. At first I started with removing all engine external leakeges. Didn't help at all, even though there were some significant leaks. The compression is very good, about 12bars. Engine performance is excellent, no problems with starting, torque and power seems brilliant to me. Completely no visible smokes coming out of exhaust.

I filled it with oil to max level. Went on a 250 miles trip. Now oil is barely at min level, I have to tilt the motorcycle a bit to the right from upward position to see oil in the window. As I assume the difference between min and max is 1 litre, this would give 4l oil consumption per 1000 miles. This is INSANE ?! For such oil consumption it should smoke blue as hell...

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Dave on 08/19/13 at 08:06:19

I have owned my Savage a bit more than a year....and I have been pulling it apart and putting it back together with so much new stuff it is hard for me to see any patterns.....and when I ride over 65 mph it is only for short periods......so I got no facts to add.

It would be interesting to know if the huffing/puffing through the vent tube is a big factor in oil consumption at higher rpm's.....it may be possible to monitor your air filter oil drain during normal rides and fast rides and see if you get more oil drained out after a fast ride. There may not be much difference if the oil mist is fine enough that it does not settle and just gets pulled into the carb throat and burned.

I have read on some of the DR650 forums that they jave increase oil consumption at sustained highway speeds.

Here is a photo of the stock and Wiseco pistons...same number of rings with 2 compression and 1 oil control ring.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/13 at 08:30:23

I don't think the speed of the trip will make it any worse then if you went slow.
My commute is typically a half hour at 60 to 70 with some extra giggles thrown in here and there.

Worn out rings, I'll consume a qt every 1000, new engine, no consumption.
But it will vary between summer and winter. With winter I was getting much less consumption.

If it's heat related, it certainly will be more evident during summer. Head temps morning or afternoon in the winter are about 280°F Highest I've seen is 320 though.

If you look into your sparkplug hole with a borescope you'll find that the top of the piston is covered in carbon... there'll your oil.

And I guess it doesn't smoke because it's burning with the combustion cycle rather than as if you had leaking valve seals.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 08:33:25

& if ya pull the plug & Dont Clean Out down in that hole FIRST, its only gonna get worse..

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by WD on 08/19/13 at 08:44:17

My bike was 2 when it set its personal worst oil consumption record. 2 quarts in less than 5 hours. Rode from Memphis TN to Sturgis MS, a total of 203 to 205 miles.

I have not, and will not, run 10W40 full synthetic since then. Won't run dino 10W40. Big piston, sustained speeds, and high ambient temps use oil.

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by Jsud04 on 05/04/14 at 14:57:25

0C1F5B0 wrote:

Begging the question, what oil do you use? :-?

Title: Re: Rings and Oil Consumption
Post by WD on 05/04/14 at 23:37:04

15W40 winter. 15W40, 20W50 or 30HD in the warmer months, depending on what is on sale. Regular old dinosaur juice for heavy duty on highway diesels or pre-1988 gasoline engines.

If Mobil Red Top 15W50 was still wet clutch safe, I'd be running it exclusively.